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Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

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Mapmikey

#1525
Quote
What about SB, can they benefit from this also?  Use the express lanes in D.C. with less than 3 persons, get off at the Pentagon, pick up slugs and get back on?  Slug-Lines.com needs to research that.

Per this page (scroll way down and select driving near pentagon) there is no toll barrier on the SB ramp to Eads.  Unless they place a toll reader on the express lane itself before that ramp the trip would be free anyway?

Pdf pg 15 has a diagram that suggests there is no SB toll gantry before Eads.


AlexandriaVA

Quote from: Beltway on October 02, 2019, 10:04:49 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2019, 09:41:27 AM
I guess this is to cover "Person A", who picks up sluggers down south who themselves want to be dropped off at the Pentagon, whereas Person A doesn't have a need to park at the Pentagon. Person A can then continue to DC free of charge (I guess there's a charge between Eads and the 14th Street bridge?)
For HOT-3 and less than 3 occupants apparently yes, excepting the vehicles who get off and on at Eads Street.

What about SB, can they benefit from this also?  Use the express lanes in D.C. with less than 3 persons, get off at the Pentagon, pick up slugs and get back on?  Slug-Lines.com needs to research that.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2019, 09:41:27 AM
This might be one of the most niche/localized aspects of the Interstate Highway System I can think of. While out-of-towners could conceivably figure out the reversible HOT lane system on 395, this is locals only.
Locals being someone as far as the Fredericksburg area who commute into D.C.

I use the I-495 HOT lanes about 3 times per year and the I-95 HOT lanes 8 or 10 times per year, and enjoy the benefit as I have posted before.

My trips don't include I-395 so other than one time to take a look at it I won't need to use them.

I have made the rare trip thru D.C. in lieu of taking the Beltway around the east side, but other than with some major traffic incident it is not a competitive alternative.  The new 11th Street Bridge and DC-295 interchange completion does provide a continuous freeway route thru the city, but I don't know how much if any traffic it diverts from the Beltway.


Coming from the South Arlington/West Alexandria area, 11th Street bridge has been a great connector to the I-95/US-1/B-W Parkway corridor. Previous you either had to take some local road detours, or a longer freeway detour. Even with the issues of I-295, it's now a more robust network for those coming from the inner suburbs.

Beltway

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2019, 10:51:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 02, 2019, 10:04:49 AM
I have made the rare trip thru D.C. in lieu of taking the Beltway around the east side, but other than with some major traffic incident it is not a competitive alternative.  The new 11th Street Bridge and DC-295 interchange completion does provide a continuous freeway route thru the city, but I don't know how much if any traffic it diverts from the Beltway.
Coming from the South Arlington/West Alexandria area, 11th Street bridge has been a great connector to the I-95/US-1/B-W Parkway corridor. Previous you either had to take some local road detours, or a longer freeway detour. Even with the issues of I-295, it's now a more robust network for those coming from the inner suburbs.
Definitely agree that it has improved connections in the inner suburbs, connecting I-395 and I-66 to the Anacostia Freeway.

But not really designed to be an I-95 bypass.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

Quote from: Mapmikey on October 02, 2019, 10:33:30 AM
Quote
What about SB, can they benefit from this also?  Use the express lanes in D.C. with less than 3 persons, get off at the Pentagon, pick up slugs and get back on?  Slug-Lines.com needs to research that.

Per this page (scroll way down and select driving near pentagon) there is no toll barrier on the SB ramp to Eads.  Unless they place a toll reader on the express lane itself before that ramp the trip would be free anyway?

Pdf pg 15 has a diagram that suggests there is no SB toll gantry before Eads.

I haven't driven into the District in a while, but I plan to do so on Columbus Day due to the combination of not having the day off, light traffic and no HOV restrictions because the feds will have off, and a Caps game that night. I'll try to keep my eyes open to see what gantries are in that area.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

#1529
I'll try to take a look at the Eads St area when I'm up that way today.

Separately, while out on foot yesterday, I noticed that there is a price information board at the intersection of Martha Custis Dr. and Gunston Dr.  (in the Parkfairfax neigborhood). This is the first time I can recall a HOT toll information board being placed in a residential area*, rather than a median or other road-related ROW.

