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PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings

Started by BrianP, August 04, 2015, 10:43:56 AM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Lancaster, if not avoiding tolls, I'd probably recommend the PA Turnpike -> I-76 E -> I-476 S -> I-95 S to the Commodore Barry.

AGAIN...the weekend in question, I-76 will be closed; I-476 is the Detour Route.

Ooof...yeah, scratch that.  Then...US 322 E -> PA 10 S -> PA 41...all 2 lane roads but are relatively rural.

Rural and mostly straight, but very busy.  PA 41 is a major trucking route into Delaware and towards 95.   And enjoy the smell of the mushrooms as you get close to Avondale!



jpi

Again thanks everyone, glad this has turned into a lively discusion! :-P Some of you already know this but I grew up in nearby York County and my parents used to take 30-41-95-295-40 route to south Jersey beaches alot. It has been many years since I took 741 so I may consider that for something different. I may consider the Comm. Barry Bridge for the drive back Monday evening.
Jason Ilyes
JPI
Lebanon, TN
Home Of The Barrel

Duke87

Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Lancaster, if not avoiding tolls, I'd probably recommend the PA Turnpike -> I-76 E -> I-476 S -> I-95 S to the Commodore Barry.

AGAIN...the weekend in question, I-76 will be closed; I-476 is the Detour Route.

Ooof...yeah, scratch that.  Then...US 322 E -> PA 10 S -> PA 41...all 2 lane roads but are relatively rural.

According to official reports 76 will be open eastbound as far as 476, so if one needs to get from the Turnpike to the Barry Bridge that route will be open.

But coming from York 30-41-1-322 would be shorter and faster even with 30 east of Lancaster being sluggish.

If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Duke87 on September 09, 2015, 10:13:01 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Lancaster, if not avoiding tolls, I'd probably recommend the PA Turnpike -> I-76 E -> I-476 S -> I-95 S to the Commodore Barry.

AGAIN...the weekend in question, I-76 will be closed; I-476 is the Detour Route.

Ooof...yeah, scratch that.  Then...US 322 E -> PA 10 S -> PA 41...all 2 lane roads but are relatively rural.

According to official reports 76 will be open eastbound as far as 476, so if one needs to get from the Turnpike to the Barry Bridge that route will be open.



Exactly. The problem is, the Schuylkill is normally 2 lanes per direction, and congested. The Blue Route starts out with 3 lanes, then narrows down to 2, and is often congested.

Remove one of those highways and force everyone onto the other is a recipe for a parking lot with more parked cars than the King of Prussia mall on Black Friday!

So while technically you can go 76-476-95-322, I wouldn't recommend it!

bzakharin

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 11:05:36 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 09, 2015, 10:13:01 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Lancaster, if not avoiding tolls, I'd probably recommend the PA Turnpike -> I-76 E -> I-476 S -> I-95 S to the Commodore Barry.

AGAIN...the weekend in question, I-76 will be closed; I-476 is the Detour Route.

Ooof...yeah, scratch that.  Then...US 322 E -> PA 10 S -> PA 41...all 2 lane roads but are relatively rural.

According to official reports 76 will be open eastbound as far as 476, so if one needs to get from the Turnpike to the Barry Bridge that route will be open.



Exactly. The problem is, the Schuylkill is normally 2 lanes per direction, and congested. The Blue Route starts out with 3 lanes, then narrows down to 2, and is often congested.

Remove one of those highways and force everyone onto the other is a recipe for a parking lot with more parked cars than the King of Prussia mall on Black Friday!

So while technically you can go 76-476-95-322, I wouldn't recommend it!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 11:05:36 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 09, 2015, 10:13:01 PM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2015, 10:01:47 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on September 09, 2015, 09:18:14 AM
Lancaster, if not avoiding tolls, I'd probably recommend the PA Turnpike -> I-76 E -> I-476 S -> I-95 S to the Commodore Barry.

AGAIN...the weekend in question, I-76 will be closed; I-476 is the Detour Route.

Ooof...yeah, scratch that.  Then...US 322 E -> PA 10 S -> PA 41...all 2 lane roads but are relatively rural.

According to official reports 76 will be open eastbound as far as 476, so if one needs to get from the Turnpike to the Barry Bridge that route will be open.



