AARoads Forum

I have been thinking about this topic because many of the button copy signs are becoming rarer and rarer around the NY, NJ, CT Tri-State Area and they are being replaced with those "regular" signs that just seem much less interesting and disappointing. So give your opinions if the button lettering should come back or signage should remain "modern".

The only way to bring Button copy back is to go WAY back... True old school! Button copy as intended... on NON-retro sheeting.  That means you'll have to light it all too! :)  I like lighted BGS's they are SO rare in the Northeast.  And with the declining price of LED'S and the econimcal costs of running them... Maybe a return to the old could be a technological advance in itself !!!

But if it's going to be Button copy , a la CT 1985-1993... FORGET IT.. button copy on retro sheeting is just a plain disaster, and dangerous too if you ever have to rely on the signs at night.

off topic: oh and BTW Roadmaestro and lets hope the Rangers can keep this series alive tonight 2nd Period!... my local AHL club... the Rangers affiliate just Moppped up the Bridgeport sound tigers in a 3 game sweep of the first round.  Let's Go Rangers!... Let's Go Whale! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/76971031@N02/6961973904/)

Wytout I agree with using the Non-Retro Sheeting with the button copy. And no CT button copy but Long Island Button Copy that's used with NJ style NY Route signs which I like.

And GO RANGERS!

Unfortunately, this is an impossibility. Button copy is no longer manufactured.

Then again, anybody could change that, but it's very doubtful.

NJDOT used retro sheeting with button copy for many years... up until it ceased production. No readability problems, some of the signs still have working lights too. What I can't figure out is NJDOT's policy on lights, I still see brand new installations with lighting, while some don't have it at all. Even without LEDs, running the lights with compact florescent bulbs would still be cheaper then mercury vapor... and easier on the eyes then high pressure sodium. (NJDOT, NJ Turnpike Authority is guilty of that, along with some other state DOTs)

^ Except that fluorescent bulbs don't tend to do well in cold or changing weather, at least from my experience/observations.

I love the look of button copy signs, but from the practical perspective I don't think they'd ever make a comeback given current reflection materials.

After seeing so many older button copy BGS around the nation, it makes me wonder is it really that much cheaper to re-sheet a sign every 7-10 years?

The sheeting fades or cracks rather quickly in most heavily-sunlit places in Florida, which seems to be an unnecessary expense in it's own right.

Then again, if sheeting costs a mere fraction of button/demountable copy, then that's the way the fiscal ball bounces.

Quote from: roadfro on April 23, 2012, 09:55:23 PM
^ Except that fluorescent bulbs don't tend to do well in cold or changing weather, at least from my experience/observations.

Our local electric utility (PSE&G) has been quickly retrofitting in "induction fixture" florescent street lights that seem to work in extreme cold. A similar application can be used for BGS installations. One plus is the streetlights don't suffer from extreme light pollution, unlike HPS. I haven't seen these lights anywhere else outside of PSE&G's service territory, hopefully they catch on.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110531006226/en/Lighting-Tech-Successfully-Completes-World%E2%80%99s-Largest-Induction

http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/2009/09/new_energy-efficient_streetlig.html

I've always felt button-copy was hard to read in low-light conditions, even back when my eyes were better than they are today. Is there anything good about it, other than the quaint look?

I voted no because I loathe the button-copy state and US route markers CT erected in the 1980s and 1990s. I very much prefer the black on white markers.

Bad (CT 163): http://www.flickr.com/photos/therealkurumi/4357139764/in/set-7215762365768440
Good (CT 162): http://www.flickr.com/photos/therealkurumi/4357144454/in/set-72157623657684402

Quote from: kurumi on April 24, 2012, 03:05:39 AM
I voted no because I loathe the button-copy state and US route markers CT erected in the 1980s and 1990s. I very much prefer the black on white markers.

Bad (CT 163): http://www.flickr.com/photos/therealkurumi/4357139764/in/set-7215762365768440
Good (CT 162): http://www.flickr.com/photos/therealkurumi/4357144454/in/set-72157623657684402

That type of sign only works for CA signage...I agree on the ugliness of the route markers used in button copy signage in CT.

Why would it work for CA but not CT?

I have also seen photos of similar signage in LA -- meaning Louisiana, not the city in CA.

I'm one of the only people who actually likes the Connecticut button copy. Sure it sucks to read at night, but it was different.

