https://ricochet.com/1382893/how-breezewood-got-that-way/
Found this at a conservative website. Yeah, it may sound like a bunch of oldsters reminiscing about the time they stopped in the town, but the original poster there kind-of sort-of got the gist of why Breezewood ended up the way it did. YMMV of course.
Interestingly, none of the commenters, so far, has mentioned that the PA Turnpike gave its patrons a crash-course in All-Electronic Tolling.
The most disagreeable part of that page to me is (emphasis mine)
QuoteIt has become a meme, particularly among Internet critics of capitalism: a half mile of commercial excess in the mountains of Pennsylvania, far from any population centers or tourist attractions.
The criticism is more that it's rather poor urban planning and that many places in the USA look somewhat like this. Breezewood has a reason to, being entirely car-oriented, but almost every US city has no inherent need to have a place like this.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 07, 2023, 01:03:57 AM
Quote from: brad2971 on February 06, 2023, 09:04:54 PM
Found this at a conservative website.
Aaaaand I lost all interest in reading it.
Not missing much, Adam did a way better article anyways:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2018/02/will-we-ever-see-breezewood-bypass.html?m=1
As for Breezewood itself, the best argument its existence makes is for not allowing different agencies or entities to control major transportation systems, or in the alternative, for the superior state governing authority (the legislature or the governor) to make them play nice with each other. Look at Kansas. There's no issue with I-70 traffic needing to use a busy surface road to stay on the route where I-70 diverges from the Kansas Turnpike. KTA and the Kansas DOT obviously don't have the same issues that PTC and PennDOT do.
[Removed response to removed post. -S.]
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2023, 09:48:32 PM
The most disagreeable part of that page to me is (emphasis mine)
QuoteIt has become a meme, particularly among Internet critics of capitalism: a half mile of commercial excess in the mountains of Pennsylvania, far from any population centers or tourist attractions.
The criticism is more that it's rather poor urban planning and that many places in the USA look somewhat like this. Breezewood has a reason to, being entirely car-oriented, but almost every US city has no inherent need to have a place like this.
If you ignore the Breezewood part of the article, many highway exits outside of urban and suburban areas are like this: Lots of places to eat, get gas and spend the night, but otherwise there's little other commerce and no one really lives nearby. In some cases, the area has grown to be a thriving population center *because* the exit was first just a few restaurants and motels.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2023, 12:50:20 PMIf you ignore the Breezewood part of the article, many highway exits outside of urban and suburban areas are like this: Lots of places to eat, get gas and spend the night, but otherwise there's little other commerce and no one really lives nearby. In some cases, the area has grown to be a thriving population center *because* the exit was first just a few restaurants and motels.
But the difference is that Breezewood has an essentially captive audience that's all but forced to traverse past its truck stops and gas stations and restaurants (I don't really consider, say, taking US-220 to I-68 to get to Baltimore, DC, and points south to be a reasonable alternative when the travel times are much longer).
I don't really understand why it's so hated, by the left or the right. The reason you don't see something like it in other countries is the fact that the cross-country road trip and its popularity is almost uniquely American.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
As for Breezewood itself, the best argument its existence makes is for not allowing different agencies or entities to control major transportation systems, or in the alternative, for the superior state governing authority (the legislature or the governor) to make them play nice with each other.
Above all that it's an argument against planning systems that give local interests precedence over state and national interests. It has nothing to do with PennDOT and PTC not playing nice at this point and everything to do with PennDOT never builds anything unless the county they're building it in wants it. Bedford County doesn't want a direct connection and the state is not willing to force one upon them.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 07, 2023, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2023, 12:50:20 PMIf you ignore the Breezewood part of the article, many highway exits outside of urban and suburban areas are like this: Lots of places to eat, get gas and spend the night, but otherwise there's little other commerce and no one really lives nearby. In some cases, the area has grown to be a thriving population center *because* the exit was first just a few restaurants and motels.
But the difference is that Breezewood has an essentially captive audience that's all but forced to traverse past its truck stops and gas stations and restaurants (I don't really consider, say, taking US-220 to I-68 to get to Baltimore, DC, and points south to be a reasonable alternative when the travel times are much longer).
I don't really understand why it's so hated, by the left or the right. The reason you don't see something like it in other countries is the fact that the cross-country road trip and its popularity is almost uniquely American.
I suggest it's "hated" because it's an oddity in the system as an unplanned result of former federal policies. Ceteris paribus, to remain on an interstate highway, one should not have to drive through a congested commercial district with traffic lights. It's not a left-or-right issue there. I have seen memes that allegedly complained that this is ugly, but I don't share that opinion.