Exactly. The problem is, the Schuylkill is normally 2 lanes per direction, and congested. The Blue Route starts out with 3 lanes, then narrows down to 2, and is often congested.

Remove one of those highways and force everyone onto the other is a recipe for a parking lot with more parked cars than the King of Prussia mall on Black Friday!

So while technically you can go 76-476-95-322, I wouldn't recommend it!
According to page 4 of this: http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2015/pdf/papalpressconference.pdf
they want you out of South Jersey and the Philly Area if at all possible, so according to that, you'd have to go all the way up to I-78 and down the Parkway (or take the Cape May - Lewis Ferry) to avoid problems

Chris19001

I'd recommend as an alternative just US-30 east to US-202 South to I-95 South, to I-295 North/US40 East (Delaware Memorial Bridge)
Its mostly expressways, and it will be busy, but there aren't any real wildcards thrown in there.  I think the Barry could be pretty busy that weekend..

PHLBOS

Quote from: Chris19001 on September 10, 2015, 10:16:39 AM
I'd recommend as an alternative just US-30 east to US-202 South to I-95 South, to I-295 North/US40 East (Delaware Memorial Bridge)
Its mostly expressways, and it will be busy, but there aren't any real wildcards thrown in there.  I think the Barry could be pretty busy that weekend..
Portions of US 30 and US 202, particularly the non-expressway segments, are crowded enough on weekends in general.  I would not recommend using either road for that particular weekend.

In short, avoid southeastern PA for that weekend as much as possible.  Jpi's planned 30 (or 741) -41-95-295-40 routing does just that.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

SteveG1988

Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

SteveG1988

The toll hikes on the Burlington County Bridge Comission spans went into effect.

Car Rate:
$3.00 Ezpass
$4.00 Cash
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

jeffandnicole

Emergency Construction on the Delaware Memorial Bridge, Delaware-bound, closes 3 out of 4 lanes.  All traffic is forced into the right-most southbound lane.  This is all due to emergency work on suspender support ropes, where workers found 3 close to each other that needed to be replaced pronto.

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/traffic/2016/04/19/3-southbound-lanes-delaware-memorial-bridge-closed/83247874/

http://www.nj.com/salem/index.ssf/2016/04/headed_south_delaware_memorial_bridge_work_causing.html

Traffic cams for the DRBA: http://www.drba.net/DelawareMemorialBridge/DRBALiveTrafficCameras.aspx

MASTERNC

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 20, 2016, 08:16:33 AM
Emergency Construction on the Delaware Memorial Bridge, Delaware-bound, closes 3 out of 4 lanes.  All traffic is forced into the right-most southbound lane.  This is all due to emergency work on suspender support ropes, where workers found 3 close to each other that needed to be replaced pronto.

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/traffic/2016/04/19/3-southbound-lanes-delaware-memorial-bridge-closed/83247874/

http://www.nj.com/salem/index.ssf/2016/04/headed_south_delaware_memorial_bridge_work_causing.html

Traffic cams for the DRBA: http://www.drba.net/DelawareMemorialBridge/DRBALiveTrafficCameras.aspx


Looks like only one lane is closed now.  Guess they're making quick work of the repairs.

roadman65

Don't they do the crossover anymore?  Like making the other span two way?  Why make one single lane when they can have two for each way?  They do have the overhead signals even though they have no zipper barriers, or does now the FHWA not allow undivided freeways anymore?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

74/171FAN

Quote from: roadman65 on April 24, 2016, 08:02:01 PM
Don't they do the crossover anymore?  Like making the other span two way?  Why make one single lane when they can have two for each way?  They do have the overhead signals even though they have no zipper barriers, or does now the FHWA not allow undivided freeways anymore?
PennDOT just put in "contraflow gates" to allow for two-lane traffic on the US 22/US 322 freeway northwest of Harrisburg in case an accident or whatsoever closes on side of the road in preparation for the US 11/US 15 closure starting next weekend. 
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: roadman65 on April 24, 2016, 08:02:01 PM
Don't they do the crossover anymore?  Like making the other span two way?  Why make one single lane when they can have two for each way?  They do have the overhead signals even though they have no zipper barriers, or does now the FHWA not allow undivided freeways anymore?

It's all different now.