Quote from: PennDOTFan on April 24, 2012, 04:58:15 PM
I'm one of the only people who actually likes the Connecticut button copy. Sure it sucks to read at night, but it was different.

I like it, too. And I had no problems with the newer button copy signage when I drove most of I-95 at night a couple of years ago. The hardest signs to read were the ones that didn't reflect, not those that did.

Oh, heck, let's just go for the gusto!

All street blades should be button-copy.
All county line signs should be button-copy.
All parking zone restrictions should be button-copy.
All Burma-Shave signs should be button-copy.
All license plates should be button-copy.
All highway patrolmen's name tags should be button-copy.

There's no practical reason to switch over.

I'd advocate bringing back button copy, in a sense, only if the button copy elements were white LEDs instead of reflectors. LED technology is pretty cheap now and it would probably be fairly legible. However, if we're going back to button reflectors, while the roadgeek in me finds them appealing, I don't think anyone else can argue that microprismatic sheeting doesn't do the job much better.

My workplace recently replaced some dot matrix printers with laser printers, and while there are some problems with the way the implementation was done (the reason dot matrix was still in use was because triplicate paper was being used, so now we have to sign forms three times instead of once), technology has left the dot matrix printer in the dust, and it was really time to switch. It's the same with button copy.

We may as well advocate for toll due displays to switch to Nixie tubes...

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
I'd advocate bringing back button copy, in a sense, only if the button copy elements were white LEDs instead of reflectors.

how much longer before all signs are a programmable array of LEDs?  all VMS all the time.

^^^^

Or simply on HUDs in our vehicles or maybe wired directly into our brains.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 26, 2012, 06:05:14 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
I'd advocate bringing back button copy, in a sense, only if the button copy elements were white LEDs instead of reflectors.

how much longer before all signs are a programmable array of LEDs?  all VMS all the time.

Even using LEDs, power consumption costs will probably continue to favor traditional-style signs, most of which don't really need to change often enough for there to be any significant cost savings to make the programmability a factor.

^^^

I think you're taking Jake's post too seriously.  :sombrero:

Nah, I've just thought about what futuristic traffic control devices might look like perhaps a bit too much :D

What would be the ultimate is holographic road signs, a la Star Trek...when there's an accident, cones and signage appear out of thin air around the incident...

To answer the title question: Hell NO!

LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS. 

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS. 

Not as much as you might think. They're pretty much the lighting of choice over fluorescents these days in slot machines, and probably most other applications. Individual diodes are pretty cheap and don't draw much power since they are much more efficient (cooler).

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 08:07:57 PM
Nah, I've just thought about what futuristic traffic control devices might look like perhaps a bit too much :D

What would be the ultimate is holographic road signs, a la Star Trek...when there's an accident, cones and signage appear out of thin air around the incident...

I suspect that self-driving cars will eliminate the need for highway signage well before we develop technology like that :)

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 08:07:57 PM
Nah, I've just thought about what futuristic traffic control devices might look like perhaps a bit too much :D

What would be the ultimate is holographic road signs, a la Star Trek...when there's an accident, cones and signage appear out of thin air around the incident...

or just beam out the offending vehicle.  crashed?  off ya go to the police.  stalled?  off ya go to the repair shop.  40 in a 65 in the fast lane?  off ya go, who cares where.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 30, 2012, 06:59:00 PM
40 in a 65 in the fast lane?  off ya go, who cares where.

How about 50 yards to the right?

I think the new ones are just fine. I think im slightly turned off by button copy since all of them here you can tell are old and theyre dirty and it doesn't look good. I could care less about it being new. Plus the pieces fall off then it looks a little crummy.

I would appreciate button copy returning, all I ask for Caltrans is to at least power-wash these signs or something. Otherwise, keep them!

They even could do a "retro" thing, when I think of Button Copy I think of the 101, or CA 1 for soem reason... put it back on those roadways, but I don't think anyone would really notice unless they put it out there that they're doing retro signage on those routes

Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
Unfortunately, this is an impossibility. Button copy is no longer manufactured.

Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.

Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on July 15, 2012, 10:34:37 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
Unfortunately, this is an impossibility. Button copy is no longer manufactured.

Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.

But the plastic letters with holes in them for the buttons aren't manufactured.

Button copy on Engineer Grade (ASTM Type I), Super Engineer Grade (ASTM Type II) and Encapsulated Lens High Intensity (ASTM Type III) background never had any contrast problems.  It's when you get into the prismatic sheetings (ASTM Type IV, VIII, IX, and the pending XI) that you run into problems with the background washing out the button legends.