I've set Google Street View to look at the approximate position of the new board (obviously doesn't show in the current GSV image). It's on the patch of grass with the dirt path running through it. Actually you might be able to see the concrete base in this current image: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.840362,-77.0834056,3a,75y,313.82h,87.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2Z2WZPeCf0vt7_uEAw1oIA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D2Z2WZPeCf0vt7_uEAw1oIA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D217.29196%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

*This, BTW, is why I roll my eye and don't pay too much attention to the discussions on widening highways (395, 66, etc) inside the Beltway. There's effectively zero buffer land or excess ROW anywhere along these corridors. Unless you're going to eminent domain dozens of houses and apartments, and hundreds (thousands?) of residents, it's all moot.

1995hoo

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 04, 2019, 10:28:30 AM
....

Separately, while out on foot yesterday, I noticed that there is a price information board at the intersection of Martha Custis Dr. and Gunston Dr.  (in the Parkfairfax neigborhood). This is the first time I can recall a HOT toll information board being placed in a residential area*, rather than a median or other road-related ROW.

....

It makes good sense to put the sign there because it allows people to see the information before entering Shirlington Circle. The circle is busy and usually requires you devote your full attention to the road (and other traffic) such that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to see pricing information once you're on the circle–plus it's such a short distance to the HOV ramp that putting the sign there wouldn't give you much time to see it and decide whether to pay.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 04, 2019, 01:18:26 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 04, 2019, 10:28:30 AM
....

Separately, while out on foot yesterday, I noticed that there is a price information board at the intersection of Martha Custis Dr. and Gunston Dr.  (in the Parkfairfax neigborhood). This is the first time I can recall a HOT toll information board being placed in a residential area*, rather than a median or other road-related ROW.

....

It makes good sense to put the sign there because it allows people to see the information before entering Shirlington Circle. The circle is busy and usually requires you devote your full attention to the road (and other traffic) such that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to see pricing information once you're on the circle–plus it's such a short distance to the HOV ramp that putting the sign there wouldn't give you much time to see it and decide whether to pay.
Just make a circuit around the circle and you buy yourself more time  :sombrero:

Beltway

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 04, 2019, 02:28:14 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 04, 2019, 01:18:26 PM
It makes good sense to put the sign there because it allows people to see the information before entering Shirlington Circle. The circle is busy and usually requires you devote your full attention to the road (and other traffic) such that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to see pricing information once you're on the circle–plus it's such a short distance to the HOV ramp that putting the sign there wouldn't give you much time to see it and decide whether to pay.
Just make a circuit around the circle and you buy yourself more time  :sombrero:

That loop is a lot longer than the original Shirlington Circle!  :-)

And I did drive it.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

AlexandriaVA

I've had out-of-town company this weekend from middle America (i.e. regular interstate arrangements), and I was attempting to explain the local HO/T setup to them, and I realized in explaining it to them that it's really, really confusing if you're not a local. After all, 395, 66, and 495 all have different HO/T layouts and rules (with respect to carriageways and hours).

sprjus4

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
I've had out-of-town company this weekend from middle America (i.e. regular interstate arrangements), and I was attempting to explain the local HO/T setup to them, and I realized in explaining it to them that it's really, really confusing if you're not a local. After all, 395, 66, and 495 all have different HO/T layouts and rules (with respect to carriageways and hours).
Then not to mention the tolling aspect, out of state drivers, having to have a Flex for HOV, etc.

One thing I really liked about HOV is that it's universal and simple - if you're HOV, you can ride it. You don't need to worry about prices, special transponders, etc.

This is one of the reasons I don't use any HO/T facilities out of state - mostly because I can't without getting toll by plate. So far I've only used the I-95 / 495 lanes and 64. The toll lanes in North Carolina along I-77 and under construction I-485 is operated the same as in Virginia, and you can even use an E-ZPass Flex on it for HOV mode, and it will accept it.

Yet another reason we need a universal transponder and HOV reading system for the country instead of split up between regions. For instance, if I traveled I-77 in N.C., I could easily use it with HOV for free because it's exactly like VA's and I'm familiar with it. Now imagine toll lanes in Los Angeles for instance being the same system, and universally using them. I'd certainly use it in that case, especially if HOV, but not when I gotta worry about rental car fees, tolls, etc. This applies with any toll road as well.

