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Author Topic: East Kellog Construction- Wichita  (Read 15564 times)

Stephane Dumas

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2020, 07:55:09 AM »


Jumping the gun? 

I think they did more than that. They jumped the gun by nuking the fridge, lol. :)
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2020, 02:25:23 PM »

They weren't open yet when I drove by on Saturday.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2021, 02:53:40 PM »


Kansas's first cashless exit opened today at the Kellog interchange!  :D :clap:
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2021, 03:40:14 PM »

"it's better for the environment"
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2021, 06:02:45 PM »

Kansas's first cashless exit opened today at the Kellog interchange!  :D :clap:

Nice, but it still doesn't explain how much they charge people who use the exit without a K-TAG, nor how they know to charge said amount (remember, it's a ticket-based system, where tolls are based on entry point).

By the way, this page still doesn't fully explain it: https://www.ksturnpike.com/cashless-tolling , but the phrase "search for their trip using their license plate" implies something I imagined a long time ago--that a cashless ticket-style toll system can only work for people without a transponder if the system records license plate information at both exit and entry point.  Therefore, the KTA would have had to install cameras at every single entry ticket dispenser to record all of that license plate data just for what is so far only a single exit.  Otherwise, it would have to be either a flat rate or an honor system, and in the latter case, how safely can they assume people won't list their entry point as Interchange 50 or 57 when they entered at Plaza 4 or 236 instead?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 06:14:36 PM by stridentweasel »
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kphoger

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2021, 06:13:03 PM »

Nice, but it still doesn't explain how much they charge people who use the exit without a K-TAG, nor how they know to charge said amount (remember, it's a ticket-based system, where tolls are based on entry point).

It's the cash rate, and it looks like they just trust you to be honest about which entry point you used.   :crazy:

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2021, 06:32:14 PM »

It's the cash rate, and it looks like they just trust you to be honest about which entry point you used.   :crazy:

Thanks!  I didn't find that video earlier.

"Select your entry point manually."  Wow, what a cutting-edge feature!  I sure hope the KTA bean-counters used an advanced probability model to determine the revenue lost from people taking the 164-mile discount.  That's the term for it now.  Why 164?  Well, in reality, you could get on at Interchange 53(B) and get right off at Exit 53A.  With a K-TAG, that's 30 cents for a class-2 vehicle, and without, it's 50 cents, according to the toll calculator.  Now, what's the farthest entry point from Exit 53A?  The eastern entrance at Mile 217 (it used to be considered Plaza 236 for the full mileage of the Turnpike, but the calculator actually lists its number as 217).  So, 217 miles minus 53 miles equals 164 miles.  If you're honest about getting on at Mile 217 and you get off at Exit 53A without a K-Tag, you're supposed to pay $11.25.  But if honesty ain't your thing, what some people would consider a five-finger discount becomes a 164-mile discount, and you're paying $10.75 less.  I sure hope they've accounted for all those discounts ranging from anywhere between 50 cents and just shy of 11 dollars.  Oh, and remember they charge more for larger vehicles!  So the 164-mile discount would be $75.75 in the worst-case scenario (check the calculator for yourself).

***

Something else just occurred to me!  I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 08:36:21 PM by stridentweasel »
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kphoger

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2021, 07:05:25 PM »

Thanks!  I didn't find that video earlier.

It was just posted today.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2021, 08:43:41 PM »

Something else just occurred to me!  I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.

Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful—one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.

Likewise, someone misreporting their entry point would be guilty of toll evasion. It would be like saying Walmart advertising you can save money shopping there is misleading because you can save even more if you just steal from Target. After all, it's easy to save lots of money if you commit a crime.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2021, 09:48:46 PM »

Something else just occurred to me!  I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.

Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful—one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.

Likewise, someone misreporting their entry point would be guilty of toll evasion. It would be like saying Walmart advertising you can save money shopping there is misleading because you can save even more if you just steal from Target. After all, it's easy to save lots of money if you commit a crime.

Yeah.  You're probably right.