I've heard this is the reason that, when the signs on the MassPike were last updated in the mid-1990s, button copy was used only on the signs on the Extension.  The story goes that, after the projects were awarded and work was underway on the Extension, the Turnpike Authority changed the contract specifications to call for Type IV prismatic sheeting (instead of Type III) for sign backgrounds.  A number of "button copy on Type IV background" signs were installed, and the "why can't I read the new signs at night" complaints started coming in almost immediately.

Shortly thereafter, the Authority amended their specification yet again to call for Type IV legend on Type IV background, and the era of button copy on the Pike (except for those signs installed on the Extension) came to a close.

Quote from: roadman on July 16, 2012, 09:51:23 AM
Button copy on Engineer Grade (ASTM Type I), Super Engineer Grade (ASTM Type II) and Encapsulated Lens High Intensity (ASTM Type III) background never had any contrast problems.  It's when you get into the prismatic sheetings (ASTM Type IV, VIII, IX, and the pending XI) that you run into problems with the background washing out the button legends.

I've heard this is the reason that, when the signs on the MassPike were last updated in the mid-1990s, button copy was used only on the signs on the Extension.  The story goes that, after the projects were awarded and work was underway on the Extension, the Turnpike Authority changed the contract specifications to call for Type IV prismatic sheeting (instead of Type III) for sign backgrounds.  A number of "button copy on Type IV background" signs were installed, and the "why can't I read the new signs at night" complaints started coming in almost immediately.

Shortly thereafter, the Authority amended their specification yet again to call for Type IV legend on Type IV background, and the era of button copy on the Pike (except for those signs installed on the Extension) came to a close.

It wouldn't be the case, perchance, that many/most/all of the button copy east of 128 was in fact Type IV background? Because that shit washes out like chalk on a Cincinnati sidewalk.

I'm pretty sure I've seen some pretty illegible button copy on Type III.  Connecticut comes to mind.

Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on July 15, 2012, 10:34:37 PM


Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.

I'd like to know where.  I do not know of the small sizes (smaller than #1 size, which is 15/16") being currently made.

Quote from: Steve on July 16, 2012, 07:31:19 PM

It wouldn't be the case, perchance, that many/most/all of the button copy east of 128 was in fact Type IV background? Because that shit washes out like chalk on a Cincinnati sidewalk.

It was my understanding that the majority of the signs east of Interstate 95 were indeed fabricated with button copy on Type III background.  I suspect that much of the wash-out problem may have more to do with a combination of the external illumination on the signs and the age of the signs (similar to the current situation with the old button copy signs on the S.E. Expressway) than the background sheeting. 

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 16, 2012, 12:39:46 AMBut the plastic letters with holes in them for the buttons aren't manufactured.

If they were able to come up with them from scratch in the 1950s, they can most certainly come up with them from scratch again.

I really like the appearance of button copy (especially Connecticut!) at night, and I would definitely advocate for LED copy. Heck, even on Clearview!

Bring back button copy, or make a new E(M) lettering that's only retroreflective in the centers of the strokes, to a width equivalent to the old reflective buttons.

Or, you know, just switch to Series E with interletter spacing so it takes up as much space as E(M).

https://furrywa.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/button-copy-freeway-signs/

Here is a take on Button Copy.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 24, 2012, 10:15:38 PM

Quote from: PennDOTFan on April 24, 2012, 04:58:15 PM
I'm one of the only people who actually likes the Connecticut button copy. Sure it sucks to read at night, but it was different.

I like it, too. And I had no problems with the newer button copy signage when I drove most of I-95 at night a couple of years ago. The hardest signs to read were the ones that didn't reflect, not those that did.

There disappearing from my area right now. I find them aesthetically pleasing, but signage is more form over function for me. I can navigate without much help from signs.

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS.

I personally am hoping for an LED solution. Florida's been phasing out our lighted street signs for years (which I find a bit ironic as at the same time they have been steadily going more heavily into the backlit street blades) and I'll miss them.

The refelective signs need replacement every 7 years. If LEDs continue to come down in price as they've been doing and increase in reliability, it very well could cost less to have LED signs. I know a while back I was looking at fast-food style menu boards and apparently the LED LCD screens were both far cheaper to install and far cheaper to operate, on top of all the other more obvious advantages.

We just revived a 6 year old thread.