Here's a GSV of the crossover.  Note the barrier thru what used to be the 2 lanes.  It appears it's not permanent so it could be moved if necessary, but there's no lane markings or anything.  https://goo.gl/maps/teCG8XQ2nyv

Here's the bridge going into NJ, looking back towards DE.  Note the absence of the lane control signals.  They took them out a long time ago, which means they have no plans to using the bridges for temporary 2 way traffic: https://goo.gl/maps/NB1zoTqAHTo  There are lane controls on the sign supports at the base of each bridge, but that's it (and they're, of course, only red in color.  In fact, a closeup view appears that they are standard traffic lights, rather than arrows): https://goo.gl/maps/iN9ZiWsqoWD2

They commonly do construction during the week on these bridges, and you can expect 1 lane to be closed each way fairly frequently.  If that was the case here (I think it was), all 4 lanes weren't available anyway.

There's also something to be said about making a bad situation worse.   As it was in this situation, DE bound traffic had to suffer thru some massive delays, but there were options that they started publicizing as best as possible: Take the Comm. Barry.  Take the Walt Whitman, etc. 

But...there were no delays NJ-bound.  It was known to be a temporary situation; 3 days at the most (turned out to be fewer than 2 full days).  Do you reduce traffic to 2 lanes each way, congesting traffic in both directions?  What type of barriers would be used, and how long does it take to set up 2 way traffic?  It would be a very unusual setup for the bridge, meaning traffic will be moving even slower than normal.  And those crossover jersey barriers would need to be moved.  Since the era of EZ Pass, contra-flow bridge traffic has never been done, and thus there is no signage prior to the toll plaza to inform motorists of the EZ Pass/Cash lanes. 

If one bridge had to be completely shut down for a long period of time, this stuff can be handled.  For an emergency situation that was projected to last 72 hours as the most, it wasn't necessary.

BrianP

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Delaware-Memorial-Bridge-Lane-Closure-Wires-382074211.html

Another closure for DE bound traffic. At least this time it's only two lanes.

QuoteTwo Delaware-bound lanes of the bridge that connects the First State with New Jersey will remain closed until 8 p.m., said the bridge.

The closure will allow crews to replace wire ropes that connect the bridge deck with the main suspension cable, said the bridge on its Twitter feed.
Wow! A bridge that can talk and tweet. 


ixnay

Quote from: BrianP on June 07, 2016, 09:43:49 AM
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Delaware-Memorial-Bridge-Lane-Closure-Wires-382074211.html

Another closure for DE bound traffic. At least this time it's only two lanes.

QuoteTwo Delaware-bound lanes of the bridge that connects the First State with New Jersey will remain closed until 8 p.m., said the bridge.

The closure will allow crews to replace wire ropes that connect the bridge deck with the main suspension cable, said the bridge on its Twitter feed.
Wow! A bridge that can talk and tweet.

Took the words right out of my mouth!

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

BrianP

Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.

And it still isn't known when it will open.
QuoteBecause of that, there is no target date to reopen the bridge to traffic.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/01/9m_prep_work_to_fix_closed_delaware_river_bridge_begins.html

Although asking for directions does avoid using the closed bridge.  So I guess they skipped removing the bridge from the map.  Maybe because the bridge would still be there in the aerial map. 

Aside: I don't recall the NJ Turnpike extension that leads to this bridge being called the Pearl Harbor extension. 

odditude

Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.
if you have traffic enabled, it shows the bridge as closed.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.

And it still isn't known when it will open.
QuoteBecause of that, there is no target date to reopen the bridge to traffic.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/01/9m_prep_work_to_fix_closed_delaware_river_bridge_begins.html

Although asking for directions does avoid using the closed bridge.  So I guess they skipped removing the bridge from the map.  Maybe because the bridge would still be there in the aerial map. 

Aside: I don't recall the NJ Turnpike extension that leads to this bridge being called the Pearl Harbor extension. 

The Turnpike renamed it that probably over a decade ago...maybe even 2 decades ago. They tend to be the only one that uses the name...many others simply say the Turnpike extension.

Alps

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.

And it still isn't known when it will open.
QuoteBecause of that, there is no target date to reopen the bridge to traffic.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/01/9m_prep_work_to_fix_closed_delaware_river_bridge_begins.html

Although asking for directions does avoid using the closed bridge.  So I guess they skipped removing the bridge from the map.  Maybe because the bridge would still be there in the aerial map. 

