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El Paso: Loop 375 west (officially designated as a freeway Oct 2023)

Started by MaxConcrete, April 13, 2018, 05:27:50 PM

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Chris

https://www.crrma.org/past-projects/border-west-expressway-loop-375-toll-lanes

According to the CRRMA website, toll collection has never started on the Loop 375 western segment:

The facility was opened in a toll deferral period. That means that there is currently no charge to use the roadway. The CRRMA is working with TxDOT on determining when to end the toll deferral period and to begin collecting tolls.

According to the TxDOT statewide planning map, the AADT on Loop 375 west is 38,000.


US 89

Is the toll collection infrastructure set up already? Maybe they decided the cost of building it wasn't worth it.

thisdj78

Quote from: US 89 on October 21, 2023, 08:38:40 AM
Is the toll collection infrastructure set up already? Maybe they decided the cost of building it wasn't worth it.

Yes, the toll capture structures are in place:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Sqk4ZZ7PkYGH4DBG9?g_st=ic

wxfree

According to the minute order: "The project was opened to traffic on October 3, 2019, but tolling has not commenced. By letter dated November 4, 2020, the CRRMA requested that the department consider operating the Border West Expressway as a non-tolled facility, which will allow the facility to be fully available to all motorists in the region. The letter references an updated traffic and revenue study which resulted in a report that identified project revenues which were less than projected expenses for at least 15 years from commencement of toll operations and points out that the department and the CRRMA would be forced to expend public funds on toll operations when there is no financial benefit to the region in doing so."
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

Bobby5280

It's kind of easy to understand why motorists in the El Paso area would shun-pike the would-be toll road and not bother getting a TxTag account. They have to drive at least 550 miles East to find the nearest TxTag-compatible toll road.

Chris

https://cbs4local.com/news/local/border-west-expressway-in-el-paso-transitions-from-toll-road-to-free-highway-following-state-commission-vote-border-freeway-el-paso-austin-loop-375-camino-real-mobility-authority-txdot

The Texas Transportation Commision voted to not make Loop 375 a toll road.

This ends the toll road experiment for El Paso? There used to be tolled express lanes on the eastern segment of Loop 375 where there was almost no traffic using it.

armadillo speedbump

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 23, 2023, 09:38:09 PM
It's kind of easy to understand why motorists in the El Paso area would shun-pike the would-be toll road and not bother getting a TxTag account. They have to drive at least 550 miles East to find the nearest TxTag-compatible toll road.

That makes no sense.  El Paso drivers would choose whether or not to use an El Paso tollway based on convenience, time savings, traffic avoidance, etc.  Not if they can use the transponder somewhere else.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: Chris on October 27, 2023, 02:00:11 PM
This ends the toll road experiment for El Paso? There used to be tolled express lanes on the eastern segment of Loop 375 where there was almost no traffic using it.

I agree, I think it is very unlikely there will ever be any toll roads in El Paso, or even consideration of building any.

El Paso is a low income city, and tolls are expensive. I think the pool of customers for toll roads is small, since most residents are unwilling or unable to regularly pay expensive tolls.

San Antonio is also a low income city (although not as low as El Paso), and of course it has no toll roads.

The Rio Grande Valley is another low income area which has one toll road and is contemplating more, although the IBTC is non-tolled. I don't know how toll SH 550 is performing, and I don't have time to investigate right now.

In contrast, higher-income areas Houston, DFW and Austin have an overabundance of toll roads, and the toll roads attract plenty of traffic and revenue.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

The Ghostbuster

I don't think Texas should forsake toll roads altogether, although I'm sure there are some who would support that (while likely having no idea how to otherwise fund transportation needs within the state). Are traffic demands high enough for some express toll lanes to be constructed in the El Paso area? Such as along Interstate 10 or the US 54 freeway?

thisdj78

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 29, 2023, 06:33:54 PM
I don't think Texas should forsake toll roads altogether, although I'm sure there are some who would support that (while likely having no idea how to otherwise fund transportation needs within the state). Are traffic demands high enough for some express toll lanes to be constructed in the El Paso area? Such as along Interstate 10 or the US 54 freeway?

To your last point: I think most existing tolls should be eliminated. But, I think having those same "freeways" with tolled express lanes is a fair compromise (similar to Katy Freeway and TEXpress in DFW).