Quote from: UCFKnights on June 02, 2018, 09:41:06 PM

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS.

I personally am hoping for an LED solution. Florida's been phasing out our lighted street signs for years (which I find a bit ironic as at the same time they have been steadily going more heavily into the backlit street blades) and I'll miss them.

The refelective signs need replacement every 7 years. If LEDs continue to come down in price as they've been doing and increase in reliability, it very well could cost less to have LED signs. I know a while back I was looking at fast-food style menu boards and apparently the LED LCD screens were both far cheaper to install and far cheaper to operate, on top of all the other more obvious advantages.

Why do reflective signs have to be replaced every 7 years? Do they just lose their reflectiveness over time?

I don’t think we can make the jump and say we’ll have LED signs in the future, because we have to take into account that there are likely going to be advances in reflective technology as well as LEDs. Surely a better, longer-lasting reflecting material will be developed in the future. Plus I don’t think I’d want LED signs anyway. What if the power goes out? It would probably cost a shit ton of money for every single BGS to have a backup battery.

Button copy is only cool because it’s old and they don’t install it anymore, which makes it a rare find. If every road had tons of button copy on it, I don’t think we’d care. Today’s reflective signs are so much more readable than button copy at night. Of course, the rate at which button copy signs are disappearing is the reason it’s so cool to find one (especially in a state like Utah, which replaces signage like there’s no tomorrow). I’m aware of a grand total of two button copy signs left in Utah, although there are probably more hiding around somewhere.

Certain states have to replace their reflective signage more often than others. It has to do with temperature and exposure to the sun, if I'm not mistaken.

Kentucky has some quite old signage on its interstates and parkways. A sign replacement project was done on I-64 east of Winchester about 20 years ago, and those signs are in pretty good shape.

I heard somewhere that Type XI sheeting is supposed to have a longer life than other sheeting types, combined with the benefits of both Type VIII and IX.

No, because it kinda looks weird when looking at them at night. I mean, they do look nice, but I think the sheeting ones look better. It shows you the green as well.

Here's a button copy sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6527904,-74.4508068,3a,35.6y,240.39h,106.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-R0P80b_oI3b3Q77S8YCfA!2e0!5s20160701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Here's a sheeting sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7675883,-78.4959772,3a,57.3y,274.28h,95.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seBrOQwnQbMw_j4CW73kdQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I'm pretty sure everybody in this forum knows what a button-copy sign looks like.

The button-copy signs were a stroke of genius back in the day, but given the improved technology that has improved the signs' legibility over the years, I really don't see any reason to bring them back.

Whatever happened to "electronic ink? How come we aren't seeing any of that on road signs?

HELL NO then all signs would be a disaster like on California's Freeways.  Can't see shit and they shine black! 

Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades. 

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.

please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about

Quote from: csw on September 09, 2019, 08:47:52 PM

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.

please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about

That's about how long reflective signs  last in my neck of the woods.  They are replaced about every 5-10 years.

To answer the OP:  No, I would not want to go back to button copy.  Fully reflective signs are much easier to read.

Quote from: renegade on September 09, 2019, 09:31:41 PM

Quote from: csw on September 09, 2019, 08:47:52 PM

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on September 09, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Not only are button-copy signs very attractive to behold, but they seem to be far more durable and long lasting than the modern day laminate signs (if that's the correct term).  New signs today seem to only last 5-10 years while the original button-copy signs lasted decades.

please cite some examples cause I don't know what you're talking about

That's about how long reflective signs  last in my neck of the woods.  They are replaced about every 5-10 years.

To answer the OP:  No, I would not want to go back to button copy.  Fully reflective signs are much easier to read.

Agree with you. They are easier to read and it's not as childish when looking at the buttons. Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6888696,-77.9679122,3a,39.9y,311.94h,96.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1gbywwdcJh72EVJDche9Fg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If you look closely, it has a bottom frame and those lights.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.834381,-78.299955,3a,79.1y,287.92h,94.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCQQwfTLYp1yAdF-jx_H16Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This one doesn't have it. Any suggestions? I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 09, 2019, 10:50:44 PM
Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?
<...>
I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

Within the past 10-15 or so years, newer reflective sheeting styles have been introduced that reflects a lot more of the light from headlights, such that external lighting sources are not necessary to provide the same level of illumination at night. Given this technological advancement, many agencies are now using this sheeting style for signs and not installing/removing sign lighting in order to save money on associated operation & maintenance costs.