Thanks everyone for all of your comments! The point I was trying to make is that sometimes certain things thought to be exclusive to "roadgeeks" are noticed in parts of the internet that one wouldn't think would delve into the subject. BTW, the last commenter on that Ricochet post did link to GribbleNation's Breezewood post, so there may even be some traffic clicks as a result.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
If you ignore the Breezewood part of the article, many highway exits outside of urban and suburban areas are like this: Lots of places to eat, get gas and spend the night, but otherwise there's little other commerce and no one really lives nearby. In some cases, the area has grown to be a thriving population center *because* the exit was first just a few restaurants and motels.
Those areas don't really need to exist as such in major cities, though. They do because of policy choices we have made (such as to prioritize cars over trains as our form of intermediate distance travel). Additionally, many (likely most) of those areas mostly service locals, not simply people traveling through. Those environments tend to be rather unpleasant, sprawly, and generally not ideal, yet they exist almost everywhere. There are better options.
Quote from: Ellie on February 07, 2023, 10:53:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2023, 12:50:20 PM
If you ignore the Breezewood part of the article, many highway exits outside of urban and suburban areas are like this: Lots of places to eat, get gas and spend the night, but otherwise there's little other commerce and no one really lives nearby. In some cases, the area has grown to be a thriving population center *because* the exit was first just a few restaurants and motels.
Those areas don't really need to exist as such in major cities, though. They do because of policy choices we have made (such as to prioritize cars over trains as our form of intermediate distance travel). Additionally, many (likely most) of those areas mostly service locals, not simply people traveling through. Those environments tend to be rather unpleasant, sprawly, and generally not ideal, yet they exist almost everywhere. There are better options.
One thing I must say, in some areas of this country they are bringing back rail service slowly. The Lackawanna Cut Off in NJ is being partially rebuilt for use and Amtrak may look into starting a NYC to Scranton train thus reopening the complete Cut Off.
Florida is currently to build regional rail connecting Miami with Orlando. Look along SR 528 east of Orlando to see.
We need rail service back and metro area light rails are needed pronto. We need to get off using our cars except for vacations where we want to travel and see the US.
First of all the article just explains why Pennsylvania chose not to do a direct connection to the Turnpike. It states it doubled I-70 on the toll road to help bridge the Appalachian Mountains and it mentions how the feds didn’t want interstates ending at toll roads to sucker people into using their tolled facilities. PennDOT chose this what became a local town cashing in on traveling motorists to let people choose between free Lincoln Highway or tolled Pennsylvania Turnpike, or so they use this rationale anyway.
Off-topic posts removed and thread reopened. Let's keep it limited to Breezewood now, shall we?
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
I don't know of any rest areas that force you to drive through them, other than possibly for an emergency on the adjacent roadway.
How bad does the traffic congestion get at Breezwood? I'm guesing that I-68 helped with congestion.
I've seen it pretty backed up over the years and then "free flowing" during other times.
Not sure if it follows any pattern, especially as the strip has diminished in recent decades.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 09, 2023, 10:50:01 AM
How bad does the traffic congestion get at Breezwood? I'm guesing that I-68 helped with congestion.
From what I understand, it's pretty bad during peak travel dates (the Sunday after Thanksgiving, for example), but I have no memory of sitting in a traffic jam.
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Quote from: Duke87 on February 07, 2023, 02:17:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
As for Breezewood itself, the best argument its existence makes is for not allowing different agencies or entities to control major transportation systems, or in the alternative, for the superior state governing authority (the legislature or the governor) to make them play nice with each other.
Above all that it's an argument against planning systems that give local interests precedence over state and national interests. It has nothing to do with PennDOT and PTC not playing nice at this point and everything to do with PennDOT never builds anything unless the county they're building it in wants it. Bedford County doesn't want a direct connection and the state is not willing to force one upon them.
I'm not sure I agree with that though. Planning shouldn't be national, local interests should be prioritized over national interests.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?
Quote from: ran4sh on February 09, 2023, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 07, 2023, 02:17:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 07, 2023, 12:42:11 PM
As for Breezewood itself, the best argument its existence makes is for not allowing different agencies or entities to control major transportation systems, or in the alternative, for the superior state governing authority (the legislature or the governor) to make them play nice with each other.
Above all that it's an argument against planning systems that give local interests precedence over state and national interests. It has nothing to do with PennDOT and PTC not playing nice at this point and everything to do with PennDOT never builds anything unless the county they're building it in wants it. Bedford County doesn't want a direct connection and the state is not willing to force one upon them.