Example: SH130 in Austin. That is a critical enough route that it should be free, but there's enough traffic on the segment between SH71 and SH45 to justify tolled express lanes, and there is enough space in the median to accommodate it.

abqtraveler

Given that the 375 loop will be a full freeway for its entire length, has TxDOT expressed any interest in designating it as an interstate loop? I think I-210 would be available if TxDOT chose to do so, since I don't know of an I-210 that either exists or is proposed in Texas.  If not I-210, then perhaps I-810.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

The Ghostbuster

The roadway will likely keep the Loop 375 designation. Although Texas (and North Carolina) are the interstate-designating capitals of the country, I don't think the El Paso area will get any more 3dis outside of existing Interstate 110.

ski-man

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 20, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
SH-130 needs its tolls removed to increase the appeal of bypassing I-35 in Austin and "hopefully" increasing LOS to some extent. Not to make it cheaper for people working at the Tesla Gigafactory which I'm sure are already paid handsomely.
I have not been through El Paso in a number of years. Is I-110 still unsigned?

74/171FAN

Quote from: ski-man on October 30, 2023, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 20, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
SH-130 needs its tolls removed to increase the appeal of bypassing I-35 in Austin and "hopefully" increasing LOS to some extent. Not to make it cheaper for people working at the Tesla Gigafactory which I'm sure are already paid handsomely.
I have not been through El Paso in a number of years. Is I-110 still unsigned?

It depends if you count this as signage.  Otherwise it is unsigned.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Plutonic Panda

Correct if I'm wrong but isn't I-10 through downtown El Paso's next big project? I could see toll lanes working on that. But then again if TxDOT isn't even tolling the express lanes in Austin I doubt they would in El Paso.

ski-man

Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 30, 2023, 02:38:05 PM
Quote from: ski-man on October 30, 2023, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 20, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
SH-130 needs its tolls removed to increase the appeal of bypassing I-35 in Austin and "hopefully" increasing LOS to some extent. Not to make it cheaper for people working at the Tesla Gigafactory which I'm sure are already paid handsomely.
I have not been through El Paso in a number of years. Is I-110 still unsigned?

It depends if you count this as signage.  Otherwise it is unsigned.

Cool. I used to come from Mexico that way on certain days and didn't see those signs, so those must be newer than about 10-15 years. I know on I-10 you did not see I-110, only a sign that said Juarez, Mexico.

DJStephens

Quote from: abqtraveler on October 30, 2023, 09:46:20 AM
Given that the 375 loop will be a full freeway for its entire length, has TxDOT expressed any interest in designating it as an interstate loop? I think I-210 would be available if TxDOT chose to do so, since I don't know of an I-210 that either exists or is proposed in Texas.  If not I-210, then perhaps I-810.
It doesn't meet standards.  Not everywhere, but the final product is a cobbled together spaghetti string of varying elements.   A lot of piecemealing went on. 
    The original Trans Mountain Road, which was constructed in the early seventies, has 8% grades.   There should not be Class A trucking on that road today.   Should have remained a Parkway, for passenger cars, and light trucks only. 
   The section through NE El Paso has a narrow cross section and deficient shoulders.   With a lot of vertical curvature.  Roughly a 55-60 mph design speed.  It could have been straighter, and better there - meaning having a 3 x 3 cross section with better shoulders. 
    The section through Fort Bliss, could have, and should have been far better.   The original plan circa mid sixties, was to have a consistent arc across the post.  Instead, what was built, was pulled westward, and featured two sharp curves.  Curves that are not I standard.  Am guessing this was to bring it closer to the planned, and now extant "new" William Beamount Army Medical Hospital.  Am not sure why the new WBAMH had to be, where it was constructed.  The connection to the silly "spur 601" was half baked.  An overpass carrying 375 was built, and built skewed off the original alignment.  Plenty of space existed, and still exists, to build a correct "T" directional interchange, with flyovers and correct geometry.  Instead, a screwball DDI was built under the skewed overpass.  Spur 601 also could have been executed better.  With a median (in the eastern section) and proper geometrics.   Several fatal wrecks have occurred, on the 375 alignment, directly S of the improper 601 "connection" due to speed, abrupt curvature, and the shift of alignment.  The entire 375/601 "connection" was a mistake, is half baked, and is deficient.   
    As for an "I" quality section, the only piece that consistently meets those standards is the section from Montana Avenue to Interstate 10.  It has a 3 x 3 cross section, with some auxiliary lanes, although believe a 4 x 4 build out would have been preferable.  The underpass of Pellicano Avenue might be the best single element on the section.
   The product, that has evolved over the last several decades, is testament to the lack of foresight and horrible/non extant "planning" that exists in the borderland region.  Years, decades even, of fiscal neglect, from Austin, then a massive infusion of cash, then repeated, monumental mistakes were made.   