This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1792/43762647272_9b3ce2502c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29Fa1nf)

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1792/43762647272_9b3ce2502c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29Fa1nf)

that sign is hot garbage, try reading that going 70 mph on the freeway.  nope not gonna happen.  current signs will shine green and in full context.  only problem with them is in the winter moisture gets on them and makes them hard to read. button copies are beautiful signs meant for a museum, not the road anymore.

Yeah, those button copy signs are a bye-bye.

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1792/43762647272_9b3ce2502c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29Fa1nf)

Any remaining button copy signs are in the 99.9th percentile of longevity. This sign's replacement will probably not last 50 years, but there will be a few signs around the country being installed today that will last until at least 2069.

Quote from: silverback1065 on September 10, 2019, 09:07:00 PM

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 10, 2019, 02:59:19 PM
This sign is about 50 years old and holds up.  Will the new BGSs still hold up as well in 50 years?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1792/43762647272_9b3ce2502c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29Fa1nf)

that sign is hot garbage, try reading that going 70 mph on the freeway. 

Yeah, at highway speeds, an unfamiliar sign won't be as readable from a greater distance. Pretty sure that T-intersection isn't designed for 70 mph, anyhow.

Quote from: 1 on September 11, 2019, 06:16:40 AM
Any remaining button copy signs are in the 99.9th percentile of longevity. This sign's replacement will probably not last 50 years, but there will be a few signs around the country being installed today that will last until at least 2069.

Not sure how many signs with modern sheeting are going to hold up more than 20 years without considerable fading and tearing (there may be a few in areas with limited sunlight exposure which might last longer), as there are many 10-year-old signs that can't last that long.

I think those with reflective metal panels and other types of demountable copy (no buttons) may last several decades, and have proven to do so. But the expense is greater, and they're not as widely-used anymore.

I found two in Asheville here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5955921,-82.5696516,3a,19.7y,144.22h,105.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sI9Hpu0MIKqhUpDg94lzc6A!2e0!5s20130501T000000!7i13312!8i6656). Removed and replaced with sheeting by now, I'm pretty sure those were the last ones still standing that have been replaced then.

I know the letter y is longer, the g, and t are different as well.

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:32:55 PM
I know the letter y is longer, the g, and t are different as well.

Yeah, that's something I haven't seen discussed on here that often–there were subtle differences in the letterforms the major button copy vendors used compared to the standard fonts (I'm guessing to make the letterforms fit reflectors of a given size). The digits were also subtly different (I remember the 2 had a noticeable little hump in the back, and the 5 was more closed-up than the standard font).

Quote from: roadfro on September 10, 2019, 11:05:59 AM

Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 09, 2019, 10:50:44 PM
Also, I did send a link that had the picture without bottom lighting, I'm not sure why that is! Any suggestions why they don't really make signs with a bottom frame (bottom lights)?
<...>
I think it looks weird without the lighting. I think I like the ones that had the lighting.

Within the past 10-15 or so years, newer reflective sheeting styles have been introduced that reflects a lot more of the light from headlights, such that external lighting sources are not necessary to provide the same level of illumination at night. Given this technological advancement, many agencies are now using this sheeting style for signs and not installing/removing sign lighting in order to save money on associated operation & maintenance costs.

Well, for this one, they are replacing the lighting on all these highways listed above. Nothing in this document states that the signs would be replaced and this is rare of how they are doing that here.

Here are examples that the sign lighting will be replaced: https://goo.gl/maps/fxSDB8bMrqz1xgYy9

https://goo.gl/maps/MxHULsuHj2bTvb3G9 (US-70 and I-85 business will get removed so signs here will most likely be replaced instead of the lighting).

https://connect.ncdot.gov/letting/Division%207%20Letting/11-04-2021/D7POC372%20Proposal.pdf

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/52394111003/in/dateposted-public/
I think so.

In California it seems they're having trouble letting go.

It would solve this problem:  your headlights illuminate a sign, except the green background reflects much better than the legend, such that the legend appears black on a green background until your right up on the sign–then, for just a split-second, it looks the way it should.

Button copy or not, "dark"-colored backgrounds should be less reflective than the legend. Uniform retroreflectivity is a foolish requirement.

Quote from: vtk on October 17, 2022, 12:35:46 PM
Button copy or not, "dark"-colored backgrounds should be less reflective than the legend. Uniform retroreflectivity is a foolish requirement.