1995hoo

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
I've had out-of-town company this weekend from middle America (i.e. regular interstate arrangements), and I was attempting to explain the local HO/T setup to them, and I realized in explaining it to them that it's really, really confusing if you're not a local. After all, 395, 66, and 495 all have different HO/T layouts and rules (with respect to carriageways and hours).

I had an easy time of it when our relatives from Phoenix were here a few years back: "Don't go into the express lanes on the Beltway. You don't have an E-ZPass to pay the toll."

I had a harder time explaining the Dulles Access Road in a way they could visualize and resorted to using Street View to explain the configuration.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

#1536
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 13, 2019, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2019, 09:39:36 AM
I've had out-of-town company this weekend from middle America (i.e. regular interstate arrangements), and I was attempting to explain the local HO/T setup to them, and I realized in explaining it to them that it's really, really confusing if you're not a local. After all, 395, 66, and 495 all have different HO/T layouts and rules (with respect to carriageways and hours).

I had an easy time of it when our relatives from Phoenix were here a few years back: "Don't go into the express lanes on the Beltway. You don't have an E-ZPass to pay the toll."

I had a harder time explaining the Dulles Access Road in a way they could visualize and resorted to using Street View to explain the configuration.

Point taken, but the Beltway is the easiest of the roads to explain. For instance, we explained I-66 in terms of "you can use I-66 anytime you want, except for peak-direction rush hour" (we did have to further define peak-direction rush hour concepts). I think our visitors weren't quite getting that there are no separated lanes for HO/T and general purpose on I-66 (whereas I think most people would understand the idea of physically-separated carriageways, particularly in the manner of the Beltway).

In other words, some of the discussion on their end implied the question "where exactly are the express lanes in I-66?" not realizing that they were on them in the first place.

sprjus4

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 13, 2019, 10:55:40 AM
I had an easy time of it when our relatives from Phoenix were here a few years back: "Don't go into the express lanes on the Beltway. You don't have an E-ZPass to pay the toll."
That's just the easy way out  :D

But if you actually wanted to use them when out of town, it takes a few minutes to figure it out, and if you're not pre-planning and just happened to want to use them at the spur of the moment and are non-local, it's pretty much a no-go and the signage isn't that clear as much as they can try and make it.

jeffandnicole

You guys are thinking way too much into it. The area experiences thousands of out of area motorists every day. All they have to do is read the signs. Trying to describe it in more detail isn't needed and is mostly the source of the confusion.

sprjus4

#1539
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2019, 11:17:34 AM
I think our visitors weren't quite getting that there are no separated lanes for HO/T and general purpose on I-66 (whereas I think most people would understand the idea of physically-separated carriageways, particularly in the manner of the Beltway)
As I'm not a local to the Northern Virginia area and my travels up there in the past have taken me near Woodbridge south of the Beltway, I had the same confusion when they were talking a few years ago about making I-66 a HO/T facility. It took me some time to realize there's no physical HO/T lanes, but rather the entire highway is a HO/T facility during peak hours.

I understand moreso the opposition to the hefty tolls on it, especially as it's not optional, it's all the lanes. And the argument that - it's no different when it was HOV except now more people can use it - is also false. They extended the hours, and now are going to increase the threshold to HOV 3+. So all HOV-2 traffic, and traffic that used it during the old free, now tolled hours, along with Airport Traffic gets stiffed.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 13, 2019, 11:23:48 AM
You guys are thinking way too much into it. The area experiences thousands of out of area motorists every day. All they have to do is read the signs. Trying to describe it in more detail isn't needed and is mostly the source of the confusion.
Easy for solo drivers with a standard E-ZPass, but if you're HOV, it gets more confusing. Especially for families driving long-distance and passing thru the area, use of the HO/T lanes might be of interest especially if it's free, but most people don't own an E-ZPass Flex. The only states that utilize E-ZPass flex IIRC is Virginia and North Carolina.

And if you're out of state and don't own an E-ZPass (i.e. you're visiting somebody in the area, there for work or leisure from a non E-ZPass state), you're out of luck, whereas with the HOV lanes as long as you're HOV 3+ you're good.

