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Oklahoma Turnpike History Question on Tolls

Started by Bobby5280, September 02, 2016, 09:44:04 PM

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cl94

Quote from: corco on May 15, 2017, 12:13:17 AM
I would argue that the way the bill is phrased, "Liberty Memorial Parkway" is merely an ancillary name, with "Creek Turnpike" still being the primary name of the roadway in that area anyway. It's like I-15 through Montana is the "Vietnam Veterans Highway" - same situation. That doesn't make it not I-15. One set of city council minutes referencing it once as "Liberty Parkway" is hardly compelling evidence that the road is primarily known by that name.

Hell, even if it IS a formal name (doesn't appear so, as it's effectively unposted), doesn't mean it's the primary name. How many people do you figure refer to I-270 in Columbus as the "Jack Nickalus Freeway" or the New York Thruway as the "Malcom Wilson Thruway"? Zero. None. Nada. Both are the formal names.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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corco

Yes, that's the point. It's both, but "Creek Turnpike" is the terminology that is in far more common use - therefore that's a more appropriate name for the roadway. There are dozens of highways throughout the country designated with multiple names - in nearly every instance, the "through" name is the actual name, regardless of whether or not there are one or two signs with the secondary name along the route.

bugo

It's a ceremonial name. Why doesn't anyone call OK 51 the "42nd "ĖœRainbow' Infantry Division Memorial Highway" ? Why don't you call US 64 the "Kit Carson Highway" ? Is the Keystone Expressway really the "Cimarron Highway" ? Is US 169 the  " Pearl Harbor Memorial Expressway"? No, it's the "Mingo Valley Expressway" and has been for decades. If you keep referring to roads by obscure ancillary names then don't be surprised when the person you're giving directions to doesn't have a clue to what the hell you're talking about. You also need to remove these tertiary and quaternary names from the OSM if you don't want to confuse travelers looking for nonexistent signs or nobody will ever take it seriously (newsflash: everybody from tourists to cartographers think it's a total joke.)

bugo

You're wrong about the Creek having no traffic. Sure traffic is pretty light east of 51st but west of there it quickly picks up. It is downright heavy at times from 71st to US 75, er, the  "American Wars Highway" .

hotdogPi

Quote from: US71 on June 24, 2017, 09:21:46 PM
Besides, you know GPS isn't 100 percent reliable given the number of people who drive into brick walls.

Brick walls? I've heard about GPS directions using closed mountain roads covered with snow, covered bridges (cars are fine, but trucks will destroy the bridge), the infamous 11'8" bridge... but no walls where a road never existed.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 44, 50
MA 22, 35, 40, 107, 109, 126, 141, 159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 25

Bobby5280

I've seen news stories of people driving down into deep ravines because the road ended at a "T" intersection but GPS said the road continued through the intersection.

bugo

Then there's the infamous story of when the Kansas Turnpike ended at a gravel section line road at the Oklahoma border. There were large stop signs and warning signs, but some drivers continued through the intersection and ended up in a farmer's field.

Scott5114

Quote from: bugo on June 25, 2017, 06:40:37 PM
Then there's the infamous story of when the Kansas Turnpike ended at a gravel section line road at the Oklahoma border. There were large stop signs and warning signs, but some drivers continued through the intersection and ended up in a farmer's field.

KTA eventually gave up and closed all of the Turnpike between the state line and exit 4 until I-35 was built in Oklahoma.

Before then, the plan was for Oklahoma to build a connecting turnpike to OKC, but OTA's credit score was shot from building the Turner Turnpike and they were unable to get financing for construction. All of the surveying and design work that had been completed for the turnpike was turned over to the Department of Highways when the Interstate System was created.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

bugo

Here's something that has never been answered: Why were the turnpikes built in the 1960s and 1970s built to the same standard as the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes were built to in the 1950s? The Bailey, Muskogee, Indian Nation and Cimarron turnpikes were built with the narrow grassy median and no left shoulders. Interstates built by ODOT weren't designed like this. Why was the OTA still building their turnpikes using outdated specifications?