I think the idea FHWA is working with is that people need to be able to see the color of the background.

I feel like the easiest way of handling that would be to have a, say, 3" retroreflective green border inset from the 3" white one. Then have just the legend reflective on non-reflective green.

Or just use engineer grade background and high-intensity legend. That'd be cheaper than what we're doing now, anyway.

One thing that I feel needs to be addressed is the rate at which modern BGS degrade. Now this doesn't apply to every jurisdiction, but some definitely have issues with their signs lasting barely half a decade before the start of peeling. By the decade mark, several elements are peeling or worn out. ISTHA and ODOT (Oklahoma) seem to be big offenders in this department. I was on I-90 heading out to Rockford and I saw one of the TOLL banners on one of the signs flapping about in the wind. The sign is not even 10 years old.

Fading is also an issue in some cases, but that's not an issue exclusive to newer signs.

Meanwhile, classic button copy signs can last for several decades. This is getting into the engineering of the panels but what does a DOT like WisDOT do that ISTHA doesn't? I want to say it's because WisDOT still uses some form of demountable elements, whereas ISTHA just uses decals.

Either way, I think a more "sustainable" option should be found so signs can last and look good for longer.

2011 – nice new signs – https://goo.gl/maps/PMrMc93M7bGcGcC46
2021 – beginning to peel – https://goo.gl/maps/LggwksdSP6id3ZTe6
3 months later – totally gone – https://goo.gl/maps/nbKVssiJL51vP6ek6

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 18, 2022, 09:17:34 AM
One thing that I feel needs to be addressed is the rate at which modern BGS degrade. Now this doesn't apply to every jurisdiction, but some definitely have issues with their signs lasting barely half a decade before the start of peeling. By the decade mark, several elements are peeling or worn out. ISTHA and ODOT (Oklahoma) seem to be big offenders in this department. I was on I-90 heading out to Rockford and I saw one of the TOLL banners on one of the signs flapping about in the wind. The sign is not even 10 years old.

Fading is also an issue in some cases, but that's not an issue exclusive to newer signs.

Meanwhile, classic button copy signs can last for several decades. This is getting into the engineering of the panels but what does a DOT like WisDOT do that ISTHA doesn't? I want to say it's because WisDOT still uses some form of demountable elements, whereas ISTHA just uses decals.

Either way, I think a more "sustainable" option should be found so signs can last and look good for longer.

On my trip last year, I saw a lot of peeling signs in Colorado and Missouri. Lettering and route markers were both peeling off guide signs along I-70. I guess that's a result of direct application vs. demountable copy.

Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
2011 – nice new signs – https://goo.gl/maps/PMrMc93M7bGcGcC46
2021 – beginning to peel – https://goo.gl/maps/LggwksdSP6id3ZTe6
3 months later – totally gone – https://goo.gl/maps/nbKVssiJL51vP6ek6

These signs, aside from the Interstate shields, actually still look pretty good. It's a relatively easy fix too: just fabricate two new shields and nail them over the old ones.

ISTHA signs on the other hand... (https://goo.gl/maps/qok39HpBAe6U9TuT7)

And it's not exclusive to BGS either.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 18, 2022, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2022, 10:39:52 AM
2011 – nice new signs – https://goo.gl/maps/PMrMc93M7bGcGcC46
2021 – beginning to peel – https://goo.gl/maps/LggwksdSP6id3ZTe6
3 months later – totally gone – https://goo.gl/maps/nbKVssiJL51vP6ek6

These signs, aside from the Interstate shields, actually still look pretty good. It's a relatively easy fix too: just fabricate two new shields and nail them over the old ones.

They were recently fixed, complete with black backgrounds for many of the US Route shields.

Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2022, 10:30:14 AM

Quote from: Ned Weasel on October 16, 2022, 10:36:09 AM
It still shows up sometimes, but not consistently, like here, where old-school NJDOT decided to make another Kansas cameo: https://goo.gl/maps/GgfM3MSJe3KpTgTj6 . 

Multiple signs at that interchange recently got the New Jersey treatment.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3926871,-97.5739165,3a,42.9y,354.94h,100.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shxH84Nlqf7jix9WQNAMTaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So close!  Button copy legend, but non-button copy shields.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4848/32490841148_0142b16656_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Rv747m)

I think they should. Button copy lasts eons compared to retroreflective sheeting. If CalTrans just washed them every once in a while and could replace the missing buttons, they could waste even longer.