I'm not sure I agree with that though. Planning shouldn't be national, local interests should be prioritized over national interests.
Probably balanced, and - sorry for using a dirty word - compromise should be searched for. After all, it used to be "United we stand"...
With that, I have very little sympathy to "local interests" of Breezewood. That is the situation that shouldn't exist to begin with, and those interests are parasitism on other's issues.
On the same page, I have no sympathy to those who heavily borrowed against the value of NYC taxi medallions, for example. That was a gamble in a Ponzi scheme, and sorry you got in too late.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?
As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
That's exactly why I used that C-word
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 12:04:46 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
That's exactly why I used that C-word
Yeah, and then you went on to state "With that, I have very little sympathy to "local interests" of Breezewood. That is the situation that shouldn't exist to begin with, and those interests are parasitism on other's issues," which is the exact opposite of that C-word.
Quote from: algorerhythms on February 09, 2023, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?
As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.
When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.
One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
I figure it's a smaller version of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3787004,-74.0204885,3a,25.1y,52.95h,90.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srmwDgeKFQSBDH85Lopjd3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), without the parallel corridor. Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 12:12:43 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 12:04:46 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
That's exactly why I used that C-word
Yeah, and then you went on to state "With that, I have very little sympathy to "local interests" of Breezewood. That is the situation that shouldn't exist to begin with, and those interests are parasitism on other's issues," which is the exact opposite of that C-word.
There are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved. Local legitimate interests would be highway access - or lack thereof; effects of traffic, convenience of locals etc. Forcing traffic to go through the shopping district which is only there due to bad road design is not a legitimate local interest in my book. Actually when did aristocratic land owners were banned from collecting transit fees? Those "local interests" were on the same page...
Compromise could be had along the lines of converting that stretch into mega-service area while allowing easy highway access, or something like that...
Quote from: zzcarp on February 09, 2023, 12:41:56 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on February 09, 2023, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?
As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.
When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.
One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.
Lots of people use the term "Breezewood" to describe the need to use surface routes to connect between two freeways, but it's not really a valid comparison, in my view. Similar situations exist in Pennsylvania with the Turnpike and US 219, the Turnpike and I-81, and the NE Extension and I-80, but the difference is those situations involve changing routes, not having to navigate a surface road to stay on the route you're on.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
You didn't read Scott's warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 09, 2023, 02:12:48 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
You didn't read Scott's warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.
Well, that is purely a transportation issue, not a red vs blue. Where the balance of local interest vs wider interest is? How to deal with old decisions that have significant legacy attached? Wh should make the call?
Those are very real and legitimate question about transportation policy and politics. I am not a mod, but I would say that such things do belong here - but it's better to avoid discussion going beyond those particular transportation issues.
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 02:04:58 PMThere are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved.
Other than the people who own the businesses along that strip, sure. And the people who live in Breezewood and use those businesses.
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 09, 2023, 02:12:48 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 11:42:11 AMAfter all, it used to be "United we stand"...
You should really look to learn about American history from places other than bumper stickers. The Founding Fathers also had a lot to say about tyranny of the majority, majority rule and minority voice, etc.
You didn't read Scott's warning. Stick to Breezewood or face a padlock again.
Well, that is purely a transportation issue, not a red vs blue. Where the balance of local interest vs wider interest is? How to deal with old decisions that have significant legacy attached? Wh should make the call?
Those are very real and legitimate question about transportation policy and politics. I am not a mod, but I would say that such things do belong here - but it's better to avoid discussion going beyond those particular transportation issues.
Yeah, agreed - the way I understood Scott's warning, it had to do with dilatory comments about the publisher of the article. If not, though, happy to stop discussing it.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on February 09, 2023, 12:41:56 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on February 09, 2023, 11:56:18 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
Was that section of I-70 a toll road at one point?
As I understand it, it is because the direct path for traffic coming from I-70 is a free route (US-119). In the case of Breezewood, the way this would be done would be to have a ramp off of I-70 to the turnpike, then the mainline would go to US-30, but for some reason that ramp was never built.
When I-70 EB was constructed south of Breezewood, the turnpike mainline still used the now-abandoned tunnels and the US 30 interchange was routed north of the turnpike in the opposite direction. I suggest there was an opportunity to build a continuation of the turnpike exit ramp roadways north of US-30 (similar to I-376 and US 22 east of Pittsburgh) and loop back west to the current I-70 EB mainline prior to most all of the Breezewood development. With the private property there now, I think that ship has sailed. In my view that possibility would have been a good compromise to keep both the Breezewood access AND visibility for the businesses at the interchange. I think the business visibility issue is a big reason a direct connection with the new or old Turnpike to I-70 has been a nonstarter.
