Kickapoo Turnpike

[Bobby5280]

On the other hand, the way that they constructed the junction of the north end of the Kickapoo Turnpike suggests that they had no future plans to extend it further north.

That trumpet interchange would not be all that difficult to modify into a standard cloverleaf interchange if the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North of I-44. IMHO, the Kickapoo Turnpike really needs to do just that. It needs to connect directly to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro to function as an effective outer loop bypass. The current configuration is really only going to be of value to people who live East of OKC between I-44 and I-40. I have no intention of using it on road trips from Lawton to Tulsa and beyond. Not in that arrangement. If the Kickapoo Turnpike extended Southward to Norman AND connected to the existing H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension then it would be a lot more valuable as a regional bypass of OKC.

I'm really dissatisfied with the lack of planning in central Oklahoma. OKC was one of the fastest growing areas in the country per the 2020 census and there is zero planning for any new freeway or even expressway facilities in areas that will clearly need them in the coming decades. ROW needs to at least be acquired before the land is developed.

I've obviously been griping about this very thing for many years. Generally speaking, Oklahoma has flat out sucked at highway corridor planning for at least the last 20-30 years. Much of what we see is an embarrassing parade of half-@$$ half-measures. The OKC metro has multiple examples on full exhibit. OTA built the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension only partially from I-44 toward I-35 rather than following the f*** through. Hell, it's a miracle the Kickapoo Turnpike actually spans all the way from I-44 down to I-40. I'm kind of surprised it didn't end at NE-23rd Street (US-62). That would have been par for the course with OTA.

Then we have the dopey (and really curvy) Kilpatrick Turnpike extension from I-40 to Airport Road. The warped interchange design with I-40 and the curvy routing around various blockade housing developments pretty much shows the long term planners are asleep and other decision makers are only winging it. Now they're intending to sign it as I-240 to make it look like they did that $#!+ on purpose. OTA and ODOT missed a great opportunity back in the late 1990's to set up what could have been a Yukon to Norman Southern half of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. In typical Oklahoma style the planners zoned out and let developers eat up all the potential ROW along South Sara Road.

[Plutonic Panda]

They need to bite the bullet and extend the freeway where it curves to connect to SH-152 and extend it south as a fully controlled access facility to SH-4. Run it through the neighborhood at Mesa Terrace street. Run it between the Lowe's and OK national guard center. Boom. About a dozen homes and a few commercial properties. Acquisitions like this are made many times in other states and this is a common sense link. It would really allow people to bypass I-44 in OKC.

https://goo.gl/maps/yydKkWLuu3tYdPwB8

[bugo]

What's the deal with the Quanah Parker expressway? Was it built as a temporary routing of US 62? When it was built were the plans to remove US 62 from it already in place? I also noticed that at one time, US 62 followed the expressway into town from the west, went southeast on Quanah Parker, then due north on 52nd, then east on Rogers all the way to 44. It must have been a huge mess when you had to use 52nd to connect from QP to Rogers. When was the connector from the US 62 rural expressway/QP to Rogers Lane just west of 82nd Street built? It looks like this one little stretch of highway could have had a strong impact on lessening travel time and congestion through this area.

*Disclaimer: I have never been to Lawton, so I'm solely going off of the maps I have on my hard drive.

[bugo]

It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.

What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.

[bugo]

I-35 bridges in northern Oklahoma, I-44 roller coaster lanes in southern Oklahoma:  two of my least favorite things about driving to Mexico.

Which bridges in particular on 35?  The major bridges across the rivers have all been replaced in the last 10 years (except the Cimarron, which isn't bad). The OK33 bridge is scheduled to be replaced this year along with an interchange rebuild. The only bad one that comes immediately to mid is at Waterloo Road. It too is scheduled to be replaced in the new 2 years.
What are roller coaster lanes?

I don't remember which bridges anymore, because they're better now.  Back around 2010-2011, it seemed like every other one was under construction.  Of course, that matches your timeline perfectly.
Roller coaster lanes:  there's a stretch of I-44 where the roadbed is... umm, wavy, I guess.  I can never remember if its south of or north of Lawton.  With a heavy-laden vehicle, its brutal.  Even though the pavement is perfectly smooth, my suspension still bottoms out every few dashes of the white line.  I think its worse northbound than southbound.