Scott5114

Quote from: bugo on June 27, 2017, 01:00:11 AM
Here's something that has never been answered: Why were the turnpikes built in the 1960s and 1970s built to the same standard as the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes were built to in the 1950s? The Bailey, Muskogee, Indian Nation and Cimarron turnpikes were built with the narrow grassy median and no left shoulders. Interstates built by ODOT weren't designed like this. Why was the OTA still building their turnpikes using outdated specifications?

That is a very interesting question.

My guess, based on no evidence, is that because those later turnpikes were not intended to carry an Interstate designation, OTA felt there was no need to build them to Interstate standards, and continued using their early 50s standards. Unfortunately, it seems like the sort of question whose answer would be found in some memorandum laying around in OTA archives somewhere, unless a spokesman happened to go on record and mention it in a newspaper article.

My research so far has been focused on the 1990s turnpikes and the Turner, so I haven't really had a chance to dig into the history of the 60s/70s turnpikes yet, unfortunately.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

rte66man

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2017, 12:59:46 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 27, 2017, 01:00:11 AM
Here's something that has never been answered: Why were the turnpikes built in the 1960s and 1970s built to the same standard as the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes were built to in the 1950s? The Bailey, Muskogee, Indian Nation and Cimarron turnpikes were built with the narrow grassy median and no left shoulders. Interstates built by ODOT weren't designed like this. Why was the OTA still building their turnpikes using outdated specifications?

That is a very interesting question.

My guess, based on no evidence, is that because those later turnpikes were not intended to carry an Interstate designation, OTA felt there was no need to build them to Interstate standards, and continued using their early 50s standards. Unfortunately, it seems like the sort of question whose answer would be found in some memorandum laying around in OTA archives somewhere, unless a spokesman happened to go on record and mention it in a newspaper article.

I agree.  I also suspect they were trying to build them as cheaply as possible.  That would also explain the substandard bridge clearances. 
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

rte66man

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2017, 11:40:23 AM
Quote from: bugo on June 25, 2017, 06:40:37 PM
Then there's the infamous story of when the Kansas Turnpike ended at a gravel section line road at the Oklahoma border. There were large stop signs and warning signs, but some drivers continued through the intersection and ended up in a farmer's field.

KTA eventually gave up and closed all of the Turnpike between the state line and exit 4 until I-35 was built in Oklahoma.

Before then, the plan was for Oklahoma to build a connecting turnpike to OKC, but OTA's credit score was shot from building the Turner Turnpike and they were unable to get financing for construction. All of the surveying and design work that had been completed for the turnpike was turned over to the Department of Highways when the Interstate System was created.

https://www.pikepass.com/about/History.aspx
Quote
The Oklahoma Legislature passed SB 454 on June 8, 1953 amending HB 933, which had passed just a month earlier, adding authorization to build a Turnpike from Oklahoma City to Wichita Falls, Texas (later named the H.E. Bailey Turnpike) and a Turnpike from Oklahoma City to Wichita, Kansas (the approximate present day alignment of Interstate 35 to Oklahoma City to Wichita).

It is the only mention I could find on their website.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

bugo

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 07, 2016, 10:58:41 AM
I've taken the Creek Turnpike only a couple of times when there was a destination South of Tulsa I was visiting, such as the new Warren Theater complex. If I'm passing through Tulsa I usually just stay on I-44. It's a must more straight, direct route.

The Creek Turnpike was built with a far too crooked and winding path, much like many new freeways and tollways. It's a huge reason why I-69 is a giant waste and will benefit only local and regional traffic between Indianapolis and the Texas border.

The Creek Turnpike was a lot more useful as an I-44 bypass before I-44 was rebuilt in midtown Tulsa. Since they rebuilt it, you're usually better off staying on I-44 unless you come through during rush hour.



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