One other item of note: Bedford County technically has two "Breezewood" situations. There is no direct access from the turnpike to I-99 in Bedford proper either, but a connection via Business US 220 along a commercial strip with traffic lights. Perhaps it's more of a Bedford County problem since other areas of the state seem to have tried to eliminate or minimize their "Breezewoods" at interchanges.
Lots of people use the term "Breezewood" to describe the need to use surface routes to connect between two freeways, but it's not really a valid comparison, in my view. Similar situations exist in Pennsylvania with the Turnpike and US 219, the Turnpike and I-81, and the NE Extension and I-80, but the difference is those situations involve changing routes, not having to navigate a surface road to stay on the route you're on.
I see the distinction you're pointing to. Oddly enough, I've traveled through each of those, as you say, "situations". The I-476 & NE Extension/I-80 interchange surprised me with the traffic light since my then new 1998 Rand McNally atlas didn't show it as such (unlike using US 11 to traverse between I-76 and I-81 for example).
What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section. Were I-99 extended to I-68 near Cumberland, then it would match the other "situations".
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 09, 2023, 02:29:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2023, 02:04:58 PMThere are no legitimate local interests of Breezewood involved.
Other than the people who own the businesses along that strip, sure. And the people who live in Breezewood and use those businesses.
Well, business owners made a bet on using certain situation. It doesn't entitle them for keeping that situation.
Imagine a business investing heavily in manufacturing some covid-related supplies supplies. Once some smoke is settled, they better find other use cases. Or should they ask for another virus to be created and released to keep production busy? Mine towns near depleted mines is the other situation. There should be a clear understanding that situation can change, and so is income of saloon in mine town...
No question that rerouting the exit would hurt those enterprises - but that should be a pre-calculated risk of running a business like that.
Oh, and Breezwood PA, population of 180... They definitely need a variety of fast food restaurants!
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave. Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119. Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now. You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike.
Quote from: BrianP on February 09, 2023, 03:09:20 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave. Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119. Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now. You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike.
I looked at that original US 119 interchange on Historic Aerials-boy was it wild! Each side had a two-way exit road that met at-grade on the east side and then had another at-grade intersection at US 119. I can't link a screenshot from my work computer, but I'll try to post an image of it later tonight.
Quote from: BrianP on February 09, 2023, 03:09:20 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2023, 11:08:52 AM
Glad to see this thread reopened, because I was going to post a new thread based on a thought this thread inspired.
Why is New Stanton not like Breezewood? Why is there a direct connection between free I-70 and toll I-76 on the western end of the concurrency, if there's not one on the eastern end?
The original PATPK interchange at New Stanton was for US 119 which used to go through New Stanton via Pennsylvania Ave. Then I-70 was built and for a time there was an at-grade intersection where the turnpike interchange met I-70/US 119. Then the PATPK built a new interchange which is what you see now. You can see a remnant of the original interchange on the west side of the turnpike.
I wonder if the fact that the substandard Washington-New Stanton stretch was grandfathered into I-70 plays a role in there being a direct interchange here? Two of the other interstates that have always had direct interchanges (I-83 & I-76/Schuylkill) are also grandfathered in on older substandard freeways.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 09, 2023, 03:29:51 PM
I wonder if the fact that the substandard Washington-New Stanton stretch was grandfathered into I-70 plays a role in there being a direct interchange here? Two of the other interstates that have always had direct interchanges (I-83 & I-76/Schuylkill) are also grandfathered in on older substandard freeways.
That's been my belief about the situation.
I do wonder if PennDOT (or whatever it was called at the time) planned ahead a little for something in the Breezewood area though....
Mostly just where the "Free" I-70 carriageways bow out (and back) to widen the median in the vicinity of the Turnpike - even though the rest of free I-70 to MD has a pretty consistent median width, excepting the ascent & descent of Town Hill where the carriageways are at different elevations.
Not saying they ever had an actual plan, just decided that would be a good place for more ROW. Just speculating though, but I can't think of any other reasons for that wider median at that spot.
Quote from: vdeane on February 09, 2023, 12:43:25 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
I figure it's a smaller version of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3787004,-74.0204885,3a,25.1y,52.95h,90.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srmwDgeKFQSBDH85Lopjd3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), without the parallel corridor. Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.