There are three major highway bridges in the Tulsa metro that are "roller coaster" spans: I-244/US 75 over the Arkansas River, the Creek Turnpike over the Arkansas River and the Creek Turnpike over Haikey Creek. None of these bridges are old. The Creek Turnpike bridge over the Arkansas River was built in 1991, the Creek Turnpike bridge over Haikey Creek was built in 2000, and the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas River was built in 2012/2014. I am not an engineer, but my assumption is that the piers were not set in bedrock, and were allowed to settle, causing the road deck to become deformed, resulting in the roller coaster effect. This is a direct result of Oklahoma's slavish insistence on awarding contracts to the lowest bidder, even if the state has had issues with that bidder in the past. They keep hiring them over and over. Many contractors in Oklahoma are crooked and shady, and they do shoddy work on purpose because it saves them money and because they can get away with it. I say if a company builds something that is as much of a failure as these three bridges are, they should be banned from doing ODOT/OTA projects for 10 years (or another appropriate amount of time) and new contracts should be written in a way that holds contractors liable when they do shoddy work. The other big issue is that Oklahomans are cheap and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes. They're the first to bitch and moan when a pothole destroys their engine*, but when push comes to shove, they vote against tax increases that would have been used for road construction and maintenance, continuing the abusive cycle. Hopefully, when the boomers get too old to vote, the younger generations will start demanding quality roads, and will be willing to pay for them. That's the only way we get better roads.

*That actually happened to my friend who lives in Fayetteville. He came to Tulsa to visit, and when he was here he hit a huge pothole, which ripped a hole in his oil pan, causing all of the oil to come out and ruining the engine. He had to get a completely new engine. All because of some Okie rednecks who are too cheap to pay taxes. Oklahoma voters expect something from nothing, and they refuse to raise taxes, even when it is essential to bring in more revenue.

[sprjus4]

It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.

What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.

Which section of US-65? The majority of it looks like standard 4 lane divided highway with a grassy median. Are you referring to the 5 lane sections near towns?

[bugo]

The Kick A Poo Turnpike is being sold by ODOT as a "shortcut" between downtown Tulsa and downtown Oklahoma City (the "shortcut" is several miles longer than just staying on I-44). This is nonsense, because unless you were going to certain parts of the southeastern part of the Oklahoma City metro, it would be shorter and faster just to stay on I-44. Even Tinker AFB is too far west for the Kick A Poo to be beneficial for Tinker-Tulsa traffic. It would be shorter to take I-44 west to I-35 south to I-40 east. That part of OKC isn't the most happening part of the metro, and there isn't a whole lot out there. As the turnpike stands as built today, it was a huge waste of money and isn't very beneficial. If it is extended north to meet I-35 northeast of Guthrie and to meet I-44 somewhere around Chickasha, it will be very useful and hugely beneficial. But knowing Oklahoma, this will be the only part of the Kick A Poo Turnpike that will ever be built, and it will forever be completely worthless.

[bugo]

What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.

Which section of US-65? The majority of it looks like standard 4 lane divided highway with a grassy median. Are you referring to the 5 lane sections near towns?

Here's a section, northwest of Moscow:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1656778,-91.8454044,3a,75y,350.36h,90.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdXhE7PY77st57rQxZfaX3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is east of Dermott:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5191702,-91.3671415,3a,75y,5.56h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8TX90WGDBKP5WNdYog-CzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Near the Boeuf River:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.459751,-91.3377203,3a,75y,142.09h,90.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEZZK8e9pPjfjpsQUtgbRjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Near Bayou Macon:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.409573,-91.3171417,3a,75y,147.46h,79.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6tSnHJPoB3yuNPk593xhgg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This is just a little bit to the south:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3957902,-91.31258,3a,75y,311.57h,85.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3edW6N51Yekowon9So9MWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A little further south:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3610025,-91.297662,3a,75y,12.04h,101.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swQC3Z0eZZTMEO0QEQ87Vug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I just noticed that they all seem to be near bodies of water. I wonder if that has anything to do with why they were built this way. Of course, it's possible they were designed this way from the start and were never "Arkansas Freeways".

[Bobby5280]

What's the deal with the Quanah Parker expressway? Was it built as a temporary routing of US 62? When it was built were the plans to remove US 62 from it already in place? I also noticed that at one time, US 62 followed the expressway into town from the west, went southeast on Quanah Parker, then due north on 52nd, then east on Rogers all the way to 44. It must have been a huge mess when you had to use 52nd to connect from QP to Rogers. When was the connector from the US 62 rural expressway/QP to Rogers Lane just west of 82nd Street built? It looks like this one little stretch of highway could have had a strong impact on lessening travel time and congestion through this area.