I just wish the KTA would ditch this screwy system and go with something that makes sense and isn't blatantly open to cheating.  How long should it really take to just go to mainline cashless gantries?  It's technology that they're already using at this point.  Maybe they just don't want to get rid of their vending machine-style self-pay machines just yet.
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J N Winkler

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PM »

Something else just occurred to me!  I'm not a lawyer, and I barely have any legal expertise whatsoever, but I wonder if K-TAG users now have grounds for a class-action lawsuit on the basis that non-tagholders can travel most of the Turnpike from east to west for next to nothing, albeit dishonestly, while tagholders still have to pay a significant toll based on mileage, when K-TAG is advertised as a way of saving money.

Not a lawyer, but it's doubtful—one would not expect to win a case saying that income tax violates the equal protection clause because someone with a business can avoid taxes by sending in a 1040 with fraudulent profit/loss statements, but you still have to pay because you get taxes withheld from your wages. The other guy would just be guilty of tax evasion.

A somewhat analogous situation is a toll agency deciding to give a certain group of commuters a discount, like the New York Thruway does for Grand Island residents with tolls on the bridges to and from the island.  This has actually been litigated and those who have objected to the discount plans on the basis of discrimination by residence have lost.  Apparently the courts deem it acceptable for a toll authority to act as a "market participant."  (I personally think toll authorities should be required to offer buy-in to commuter discounts without preference based on residence.)

In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion.  This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2021, 12:53:39 AM »

Thanks!  I didn't find that video earlier.

It was just posted today.

It won't affect me since I have a KTAG already, but it seems like if they know the exit point they should know the entry point too. I don't know why someone would have to go through an extra step to enter that info.
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Scott5114

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2021, 01:09:10 AM »

In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion.  This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).

The "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.

KTA could probably prevent the most egregious abuses simply by placing plate readers at mile 4, mile 127, and mile 217.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2021, 10:29:13 AM »


In any event, I would expect Exit 53A to have video surveillance, which limits the scope for toll evasion.  This said, it will be interesting to see whether KTA treats the 164-mile "discount" as error (customer is billed the difference in toll plus an administrative fee) or as a violation (customer must pay a fine and disgorge ill-gotten gains).

The "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.

KTA could probably prevent the most egregious abuses simply by placing plate readers at mile 4, mile 127, and mile 217.

Do they not already have them?  What's to prevent people from just using the K-Tag lanes without having a K-Tag, if there are no plate readers?
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2021, 12:41:02 PM »

Do they not already have them?  What's to prevent people from just using the K-Tag lanes without having a K-Tag, if there are no plate readers?

There are plate readers at exiting K-TAG lanes, to charge people a Violation Toll if they drive through without a K-TAG.  I don't know of any such mechanism existing at entrance K-TAG lanes, because that isn't a place where any payment is expected.
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J N Winkler

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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2021, 01:04:20 PM »

The "discount" that The Weasel notes is possible due to a lack of video surveillance at every other toll plaza. Get on at mile 217, get a paper ticket, exit at 53A, go online and fill out the form saying you got on at 53. If there is no plate reader at 217 to place the car there, there's no way the driver's claim can be disputed.

How recent is this information that there is surveillance only at every other toll plaza?  It's been a while since I was last on the Turnpike--not at all during the pandemic, and just two to four times a year from 2018-2019--but I recall that changes in toll automation and the associated equipment were very rapid over 2016-2017, to the extent that changes were noticeable over trips spaced just a few weeks apart.

The entrance at MP 217 that Stridentweasel is talking about is the new Eastern Terminal, which now has mainline ORT.  Leakage at a one-lane exit ramp is one thing; it would be lunacy not to have full video surveillance (including at ticket lanes) at a high-capacity entry point.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2021, 01:59:51 PM »

This kind of raises the question, however:

If they can readily implement the technology to record license plate data at entry points, then why do they even bother having people manually select their entry point when they pay their Exit 53A bill online?  And they could even take it a step further and get rid of tickets entirely, and just use license plate data to charge fees for people without K-TAGs.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2021, 02:21:49 PM »

And they could even take it a step further and get rid of tickets entirely, and just use license plate data to charge fees for people without K-TAGs.

That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information.  For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.

If they can readily implement the technology to record license plate data at entry points, then why do they even bother having people manually select their entry point when they pay their Exit 53A bill online?

I don't know.  Maybe they've calculated that the losses aren't worth the hassle.  Or maybe that technology is coming in the future but hasn't been implemented yet.