As much as A-20 in Vaudreuil is bad, it's far from the only violation of freeway building standards in Québec. The worst of them all, IMO, is A-955, which isn't even a freeway at all (https://goo.gl/maps/ns1mR8dvJkWt7wRA8)!
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 09, 2023, 12:43:25 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
I figure it's a smaller version of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3787004,-74.0204885,3a,25.1y,52.95h,90.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srmwDgeKFQSBDH85Lopjd3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), without the parallel corridor. Then again, many of the freeway junctions around Montréal remind me of the PA Turnpike connections with interstates (usually but not always minus the double trumpet), so maybe that's not surprising.
As much as A-20 in Vaudreuil is bad, it's far from the only violation of freeway building standards in Québec. The worst of them all, IMO, is A-955, which isn't even a freeway at all (https://goo.gl/maps/ns1mR8dvJkWt7wRA8)!
I would say that the problem is not standard violation. Problem is that violation is totally unnecessary and only occurred due to ancient and now abandoned policies,.
It's easy to see how highway routed through the city can become substandard. If there is no room for a ramp, or building a new bridge is prohibitively expensive - well, FHWA may not like that, but that's life. Breezewood is nothing like that. It can, and should, be reconfigured.
Quote from: zzcarp on February 09, 2023, 02:38:25 PM
What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section.
Except they're not. US 220 continues south for a couple miles as a freeway, and then south to I-68 as a high-speed 2-lane corridor. Traffic counts on I-99/US 220 are roughly identical (11,000 AADT) north and south of the Exit #1 interchange the serves the Turnpike. The major movement here is straight through on I-99/US 220, not I-99 to/from the Turnpike.
Breezewood would not be allowed to happen today. It would be built as an exit with services available. That's what it should be now.
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 10, 2023, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: zzcarp on February 09, 2023, 02:38:25 PM
What makes I-99 a "Breezewood", IMHO, is that usually a 2DI ends at another interstate route. My argument is the Bedford exit from the turnpike and the subsequent ramps from Business US 220 to the US 220/I-99 freeway are in intent a continuous route connected by an arterial section.
Except they're not. US 220 continues south for a couple miles as a freeway, and then south to I-68 as a high-speed 2-lane corridor. Traffic counts on I-99/US 220 are roughly identical (11,000 AADT) north and south of the Exit #1 interchange the serves the Turnpike. The major movement here is straight through on I-99/US 220, not I-99 to/from the Turnpike.
On top of that, anyone looking to ultimately connect to I-70 east into Maryland from I-99 can use US 30 between Bedford & Breezewood - in addition to being toll-free, I think it's actually slightly faster because of the indirect connections to the Turnpike at both ends.
IMHO, Carlisle is much closer to "Breezewood" status than Bedford - even though there isn't an interstate running along US 11 between the Turnpike & I-81, it still marks a major transition point for long-distance traffic from the west that is heading towards New York (picking up I-78 beyond Harrisburg) in much the same way that Breezewood marks the transition for traffic heading towards DC & Baltimore.
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
I would have to agree that the non-connection between the PA Turnpike and I-81 is way under-discussed relative to Breezewood, when it's more egregious in pretty much all aspects except for the surface street having an interstate designation.
Me being the waterpark fan that I am, when I saw this thread, I imagined someone opening a waterpark in Breezewood, called "Breezy Bay" or something like that. I'm sure it would get a lot of business every summer, from all the travelers coming through.
Also, that might help turn Breezewood into a regional destination in its own right (at least in the summer), thus helping keep the already-existing businesses afloat even after a bypass ramp is built.
Just a thought that I happened to have.
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Quote from: KCRoadFan on February 10, 2023, 01:11:58 PM
Me being the waterpark fan that I am, when I saw this thread, I imagined someone opening a waterpark in Breezewood, called "Breezy Bay" or something like that. I'm sure it would get a lot of business every summer, from all the travelers coming through.
I don't think so. If I'm on a long distance trip that passes through Breezewood I'm probably not going to run across a waterpark and suddenly decided I want to spend a few hours enjoying it. Chances are I have hotel reservations or at the very least a schedule I'm trying to keep. Breezewood's bread and butter is gas stations, fast food, and hotels because all three of those are things that a traveler will need eventually, so why not just stop in Breezewood while you're slowed down anyway?
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection. They're on the eastern side of I-81.
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 07:38:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection. They're on the eastern side of I-81.
Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 07:38:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection. They're on the eastern side of I-81.
Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about
It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route. But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.
My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.