Aside: I don't recall the NJ Turnpike extension that leads to this bridge being called the Pearl Harbor extension. 

The Turnpike renamed it that probably over a decade ago...maybe even 2 decades ago. They tend to be the only one that uses the name...many others simply say the Turnpike extension.
Pearl Harbor still begins with P, for Pennsylvania. Newark Bay they had to add Hudson County on the end to preserve the N.

bzakharin

Quote from: Alps on February 03, 2017, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.

And it still isn't known when it will open.
QuoteBecause of that, there is no target date to reopen the bridge to traffic.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/01/9m_prep_work_to_fix_closed_delaware_river_bridge_begins.html

Although asking for directions does avoid using the closed bridge.  So I guess they skipped removing the bridge from the map.  Maybe because the bridge would still be there in the aerial map. 

Aside: I don't recall the NJ Turnpike extension that leads to this bridge being called the Pearl Harbor extension. 

The Turnpike renamed it that probably over a decade ago...maybe even 2 decades ago. They tend to be the only one that uses the name...many others simply say the Turnpike extension.
Pearl Harbor still begins with P, for Pennsylvania. Newark Bay they had to add Hudson County on the end to preserve the N.
What difference does it make whether or not it begins with a P? It's not like anyone calls it the P extension. At any rate, none of these names appear on any (permanent) signage. It's just Exit 6 from the mainline and NJ Turnpike from PA and US 130. Ditto for I-78, just exits 14A-B-C.

Alps

Quote from: bzakharin on February 05, 2017, 12:20:31 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 03, 2017, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 03, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Hmmm I realized that Google hasn't removed the Turnpike bridge over the Delaware river from their maps due to it being closed.  They removed the I-495 bridge in Delaware when that was closed.

And it still isn't known when it will open.
QuoteBecause of that, there is no target date to reopen the bridge to traffic.
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2017/01/9m_prep_work_to_fix_closed_delaware_river_bridge_begins.html

Although asking for directions does avoid using the closed bridge.  So I guess they skipped removing the bridge from the map.  Maybe because the bridge would still be there in the aerial map. 

Aside: I don't recall the NJ Turnpike extension that leads to this bridge being called the Pearl Harbor extension. 

The Turnpike renamed it that probably over a decade ago...maybe even 2 decades ago. They tend to be the only one that uses the name...many others simply say the Turnpike extension.
Pearl Harbor still begins with P, for Pennsylvania. Newark Bay they had to add Hudson County on the end to preserve the N.
What difference does it make whether or not it begins with a P? It's not like anyone calls it the P extension. At any rate, none of these names appear on any (permanent) signage. It's just Exit 6 from the mainline and NJ Turnpike from PA and US 130. Ditto for I-78, just exits 14A-B-C.
Internal referencing for everything (bridges and mile markers especially). Look at the mile markers and you'll see P1.2 or N6.8. The bridge that just failed is called "P0.0" after the milepost. I know, it's trivial to change the letter, but important to them to maintain continuity.

jeffandnicole

NJ.com published a story showing the amount of revenue and number of crossings (from NJ) each bridge (or agency) had in 2016.

http://www.nj.com/burlington/index.ssf/2017/10/how_much_tolls_get_paid_on_each_bridge_ranked.html#incart_river_home

Based on the figures provided, I broke the figures down to show the average fare per crossing.  Note: Unless otherwise mentioned, the crossings do have an EZ Pass savings plan available for frequent customers.

Delaware Memorial Bridge: $103.8m in revenue, 18m crossings; average $5.79 toll per crossing ($4 for cars)
Commodore Barry Bridge: $55.7m, 7.3m crossings, $7.62/crossing ($5 for cars)
Walt Whitman Bridge: $124.4m, 19.9m crossings, $6.24/crossing ($5 for cars)
Ben Franklin Bridge: $101.9m 18.3m crossings, $5.55/crossing ($5 for cars)
Betsy Ross Bridge: $40.4m, 6.2m crossings, $6.54/crossing ($5 for cars)
Burlington Bristol/Tacony Palmyra Bridges (total): $51.2m, 13.5m crossings, $3.79/crossing ($3 EZ Pass, $4 Cash for cars)



froggie

Those numbers suggest that the Commodore Barry Bridge has a high level of trucks as a percentage of bridge traffic, and the Burlington-Briston and Tacony-Palmyra have very low truck volumes.



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