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District of Columbia

Started by Alex, April 07, 2009, 01:22:25 PM

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vdeane

Wasn't Arlington's opposition mostly because they didn't want the merge from the HOT lanes back to the general lanes in their area?  That wouldn't be a factor if they extended into DC.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on April 18, 2014, 12:21:22 PM
Wasn't Arlington's opposition mostly because they didn't want the merge from the HOT lanes back to the general lanes in their area?  That wouldn't be a factor if they extended into DC.

It was anti-auto/anti-highway/anti-mobility ideology above all.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

mrsman

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Well, the HOV lanes do, or would if VDOT would restore the HOV restrictions on the slip ramp near the Pentagon from the I-395 main lanes to the northbound HOV restriction.  Making that ramp available to all traffic helps mask the inadequacies of the northbound main lanes on the 14th Street, but those issues could be fixed, especially if D.C. would use toll revenue to help pay for the upgrades (ha ha).

Agreed.  And returning it to a restricted lane (HOV-3 or pay a toll) would probably increase vehicle throughput!

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
If D.C. wants to put the squeeze on Arlington County to drop its opposition to a continuous HOT facility in the I-395 median, fine with me.

The opposition in Arlington was mostly ginned-up by one member of the Arlington County Board, who has now resigned from that body.

If D.C. were to formally and on-the-record say to Arlington's elected officials that D.C. wants the HOV/toll facility to extend through Alexandria and Arlington County up to the Potomac River, then I think Arlington would have to give it some very serious consideration.

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Even if not, Transurban might be a logical candidate to manage D.C.'s facility, using some of its infrastructure for and experience with the 495 express lanes.

I can think of two entities that could do it - Transurban being (probably) the most-logical, or if D.C. wanted to look the other way (and if it were legal - not sure if it is), MdTA.

This is nice.  If I understand what you are saying, if DC wanted a HOT lane on the 14th Street approach, Arlington would be all-but-forced into relenting on their opposition to HOT lanes and there would be a HOT facility from Prince William to DC that would be free for carpoolers and toll for others in the dominant direction.

If DC can get a cut of Transurban's money for allowing the toll facility, I'm sure they would be game.  Look at how eagerly they hog up speed camera revenue.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mrsman on April 18, 2014, 01:35:18 PM
This is nice.  If I understand what you are saying, if DC wanted a HOT lane on the 14th Street approach, Arlington would be all-but-forced into relenting on their opposition to HOT lanes and there would be a HOT facility from Prince William to DC that would be free for carpoolers and toll for others in the dominant direction.

If DC can get a cut of Transurban's money for allowing the toll facility, I'm sure they would be game.  Look at how eagerly they hog up speed camera revenue.

I don't think Arlington County (or, for that matter, the City of Alexandria) can be forced into agreement with D.C. on the need to flip the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/toll lanes.

And it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

Having said all of that, if the District of Columbia makes it loud and very clear that they want HOV/Toll lanes on the 14th Street Bridge (which is entirely D.C. jurisdiction), then one of the central arguments raised by Arlington County and its elected officials, "we are a central jurisdiction  and this is unfair to us" suddenly becomes much less credible. 

Now D.C. is doing this in its capacity as a state (even though it is in no way a state, for the purposes of this discussion, it is a state), and it would collect revenues from an HOV/Toll operation. But the local governments in Virginia would likely get no money from an extension of the HOV/Toll lanes to the Virginia shoreline of the 14th Street.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

QuoteAnd it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

But as you likely know, any significant changes to I-395 on the Virginia side would also have to go through the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority, on which both Alexandria and Arlington have voting members.

In conjunction with your other comments, it's quite plausible that we'll have a future scenario under which we have two segments of HO/T lane on I-395 (14th St Bridge and from Turkeycock south), but are HOV only (peak hours) in between.

cpzilliacus

#255
Quote from: froggie on April 18, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
QuoteAnd it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

But as you likely know, any significant changes to I-395 on the Virginia side would also have to go through the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority, on which both Alexandria and Arlington have voting members.

I do not believe NVTA has any authority over a "flip" of the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/Toll lanes, unless the NVTA is spending its own money on the project.