New Stanton is a lot more complicated than it seems. Initially it was a simple modified trumpet connecting to a two-lane US 119:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwjffUti.png&hash=73d1e7dd761839ba77ece8272b8bbe898193f9c2)
(1949)
I-70 was built in about 1957 as PA 71 Alternate, cutting off the old road to the west (Pennsylvania Avenue); US 119 was realigned to use the new freeway to the current Bair Boulevard interchange. The original Turnpike interchange remained (https://www.historicaerials.com/location/40.2206/-79.6023/1962/16) until about 1964, when the current double trumpet was built.
To the east, several businesses south of the road seem to have held on until the ca. 1977 construction of the new US 119 freeway, and an at-grade remained at Arona Road until the construction of PA 66 in about 1991.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 10, 2023, 09:11:08 AM
Breezewood would not be allowed to happen today. It would be built as an exit with services available. That's what it should be now.
It would be built as an exit, but the services are up to private industry. If they feel they'll profit, they'll build.
As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down. It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 07:38:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection. They're on the eastern side of I-81.
Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about
It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route. But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.
My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.
Crossroads is a place for doing business - it was that way, it is still the way.
Closer to home, Albany grew up as Canal city with roads towards MA (iron ore) and lakes towards Montreal. Some people in Utica still believe that city would be much better off if I-81 was routed through Utica instead of Syracuse.
The other overtone of your comment I may have missed is that Apple warehouse would make I-81 - Turnpike interchange redesign more challenging. Well, yes, that's true.
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2023, 08:06:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 07:38:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 01:35:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2023, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
That's a good point about Carlisle. Given the massive truck traffic and facilities through there, I'd bet more economic activity is generated on the indirect movements between I-81 and PATPK than in Breezewood.
Would that be significantly different overall if there was a Pilot off the exit?
Such indirect movement doesn't create extra services demand - not for trucks at least; so keeping connection straight would result in somewhat more dispersed total demand. Not sure if that is good, bad, or neutral overall.
Of course, some cars may choose to stop once forced of the highway, but trucks should have a more planned approach.
Keep in mind it isn't all about the truck stops, but the distribution centers as well.
I doubt those big warehouses benefit from traffic taking delay switching between highways...
Given the location of the centers, not sure any time would be saved if I-81 and I-76 had a direct connection. They're on the eastern side of I-81.
Basically what you say is warehouses are near two interstates to maximize delivery options, and probably don't care too much about the way those interstates are connected. Of course, that affects last-mile routing, but that's it. They are certainly a contributing factor to the local economy.
I don't see any relevance of any of that to "breezewood" configuration, though. Or I am missing something?
Interchange configuration would definitely affect how services are distributed, but that's what this thread is about
It's not the same as Breezewood since you don't have a stop light on an Interstate route. But, to get between I-81 and I-76, you have to go past the truck stops on the west side of I-81.
My original remark was that the strip and surroundings of the connector certainly seems more on the up and up than Breezewood nowadays.
Crossroads is a place for doing business - it was that way, it is still the way.
Closer to home, Albany grew up as Canal city with roads towards MA (iron ore) and lakes towards Montreal. Some people in Utica still believe that city would be much better off if I-81 was routed through Utica instead of Syracuse.
The other overtone of your comment I may have missed is that Apple warehouse would make I-81 - Turnpike interchange redesign more challenging. Well, yes, that's true.
Breezewood is a type of crossroads as well, though.
Poor Utica. Making I-81 somehow go through there seems way out of the way given the overall intended route.
I really didn't care about any difficulties of making the direct connection -- even if you plopped an interchange right at the crossroads, I'd imagine the connections with US 11 would need to be reconsidered due to how close the merges would be. Just thought the comparison between Carlisle and Breezewood was interesting given the differing characteristics.
Quote from: Rothman on February 11, 2023, 09:53:12 AM
Breezewood is a type of crossroads as well, though.
Poor Utica. Making I-81 somehow go through there seems way out of the way given the overall intended route.
I really didn't care about any difficulties of making the direct connection -- even if you plopped an interchange right at the crossroads, I'd imagine the connections with US 11 would need to be reconsidered due to how close the merges would be. Just thought the comparison between Carlisle and Breezewood was interesting given the differing characteristics.