IIRC, I think that some states have the lanes set up where HOV traffic enters a dedicated set of lanes with no toll gantry to bypass the toll collection area, similar to the traditional HOV where there's no gantry, and SOV traffic uses the toll lane to get the charge. That's the most ideal IMO rather than requiring some special pass.

oscar

Quote from: sprjus4 on October 13, 2019, 11:27:38 AM
As I'm not a local to the Northern Virginia area and my travels up there in the past have taken me near Woodbridge south of the Beltway, I had the same confusion when they were talking a few years ago about making I-66 a HO/T facility. It took me some time to realize there's no physical HO/T lanes, but rather the entire highway is a HO/T facility during peak hours.

I understand moreso the opposition to the hefty tolls on it, especially as it's not optional, it's all the lanes. And the argument that - it's no different when it was HOV except now more people can use it - is also false. They extended the hours, and now are going to increase the threshold to HOV 3+. So all HOV-2 traffic, and traffic that used it during the old free, now tolled hours, along with Airport Traffic gets stiffed.

The hours extensions were pretty modest. As for HOV-3, that's been in the works longer than the HO/T scheme was, as is making HOV (now HO/T) bidirectional to address "reverse commute" congestion. But I was disappointed with the removal of the Dulles Airport exemption, if only that it would undermine efforts to shift air traffic to Dulles from the congested Reagan National airport.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

jeffandnicole

Quote from: sprjus4 on October 13, 2019, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 13, 2019, 11:17:34 AM
I think our visitors weren't quite getting that there are no separated lanes for HO/T and general purpose on I-66 (whereas I think most people would understand the idea of physically-separated carriageways, particularly in the manner of the Beltway)
As I'm not a local to the Northern Virginia area and my travels up there in the past have taken me near Woodbridge south of the Beltway, I had the same confusion when they were talking a few years ago about making I-66 a HO/T facility. It took me some time to realize there's no physical HO/T lanes, but rather the entire highway is a HO/T facility during peak hours.

I understand moreso the opposition to the hefty tolls on it, especially as it's not optional, it's all the lanes. And the argument that - it's no different when it was HOV except now more people can use it - is also false. They extended the hours, and now are going to increase the threshold to HOV 3+. So all HOV-2 traffic, and traffic that used it during the old free, now tolled hours, along with Airport Traffic gets stiffed.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 13, 2019, 11:23:48 AM
You guys are thinking way too much into it. The area experiences thousands of out of area motorists every day. All they have to do is read the signs. Trying to describe it in more detail isn't needed and is mostly the source of the confusion.
Easy for solo drivers with a standard E-ZPass, but if you're HOV, it gets more confusing. Especially for families driving long-distance and passing thru the area, use of the HO/T lanes might be of interest especially if it's free, but most people don't own an E-ZPass Flex. The only states that utilize E-ZPass flex IIRC is Virginia and North Carolina.

And if you're out of state and don't own an E-ZPass (i.e. you're visiting somebody in the area, there for work or leisure from a non E-ZPass state), you're out of luck, whereas with the HOV lanes as long as you're HOV 3+ you're good.

IIRC, I think that some states have the lanes set up where HOV traffic enters a dedicated set of lanes with no toll gantry to bypass the toll collection area, similar to the traditional HOV where there's no gantry, and SOV traffic uses the toll lane to get the charge. That's the most ideal IMO rather than requiring some special pass.

So either they pay or they use the free lanes. Again, nothing unusual, and of the complaints about the tolling, this one doesn't seem to measure up there as much of an issue. HOV lanes are really meant for commuters.  Families can certainly use them if they qualify, but it's not like most families on vacation are really taking cars off the road by using the HOV lanes as kids wouldn't be driving separately anyway.

Beltway

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 13, 2019, 12:35:40 PM
So either they pay or they use the free lanes. Again, nothing unusual, and of the complaints about the tolling, this one doesn't seem to measure up there as much of an issue. HOV lanes are really meant for commuters.  Families can certainly use them if they qualify, but it's not like most families on vacation are really taking cars off the road by using the HOV lanes as kids wouldn't be driving separately anyway.