IIRC, Quanah Parker Trailway was built from the West end of Lawton out to Cache back in the late 1970's or near 1980. What we call "Old Cache Road" was the previous US-62 alignment. When I first moved to Lawton US-62 was routed on Cache Road thru the middle of Lawton all the way to I-44. I can't remember exactly off hand when the US-62 designation was shifted from Cache Road to Rogers Lane; I think it was in the late 1990's.

Over 40 years ago I think there were serious intentions to build a freeway through the middle of Lawton. ODOT just couldn't get very far with the effort. The Quanah Parker freeway ends at 82nd Street. From there to the "Y" split with Cache Road it's a 4-lane divided expressway with a slower speed limit. A stretch of Gore Blvd just North of Downtown Lawton is a wide divided street with a huge median that has served as green space for decades. And then Rogers Lane is a freaking joke of a fake freeway.

In regard to the connector between the Rogers Lane and Quanah Parker Trailway, that was built back around 2003. There is some planning work going on to modify that interchange so the connector spans down to meet Goodyear Blvd. I think if the City of Lawton and ODOT does that it will result in a lot more truck traffic getting dumped onto Rogers Lane. Then the need will be even more desperate to convert that glorified street into an Interstate quality freeway.

[kphoger]

The Kick A Poo Turnpike is being sold by ODOT as a "shortcut" between downtown Tulsa and downtown Oklahoma City (the "shortcut" is several miles longer than just staying on I-44). This is nonsense, because unless you were going to certain parts of the southeastern part of the Oklahoma City metro, it would be shorter and faster just to stay on I-44. Even Tinker AFB is too far west for the Kick A Poo to be beneficial for Tinker-Tulsa traffic. It would be shorter to take I-44 west to I-35 south to I-40 east. That part of OKC isn't the most happening part of the metro, and there isn't a whole lot out there. As the turnpike stands as built today, it was a huge waste of money and isn't very beneficial. If it is extended north to meet I-35 northeast of Guthrie and to meet I-44 somewhere around Chickasha, it will be very useful and hugely beneficial. But knowing Oklahoma, this will be the only part of the Kick A Poo Turnpike that will ever be built, and it will forever be completely worthless.

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

[Scott5114]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

[Plutonic Panda]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

The section between SH-74 and Western will be rebuilt and expanded per OkDOTs long range plans.

[kphoger]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44.  Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44.  I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west of Bethany.

Actually, the next time I make the drive, I'm considering taking the Kilpatrick over to OK-74 and then down.

[US 89]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

Worse than even the Tinker Diagonal part of 40?

[Scott5114]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44.  Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44.  I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west of Bethany.

Actually, the next time I make the drive, I'm considering taking the Kilpatrick over to OK-74 and then down.

You wouldn't know it from looking, but the portion of I-44 between I-40 and OK-74 actually carries the highest AADT of any road in Oklahoma. In any event, if you're not averse to tolls, the Kilpatrick now connects straight through to OK-152, which will get you to I-44 right by the airport. By the time you make the drive next, it may even be signed as I-240.

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

Worse than even the Tinker Diagonal part of 40?

You know, I drive that so infrequently (if I'm headed east it's easier to take I-240 to I-40 and bypass that stretch of I-40) that I completely forgot how much it sucks. I still think it's probably not quite as bad as the two I mentioned, though (part of that stretch of I-35 is four lanes with a grass+cable median, and I-240 could be used to illustrate "weaving" in a traffic engineering textbook).

[kphoger]

You wouldn't know it from looking, but the portion of I-44 between I-40 and OK-74 actually carries the highest AADT of any road in Oklahoma. In any event, if you're not averse to tolls, the Kilpatrick now connects straight through to OK-152, which will get you to I-44 right by the airport. By the time you make the drive next, it may even be signed as I-240.

Oh, I believe it.  I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk.  But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour.  Like, twelve extra miles.  I'm not so sure that's worth it.  For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).

[rte66man]

You'd have to pay me to drive I-44 through central OKC again...

I-44 sucks, but I don't consider it the worst freeway in OKC (that honor goes to either I-35 between I-40 and I-44, or the west half of I-240).

I actually prefer that portion of I-35 over I-44.  Whenever I drive between Wichita and Mexico (via Lawton), I always use I-40 to get between I-35 and I-44.  I can't stand that stretch of I-44 west east of Bethany.