Looks like Utica was an option. Just a first mention of it I could find:
https://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2018/01/flashback_controversy_over_what_to_name_new_superhighway_in_1958.html
QuoteAfter a "big battle raged" over whether the new highway would go through Syracuse or swing east to near Utica
As for crossroads commerce... I can see 2 factors working against Breezewood:
1. Mountains. Looks like terrain isn't great in the area
2. Easier alternatives. I-81 corridor is in the valley, and more suitable for serving the east coast - including workforce availability in the valley vs mountains. This actually explains why my CHewy orders are dispatched from PA! And yes, it is a really interesting problem to look at.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2023, 11:32:13 PM
As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down. It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69
The irony is that Breezewood is actually somewhat nondescript by PA standards. Heavy truck traffic on a heavily commercialized roadway is all too common across the state. There's US 11 in Carlisle, US 11/15 in Shamokin Dam, US 15 in Lewisburg prior to the northern CSVT opening, US 30 east of Lancaster, parts of US 219 and US 322, etc. etc.
Quote from: webny99 on February 11, 2023, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2023, 11:32:13 PM
As we're seeing now, a lot of the commerce that was there over the years has been shutting down. It's a reason why, when there is a new article about Breezewood, they continue to show older pictures, not today's imagery... https://goo.gl/maps/uEcMvW7a6ebfwvL69
The irony is that Breezewood is actually somewhat nondescript by PA standards. Heavy truck traffic on a heavily commercialized roadway is all too common across the state. There's US 11 in Carlisle, US 11/15 in Shamokin Dam, US 15 in Lewisburg prior to the northern CSVT opening, US 30 east of Lancaster, parts of US 219 and US 322, etc. etc.
And for someone like me, if I'm in that area I'm on the PA Turnpike so exiting to stop at a business there would be like any other exit along an interstate. The I-70 issue wouldn't come into play for me, other than increased traffic which is fairly common off other exits as well.
Another view of Breezewood:
https://beltmag.com/breezewood-pennsylvania-most-american-place-earth/
Breezewood is an indictment of many things, but capitalism simply isn't one of them.
Above all it is an example of why multiple layers of responsibility for transportation don't work. Its also an example of why a weak central government can be a problem. Rather than just force the issue to be fixed properly this has been left for decades.
But it is also an example of the central issue with toll roads that exits and access are fewer than desirable because of the costs of booths, etc. It might be the most egregious example of this, but anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
2 does not equal many.
Although I'll add a 3rd: 295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange. If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.
We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
2 does not equal many.
Although I'll add a 3rd: 295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange. If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.
We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.
Thruway to I-84 used to be disconnected , but is fixed by now
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
2 does not equal many.
Although I'll add a 3rd: 295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange. If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.
We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.
There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 04:36:48 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
2 does not equal many.
Although I'll add a 3rd: 295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange. If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.
We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.
There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.
It didn't say this was unique to PA. He said it was mostly PA. And that's correct. Some states have a few examples, but PA has far more than any other one state.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 04:39:19 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 04:36:48 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 13, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 13, 2023, 02:07:21 PM
anyone who has spent time with toll roads knows they often are not well integrated with the rest of the network.
This is mostly a Pennsylvania Turnpike thing. The Mass Pike, for example, has infrequent exits, but the only major connections missing are US 7 and I-391. Interchanges with the rest (I-91, I-84, I-290, MA 146, I-495, I-95, I-93, the airport) all exist. In addition, many of the exits for freeways also allow you to get off at the local surface road at that spot (such as MA 12 for the I-290 exit), so you have more options.
I can think of many examples beyond PA. Colorado has a bad I-70/E-470 interface. The New Jersey Turnpike does not even bother to interface with the North-South freeway.
And, even where interfaces do occur, the trumpet interchanges required for toll booths are clumsy compared to a modern flyover intersection. Breezewood of course has that issue as well.
2 does not equal many.
Although I'll add a 3rd: 295 going over the NJ Turnpike PA Extension. Unlike the NJ Turnpike/42 missing connection, no one is terribly bothered by this missing interchange other than a few who demand that all intersecting interstates must have an interchange. If you're using 295 at this point, you're already intentionally avoiding paying the toll until you get further north on 295.
We can also add some interstate bypasses where making a directional u-turn from one to the other doesn't readily exist.
There are far more than those 2, I was illustrating that it is not unique to PA. If I had a ready made list I would paste it.
It didn't say this was unique to PA. He said it was mostly PA. And that's correct. Some states have a few examples, but PA has far more than any other one state.
I have found the issue is true of most toll roads though, not just those in any particular state, Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey, New York, etc. all have this issue.
Its not just that they lack interchanges with other major highways, that is a particular issue of the Breezewood type, but more generally that the number of exits provisioned on a toll road is sub optimal. Surface streets that would have an interchange on a freeway often don't get one with a toll road and the result is a loss of local utility. Frontage roads can sometimes help with this to a degree.