The Ghostbuster

Why does Loop 375's exit sequence start at 11? Loop 375 officially starts at the corner of Talbot Ave. and Doniphan Dr./TX 20 (former US 80/85/180). It is most definitely not 11 miles from that intersection to Loop 375's interchange with Northwestern Dr., so the exit number would be lower if it were numbered by its actual mileage.

DJStephens

Would suspect that it might? be numbered from some point in downtown, near the rio grande river.  So "11" would be 11 miles N of some point in downtown.   

Bobby5280

It does look like TX DOT is trying to remedy some of the design flaws with the existing Loop 375 freeway. Just North of the Montana Ave interchange they're building new roadway to replace the 50mph rated curve with one featuring a much larger (and higher speed) curve radius. They're doing something similar to the curve just South of the Spur 601 interchange.

But, yeah, there is a LOT of other sub-standard garbage along Loop 375 that has to be fixed before anyone could apply for an Interstate route designation. The Transmountain Drive is just a non-starter unless they wanted to start over and build some tunnels.

The best hope for any sort of "I-210" route in El Paso would depend in part on New Mexico. They would need to build a new freeway, starting from I-10 near the NM-404 exit and going East to meet up with the Northern end of the proposed Borderland Expressway. That project might be why some of the curve improvement work is taking place on the NE portions of Loop 375. Still, the shoulders and some other features on Loop 375 are sub-standard for Interstate status.

DJStephens

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 06, 2023, 12:04:59 PM
It does look like TX DOT is trying to remedy some of the design flaws with the existing Loop 375 freeway. Just North of the Montana Ave interchange they're building new roadway to replace the 50mph rated curve with one featuring a much larger (and higher speed) curve radius. They're doing something similar to the curve just South of the Spur 601 interchange.

But, yeah, there is a LOT of other sub-standard garbage along Loop 375 that has to be fixed before anyone could apply for an Interstate route designation. The Transmountain Drive is just a non-starter unless they wanted to start over and build some tunnels.

The best hope for any sort of "I-210" route in El Paso would depend in part on New Mexico. They would need to build a new freeway, starting from I-10 near the NM-404 exit and going East to meet up with the Northern end of the proposed Borderland Expressway. That project might be why some of the curve improvement work is taking place on the NE portions of Loop 375. Still, the shoulders and some other features on Loop 375 are sub-standard for Interstate status.
Not happening.  The NM department is "finishing" a cheapie four lane of existing NM 404.  Featuring a Flush median, a terrible product is nearing completion.   Another example of it could have been so much better.   

Bobby5280

At least there is plenty of wide open space in the area around the NM-404 corridor. TX DOT can get its projects on Loop-375 and the Borderlands Expressway completed South of the NM border. Then that can make it painfully obvious what needs to get done on the NM side of the border.

Of course, getting an I-quality freeway extension of the Borderlands Expressway built along (or over) NM-404 to I-10 might require a lot of Federal help. That means both funding and overriding the cheapskate habits of NM DOT and the state government.

abqtraveler

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 03, 2023, 06:23:23 PM
Why does Loop 375's exit sequence start at 11? Loop 375 officially starts at the corner of Talbot Ave. and Doniphan Dr./TX 20 (former US 80/85/180). It is most definitely not 11 miles from that intersection to Loop 375's interchange with Northwestern Dr., so the exit number would be lower if it were numbered by its actual mileage.
Because of the unusual way Texas references mileage and exit numbers on non-interstate freeways. Instead of starting at the south/west end of the road and increasing heading north/east, Texas uses a reference system where the northern border between the Texas Panhandle and Oklahoma is used for mileage on north-south routes.  For routes that run east/west, the reference point is the Texas/New Mexico/Mexico tripoint. Since Loop 375 starts as an east-west route, its first exit number is 11 because that is 11 miles from the Texas/New Mexico/Mexico tripoint.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201



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