FTFY

Of all the possible routes, the one you mentioned going east on the Kilpatrick to Hefner Parkway is the best when you are coming thru on a weekend. You should try the Kilpatrick all the way back to I44 by the airport just once.

[Plutonic Panda]

Really the question should be what freeways are nice in OKC LOL. I jest a bit. In regards to what your standards are, adequate capacity, pavement quality, aesthetic features, safety features(shoulders, lane widths, aux lanes, etc), I'd say it's a toss up though OKC has some of the ugliest freeways. Landscaping seems to be a complete afterthought.

[Scott5114]

I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality. I don't really care too much about landscaping on urban freeways. If I want to slow down and look at the trees, surface roads are there for that. I-35 is slow-ish at rush hour but it flows well every other time.

[Bobby5280]

Oh, I believe it.  I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk.  But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour.  Like, twelve extra miles.  I'm not so sure that's worth it.  For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).

If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive. This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.

I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality.

Both I-40 in Downtown and I-35 to the South of I-40 were re-built relatively recently.

[rte66man]

Oh, I believe it.  I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk.  But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour.  Like, twelve extra miles.  I'm not so sure that's worth it.  For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).

If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive. This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.

I-40 through downtown, I-35 south of I-40, and I-235 are all perfectly fine with me in terms of safety and pavement quality.

Both I-40 in Downtown and I-35 to the South of I-40 were re-built relatively recently.

I40 was finished in the last 5 years while it's been nearly 30 years since I35 was completely redone. They started at the Dallas Junction around 1983 and worked south from there. That is why the stretch from SE 15th to Grans already needs to be resurfaced.

[bwana39]

It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.

What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.

No on the INT and some other roads, there is literally a hump of grass about 18" tall that form the barrier between the lanes.  Some of them have had cables placed on top of the humps. some of them are just there.

[Scott5114]

It took freaking forever for OTA to remove the dangerous, nothing grass median and replace it with flat concrete and a cable barrier. When I drive on that segment of turnpike it feels like I'm driving on an ordinary 5-lane street. The portion where the cheap cable barrier is positioned could double as a center left turn lane.

What you are describing, a 5 lane undivided rural highway with a center turning lane, is what I have dubbed the "Arkansas Freeway". The term has caught on to a modest degree, but in my opinion, it fits perfectly. Most rural 4 laning projects in Arkansas use this setup in lieu of a proper 4 lane divided highway. These roads are less expensive to build, but they are also less safe. There are stretches of US 65 south of Pine Bluff that were originally built as Arkansas Freeways, but later a Jersey barrier was installed along the center turning lane, turning the 5 laner into a ghetto 4 lane divided highway. I guess they were having too many accidents on the 5 lane sections.

No on the INT and some other roads, there is literally a hump of grass about 18" tall that form the barrier between the lanes.  Some of them have had cables placed on top of the humps. some of them are just there.

I just clinched the INT yesterday. All of the cable barriers were installed on flat concrete. There was a portion north of McAlester where it looked like they were removing the grassy hump, bringing the dirt down flush with the pavement, in order to extend the barrier.

[Bobby5280]

I40 was finished in the last 5 years while it's been nearly 30 years since I35 was completely redone.

I-35 from Downtown OKC down to the Crossroads Mall area (I-40 down to I-240) was re-built in the early 2000's. I-35 going North of I-40 up to the duplex with I-44 is really old and badly in need of improvement.

[SoonerCowboy]

Oh, I believe it.  I've looked at the traffic overlay on Google Maps enough to know that it's not necessarily a cakewalk.  But taking the Kilpatrick all the way to 152 looks like a really long-derrière detour.  Like, twelve extra miles.  I'm not so sure that's worth it.  For what it's worth, southbound I'm always going through OKC Saturday at mid-morning (like 9 am), and northbound I'm always doing so either on Saturday or Sunday in late afternoon (like 4 pm).

If I used the Kilpatrick Turnpike to drive from Edmond to Lawton I would get off the turnpike just South of I-40 at the Sara Road exit and take Sara Road straight South thru Mustang. The road turns into OK-4 and meets up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension. There are three traffic signals along the way (and at least one or two 4-way stop sign intersections). It's not too bad a drive. This is really where the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension should have been built.

I totally agree Bobby, this should have been the route of the Kilpatrick extension (and maybe still could happen). My last trip to Lawton, this is the route that I took, since I had to pick up my father (he lives over by the Hobby Lobby headquarters). It sure was nice to avoid all that construction on that part of I-44.