The local entity with power here is the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board (TPB), because such a change has to go into the regional Financially Constrained Long Range Plan (CLRP) and Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) and be analyzed as part of the next Air Quality Conformity Determination.

Both the City of Alexandria and Arlington County (and, for that matter, D.C.) have voting seats on the TPB, where this would have to be discussed before changing or adding to those documents.

Quote from: froggie on April 18, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
In conjunction with your other comments, it's quite plausible that we'll have a future scenario under which we have two segments of HO/T lane on I-395 (14th St Bridge and from Turkeycock south), but are HOV only (peak hours) in between.

Would VDOT go along with that sort of arrangement?  VDOT (and presumably the Commonwealth Transportation Board) would have to agree to a D.C. HOV/Toll treatment at the 14th Street Bridge because of the approaches on the Virginia side.

Maybe more to the point, would any private operator like Transurban be interested in such a short segment of HOV/Toll lanes?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

QuoteI do not believe NVTA has any authority over a "flip" of the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/Toll lanes, unless the NVTA is spending its own money on the project.

If any state or federal money is involved, then yes, the NVTA is involved, per state law.  TPB and MWCOG are the MPO planning agencies for the region, true.  But at the Federal level.  NVTA has state-level authority to not just create a regional transportation plan for Northern Virginia, but also to implement projects.

QuoteWould VDOT go along with that sort of arrangement?  VDOT (and presumably the Commonwealth Transportation Board) would have to agree to a D.C. HOV/Toll treatment at the 14th Street Bridge because of the approaches on the Virginia side.

VDOT may not have much of a choice in the matter, given the past litigation by Arlington County for the 95/395 project.

QuoteMaybe more to the point, would any private operator like Transurban be interested in such a short segment of HOV/Toll lanes?

Who says it has to be a private operator?  There's nothing requiring DDOT to use a private entity to operate any such HO/T lanes.  They could just as easily do it themselves.

cpzilliacus

Washington Post: Plans for HOT lanes on 14th Street Bridge and D.C. freeways still just warming up

QuoteThe District's transportation planners envision sets of high-occupancy toll lanes stretching from Interstate 295 by the Maryland border to the 14th Street Bridge and the Virginia side of the Potomac River.

QuoteBut to see what they see, you'll need powerful binoculars.

QuoteIt's not that managed toll lanes are a bad idea for the extremely busy D.C. bridges and freeways. The concept is worth studying, as many other jurisdictions decided over the past several decades.

QuoteJust don't go underestimating the twists and turns between today's studies and the opening of HOT lanes.

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation is looking first at establishing high occupancy vehicle lanes on the Rochambeau Bridge, the middle span of the 14th Street Bridge complex; on the Southeast-Southwest Freeway, which is Interstate 395 and Interstate 695; and on the Anacostia Freeway, Interstate 295. The HOV lanes could eventually be converted to HOT lanes, in which carpoolers get a free ride but others have to pay tolls.

QuoteThe least difficult part of this program is the 14th Street Bridge segment. What the planners have in mind is designating the four lanes on the Rochambeau span as HOV3, open to vehicles with at least three people aboard. The HOV hours would match those on the Virginia side of I-395. These lanes would later be converted to HOT lanes.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

BrianP


machpost

#259
I don't know if anyone else has noticed it yet, but on northbound DC 295, the overhead sign indicating the exit for RFK Stadium has an Atlanta 1996 Olympics logo next to it. This was covered by a DC United logo for years, but it looks like it has fallen off or been removed. An interesting relic from the time RFK hosted Olympic soccer matches.

Here's a "before" picture of the sign, from this site:


cpzilliacus

Washington Post: U.S. Capitol's former top cop Terry Gainer says complex should expand, bar vehicles

QuoteNobody knows better than Terry Gainer how to make the U.S. Capitol secure. He's the only person to have served as both chief of the Capitol Police and sergeant at arms of the Senate.

QuoteSo it's worth heeding Gainer's views, now that he's free to speak out after retiring last month from the Senate job at the end of 47 distinguished years in law enforcement.