If you are from outside of the area and only pass thru there once or a few times per year, and don't understand the managed lanes in that local area, then like you say you can use the general purpose lanes, no big deal.   
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

I think the signage for I-66 inside the Beltway is the clearest signage of any of Northern Virginia's HO/T lanes. I think the part-time nature of the operation there is probably part of the reason why, too. The aspect that's hard to explain concisely on any sign is the free ride for HOVs if you have an E-ZPass Flex. I don't think the way the signs are worded really conveys that part very clearly, but I don't know how I'd reword it. Maybe "HOV-[number] free if you use [E-ZPass Flex logo]."

I do think VDOT press releases when I-66 tolling began were poorly worded. They kept saying express lanes were "opening."  That implied new lanes. Instead, they should have said HO/T "operations begin on [date]."
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

1995hoo

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 02, 2019, 05:58:57 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on October 02, 2019, 10:33:30 AM
Quote
What about SB, can they benefit from this also?  Use the express lanes in D.C. with less than 3 persons, get off at the Pentagon, pick up slugs and get back on?  Slug-Lines.com needs to research that.

Per this page (scroll way down and select driving near pentagon) there is no toll barrier on the SB ramp to Eads.  Unless they place a toll reader on the express lane itself before that ramp the trip would be free anyway?

Pdf pg 15 has a diagram that suggests there is no SB toll gantry before Eads.

I haven't driven into the District in a while, but I plan to do so on Columbus Day due to the combination of not having the day off, light traffic and no HOV restrictions because the feds will have off, and a Caps game that night. I'll try to keep my eyes open to see what gantries are in that area.

Following up on this. I drove in this morning (nice fast trip–HOV lanes empty, mainline at a standstill due to a crash north of Glebe). There is an inbound gantry just before the 14th Street Bridge, roughly around where that old pedestrian tunnel passes under the highway. I did not see an outbound gantry in the same area. I noted a new small white sign right at the bridge's start that says "Express Restriction Ends."

If the HOV is open tonight after the Caps game, I'll go home that way and keep my eyes peeled for new things on the outbound road near the Pentagon.

The road is mostly in good shape and the third lane is largely complete and blocked off with barrels. Still a decent bit of work going on near the Pentagon, and some restriping is badly needed there because the lines on the overpasses don't match up with the lines on the pavement to either side of the overpasses. Still, it looks likely they'll have it all done by Thanksgiving.

I noted VMS messages about I-395 express lanes "opening"  in November and requiring E-ZPass or E-ZPass Flex. As with I-66, I wish they'd word that differently. The lanes are already "open"  except for the newly-built third lane. They're converting them to HO/T lanes rather than "opening"  new express lanes.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

AlexandriaVA

You really think anyone up this way is going to be confused about the "opening" vs "converting" distinction

1995hoo

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 14, 2019, 10:38:46 AM
You really think anyone up this way is going to be confused about the "opening" vs "converting" distinction

Yeah, I do, based on a lot of the overall stupidity I've seen elsewhere. Back in 2012 when the signs for the Beltway HO/T lanes went up on I-66 approaching the Beltway, one lady complained to Dr. Gridlock that she shouldn't need an E-ZPass to drive on I-66. She apparently didn't know about the Beltway HO/T project (I found that hard to believe).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 14, 2019, 10:57:28 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 14, 2019, 10:38:46 AM
You really think anyone up this way is going to be confused about the "opening" vs "converting" distinction

Yeah, I do, based on a lot of the overall stupidity I've seen elsewhere. Back in 2012 when the signs for the Beltway HO/T lanes went up on I-66 approaching the Beltway, one lady complained to Dr. Gridlock that she shouldn't need an E-ZPass to drive on I-66. She apparently didn't know about the Beltway HO/T project (I found that hard to believe).

For some people, there's not enough signage in the world that'll help them out.

Remember, were dealing with people that can operate their smart phone's hundreds of features all by themselves, but yet will demand 3 days of training for a simple computer program at work.

sprjus4

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 14, 2019, 10:38:46 AM
You really think anyone up this way is going to be confused about the "opening" vs "converting" distinction
Not being local or that familiar area to the area, I initially perceived I-66's lanes as being a separated facility, not an all HO/T highway.

1995hoo

Following on my comment from this morning, the HOV lanes were closed tonight at 8:00 when we were on our way home, so I wasn't able to look for any outbound toll gantries prior to Eads Street.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.



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