Perhaps the failure to interface with other highways is more common in PA, but the exit provisioning issue generally is not.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on February 13, 2023, 05:49:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."
See, I view it in another light. So many Roadgeeks are focused on the surface gap of I-70 in Breezewood that they miss/overlook the abandoned PA Turnpike. Being obsessed with orderly Interstate freeway standards and not a historic highway segment (which can be hiked) is pretty on brand with much of the general Roadgeeking world I've found.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on February 13, 2023, 05:49:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."
Because we all come from different areas and regions. Someone in a more rural region would get severely irritated if they had to slow for congestion on the highway or had to wait more than one light cycle to get thru a light. Others just hope the delay is less than 15 minutes.
For me, as I mentioned upthread somewhere, I'm always on I-76 in the Breezewood area. I roll right thru it barely realizing where I am. For others, if they're on I-70, I can see their frustration.
It's been well noted that Breezewood really irks some people, even when it's not the only example. People rarely talk about the lights on I-676 in Philly (and then debate if that's even I-676). Or I-78 approaching the Holland Tunnel.
So, yeah, it's not perfection, but it's fairly unique. It's not the way it should've happened, but absent the federal government demanding the state does something (which would mean the federal government would also have to approve the plans and provide the money), eh, it's good enough.
^^^
I'd argue the surface gap in I-676 is more interesting. The view of downtown Philadelphia alone makes it memorable.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2023, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on February 13, 2023, 05:49:39 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on February 09, 2023, 02:54:02 AM
Anyways... as much as we hate Breezewood for being a violation of the Interstate standards... is it really THAT bad? It's a glorified rest area, basically.
Comments like this amaze me and show that even in the roadgeek community, we have those that want to say "eh, it's good enough."
Because we all come from different areas and regions. Someone in a more rural region would get severely irritated if they had to slow for congestion on the highway or had to wait more than one light cycle to get thru a light. Others just hope the delay is less than 15 minutes.
For me, as I mentioned upthread somewhere, I'm always on I-76 in the Breezewood area. I roll right thru it barely realizing where I am. For others, if they're on I-70, I can see their frustration.
It's been well noted that Breezewood really irks some people, even when it's not the only example. People rarely talk about the lights on I-676 in Philly (and then debate if that's even I-676). Or I-78 approaching the Holland Tunnel.
So, yeah, it's not perfection, but it's fairly unique. It's not the way it should've happened, but absent the federal government demanding the state does something (which would mean the federal government would also have to approve the plans and provide the money), eh, it's good enough.
To me, a gap on a 3di is more like a funny little footnote. Even I-78 and its issues. It's at the very end and most people just think the interstate ended when the freeway ended and don't think of the Holland Tunnel as part of the interstate.
But Breezewood is in the middle of an I-X0 major cross-country interstate. It has way more gravitas than just a few lights on a 3di that you can say is actually two separate interstates with the same number since they are in different states. You are driving an interstate across the country and you are forced to go through small town USA's commercial district? This is the exact thing the interstates were designed to avoid so it's very odd and infuriating that this still exists.
Agreed that I-70's gap being in the middle of the interstate makes it a bigger deal. Also, the fact that it's a 2di (which is why I-78 is criticized more than I-676, for example).
Breezewood traffic can get bad, I have heard of two hour backups there. My main complaint is there is not a good alternate route. The backroads just to get around a closure of one of the intersections are not high quality. I remember once having to go back Tannery Rd, then I forget what, and over to E Graceville Rd, and I was far from the only vehicle. You're talking barely signed, no center line, hopefully paved roads, and it's several miles around.
Going through there and staying on 30 also has very long light cycles. I swear East 30 at I-70 coming from the South by the Sheetz is a 5 minute red. I actually like US 30 between US 220 and Breezewood, high quality 4 lane road for the most part.
What is noticeable every time I go through there, which is maybe 1-2x/year, is it seems another business has closed each time. It's going to be eerie if this continues and you still have to go through there with nothing (except Sheetz, which I cannot see ever closing).
In the long haul. I-68 from Hancock west to either US 40 west or I-79 north if you're straight through on I-70 from MD to OH or points west.
Quote from: sbeaver44 on February 18, 2023, 10:10:31 PM
Going through there and staying on 30 also has very long light cycles. I swear East 30 at I-70 coming from the South by the Sheetz is a 5 minute red.
It's probably like that to avoid backups for the left turn onto I-70.