QuoteGainer says he thinks that the threat of terrorist vehicle bombs obliges Congress and the District to substantially expand the Capitol complex by gradually buying up surrounding blocks and banning traffic there.

QuoteBasically, he wants to create a spacious, pedestrian-only campus at the east end of the Mall. It would ban vehicles from more than a dozen square blocks where they're now allowed and extend from the Capitol north to Union Station and east to Second Street.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...

cpzilliacus

Washington Post: The lousy state of D.C.'s streets explained in 14 slides and two charts

QuoteOn Tuesday, D.C. Council member Mary M. Cheh (D-Ward 3) invited city transportation officials to fill her in on the state of the city's streets. After a long, cold winter, complaints about the pocked condition of city roadways have risen even higher than usual, Cheh said, and the officials needed to provide answers.

QuoteHere are a few, courtesy of a District Department of Transportation slide show.

QuoteThe District has more than 4,000 lane-miles of roadway. (A lane-mile is a mile of pavement one lane wide; i.e., a mile-long stretch of four-lane street equals four lane-miles.) About half are eligible to be maintained with federal funds; the other half are not.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:32 AM[Emphasis added]

Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...

Meant to answer you before and forgot.

Your second point (which I bolded) is the really damning one. 

In addition to forcing motorists to take a different route (in and of itself, that's not a terrible deal), it would presumably force an assortment of bus routes (WMATA, D.C. Circulator, MTA Flyer and PRTC) to take longer and more-circuitous routes (that is a problem).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

mrsman

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 10, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:32 AM[Emphasis added]

Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...

Meant to answer you before and forgot.

Your second point (which I bolded) is the really damning one. 

In addition to forcing motorists to take a different route (in and of itself, that's not a terrible deal), it would presumably force an assortment of bus routes (WMATA, D.C. Circulator, MTA Flyer and PRTC) to take longer and more-circuitous routes (that is a problem).

I agree a closure of this magnitude would be terrible for traffic.  Although as roadgeeks, it would be fun to imagine how it would be implemented.

And for a road closure to "work" at some level, you have to do more than close off the streets right at the security boundary.  Look at the problems at the White House.

OK, so they have to close E Street and Penn Ave between 15th and 17th, but what do they do to make it overall better? Not enough.  IMO the clusterf**ks at Penn/I/21st and NY/13th/H could be eliminated if they did the following:

- All westbound NY Ave traffic is shunted onto I street.  NY Ave is one-way eastbound between H and I.

- All of H Street eastbound traffic (from the White House area) is shunted onto NY Ave at 13th, and all of the two-way H Street traffic from central Downtown is shunted onto NY Ave.  This is done in a manner similar to the way 17th and Connecticut don't cross around Farragut Square.  In other words, H and NY don't cross.  But the majority traffic (eastbound H from west of the White House) will connect with the more major route (NY Ave headed to Mt Vernon Square).

- Penn Ave is one-way eastbound between 21st and 19th.  This eliminates the conflict between westbound Penn and I street traffic.  (I.e. I Street traffic would get the entire green time that is not allocated to 21st, since there would be no merge with Penn Ave traffic.)  Then, all of Penn Ave eastbound traffic is shunted onto H Street.  Penn Ave is closed between 18th and 19th.  This allows for a much larger Edward R. Murrow Park.  The low traffic block of Penn between 18th and 17th would connect directly with H Street that is west of 18th.

So, ironically, it would improve traffic to close or narrow even more streets, so long as conflicts can be eliminated and through traffic should be shunted onto the one-way streets meant to carry the traffic and not be forced to make sharp turns at the closures right on 15th and 17th streets.

MillTheRoadgeek

Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  :hmmm: My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...

TheOneKEA

Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on July 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  :hmmm: My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...

New Hampshire Avenue also goes a long way out into Montgomery County, and the name ends at MD 97.

Alps

Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on July 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...
Google shows Pennsylvania going out to the Patuxent, not that I necessarily believe that. Central almost seems like the opposite - a street from outside DC getting its name carried in a little way.

froggie

QuoteGoogle shows Pennsylvania going out to the Patuxent, not that I necessarily believe that.