And this makes me wonder again:  If I take this trip on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me?  The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2021, 06:53:35 PM »

That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information.  For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.

But doesn't every AET system have the same problem?

Quote
And this makes me wonder again:  If I take this trip on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me?  The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.

I'm pretty sure it's technically different because, in the case of any trip where you exit at a K-TAG lane other than Exit 53A, you're charged a flat-rate Violation toll, listed here by exit number: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/July_1_2020_violation_rates.pdf (yours would be $20.50 if you're in a two-axle vehicle).
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2021, 10:21:39 AM »


That would only work for states with whose DMVs the KTA has an agreement to obtain drivers' personal information.  For all other states, they would have no way of billing the customer.

But doesn't every AET system have the same problem?

Yes, I suppose they all do—although the extent that it's an actual problem would vary by state, based on their interstate agreements.


Quote
And this makes me wonder again:  If I take this trip on the Turnpike without a K-Tag, but I use the K-Tag lane at both entry and exit, then how does the system know how much to charge me?  The new situation is really no different than that, if you think about it.

I'm pretty sure it's technically different because, in the case of any trip where you exit at a K-TAG lane other than Exit 53A, you're charged a flat-rate Violation toll, listed here by exit number: https://www.ksturnpike.com/assets/uploads/content-files/July_1_2020_violation_rates.pdf (yours would be $20.50 if you're in a two-axle vehicle).

Ah, thank you for clearing that up for me.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2022, 10:11:22 PM »

Has anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96?  https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )

I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation.  If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps.  Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this?  Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2022, 11:07:02 PM »

Has anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96?  https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )

I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation.  If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps.  Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this?  Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?

If you were using the Turnpike north, get off at Exit 50-Webb Road, or Exit 53 for US 54-400/K-96. Both will get you to the same route. Exit 50 requires using the Kellogg frontage road and Exit 53 requires backtracking to US 54/400.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2022, 11:11:19 PM »

Has anyone looked at the concept for the US 54/400/Kellogg Freeway expansion east of K-96?  https://ikewebstorage.blob.core.windows.net/eastkellogg/files/KDOT-EastKellogg-Handout.pdf (linked to from the home page: https://eastkellogg.ksdotike.org/ )

I'm rather confused by the concept map, because it looks like either (A) the movements from I-35/Kansas Turnpike and 127th Street East just south of Central Avenue, to eastbound US 54/400/Kellogg are missing, or (B) those movements involve a very bad weaving situation.  If you're trying to figure out what I'm talking about, just look at the ramps coming from southbound K-96 and think about all the movements that need to use those ramps.  Can anyone possibly enlighten me on this?  Have they just not figured it out yet, and is this basically just a napkin sketch?

There was a public meeting last May 26, but no information was presented in graphical form with more detail than the rendering in the link you give.  The meeting page has links to all of the display boards.  Someone (I think a KDOT representative) had an 11" x 17" plan sheet that he was talking about with people present, but it was not circulated for general viewing, and since I didn't get a good look at it, I can't be sure it wasn't a right-of-way map rather than a conceptual alignment plan.

In the renderings, it looks like they are using bright green to delineate the locations of new bridges, so the lack of it between Kellogg and the last K-96 exit would suggest they plan to remove the existing access from 127th Street to Kellogg instead of building ramp braids similar to those that allow access to West Street from the west via both Kellogg and I-235.  I wouldn't take that as gospel, however, because they also show the ramp from southbound K-96 to westbound Kellogg running on top of the current Turnpike alignment, which can't happen unless they relocate the Turnpike (not likely), realign the ramp, or build a bridge they don't show.

I would suggest asking them via the comment form what will happen with the accesses to and from 127th Street.

I actually had more trouble with what initially appeared to be redundant ramps along Kellogg just east of K-96.  I think they are a less-than-clear way of showing that frontage roads are planned to shift away from the mainline to give room for direct-access ramps.
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2022, 04:30:32 PM »

With the momentum of Kellogg Ave, the prospective governor wants to four-lane west and east.  https://hayspost.com/posts/e6f993b5-18b5-4554-8efe-ac1659aa76e5

For southeast Kansas, would this make more sense than twinning US 69 south of Pittsburg?
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Re: East Kellog Construction- Wichita
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2022, 09:36:39 PM »

the prospective governor

Cut the politics.
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