I do.  MD 4 and Pennsylvania Ave are synonymous in Prince George's County.  Much like MD 97 and Georgia Ave in Montgomery County (aside from a few blocks in Silver Spring).

cpzilliacus

According to Google Maps, Central Avenue (Md. 214) changes names to Mayo Road where 214 intersects Shesley Road.  That's well beyond 29 miles from the Capitol Dome (using East Capitol Street & 1st Street as a substitute, since that is the closest road pavement that the public can drive on).

If we follow the 2012 Highway Location Reference, Md. 4 is only known as Pennsylvania Avenue as far out from D.C. as Md. 223, Woodyard Road.  That's just 11.7 miles.  Beyond that, the state calls it Stephanie Roper Highway as far as the Patuxent River Bridge, which is also the border between Prince George's County and Anne Arundel County.  If we assume that Pennsylvania Avenue goes all the way to the Patuxent River (as Google does), then the distance is 18.7 miles.  More about Stephanie Roper here.

Georgia Avenue out to its furthest distance from the Capitol is about 26.4 miles on Md. 97 north of (unincorporated) Sunshine, again, at the Patuxent River, this time the boundary between Montgomery County and Howard County. 

New Hampshire Avenue (Md. 650) also ends at Md. 97 ... in Sunshine.  It is also 26.4 miles from the Capitol, though following Md. 650 is less-direct than Md. 97, even though the end of Georgia Avenue is north of Sunshine.  Md. 650 continues to the north and west as Damascus Road, finally coming to an end at Md. 108 in Etchison.

So Central Avenue does appear to be the champ.   It helps that Central Avenue begins in D.C., crosses all of Prince George's County and nearly all of Anne Arundel County, finally giving up its name pretty close to the beaches of the Chesapeake Bay.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).

1995hoo

Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).


I'd never heard it either, but the Roper name does show up on maps, including both Google and Bing (indeed I saw it on Google Maps prior to CP's post when I was pondering some of the prior comments in this thread). It's hardly unusual for a road to bear a formal name that isn't in general use by most of the public. Sixth Avenue in New York (purportedly "Avenue of the Americas," but not to 99% of New Yorkers) is a fine example of that sort of thing.

I know US-301 through Waldorf (and probably to either side of that area) is supposedly "Crain Highway," though I've never heard anyone use that name to refer to it either.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).

It is now signed by SHA, and in the 2012 Highway Location Reference for Prince George's County.

And yes, it is a memorial designation.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).


I'd never heard it either, but the Roper name does show up on maps, including both Google and Bing (indeed I saw it on Google Maps prior to CP's post when I was pondering some of the prior comments in this thread). It's hardly unusual for a road to bear a formal name that isn't in general use by most of the public. Sixth Avenue in New York (purportedly "Avenue of the Americas," but not to 99% of New Yorkers) is a fine example of that sort of thing.

I know US-301 through Waldorf (and probably to either side of that area) is supposedly "Crain Highway," though I've never heard anyone use that name to refer to it either.

Crain Highway extends from the Gov. Harry Nice Memorial Bridge north along U.S. 301 to Bowie.

It continues along Md. 3 north into Anne Arundel County, and "disappears" at I-97 in Millersville/Gambrills, only to reappear as Md. 3 Business runs off of I-97 south of Glen Burnie.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

oscar

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 15, 2014, 02:29:19 PM
Crain Highway extends from the Gov. Harry Nice Memorial Bridge north along U.S. 301 to Bowie.

It continues along Md. 3 north into Anne Arundel County, and "disappears" at I-97 in Millersville/Gambrills, only to reappear as Md. 3 Business runs off of I-97 south of Glen Burnie.

The tipoff is a lot of Old Crain Highway street signs of bypassed segments of the old highway.

In the "close but no cigar" category, re:  the OP's inquiry, both the (Robert E.) Lee and Jefferson Davis highways in Virginia are really long roads, which come thisclose to the D.C. line in Arlington, but never were part of or extensions of the D.C. street network (except perhaps, under pre-Confederate names, before Arlington was retroceded from the District in 1846). 
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