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Author Topic: Fake river boundaries  (Read 13570 times)

US 89

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2020, 03:45:35 PM »

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

New Mexico State Highway 456 crosses into Oklahoma at a bridge over a creek.  The state line is a parallel meridian and not the creek.

FTFY. The 103rd meridian west from Greenwich, to be exact - one of the few state boundary meridians from Greenwich (most are from Washington).

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2020, 04:01:37 PM »

This entire thread reminds me of a somewhat funny story from when I was a kid. We were driving back to Green Bay from my uncle's home near Peoria. My dad hated the Illinois Tollways and couldn't resist complaining about paying for roads to the booth attendants every time we didn't have exact change. When we stopped to pay at the South Beloit Toll Plaza on the Northwest Tollway, my dad said he'd be glad to be back in Wisconsin. The woman at the toll booth said, "No sir. There's four miles of Illinois freeway before you get to Wisconsin." My dad didn't say anything back (I'm sure his eyes rolled back as far as he could roll them), but after we drove off we all busted out laughing.
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Road Hog

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2020, 07:11:38 PM »

It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2020, 07:29:42 PM »

Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I’d wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they’re crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they’re on the bridge. They’re not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.

It doesn’t help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

The border at the Key Bridge from Rosslyn-Georgetown is better marked. There's a "Welcome to Washington DC" sign at the start of the Key Bridge, which is factually speaking where the line is (or at least close enough). You can see it here: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8998869,-77.0706958,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_RBSgT1gQ-0A195bfllLJA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2020, 02:15:47 AM »

No mention thus far of Carter Lake, Iowa.

If you’ve driven from the Omaha airport into downtown Omaha, you’ve probably driven through Carter Lake.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2020, 07:49:45 AM »

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.


I hadn’t looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it’s called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia’s part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).

Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it’s even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you’re still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2020, 08:19:38 AM »

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.


I hadn’t looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it’s called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia’s part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).

Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it’s even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you’re still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)

Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.
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1995hoo

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2020, 08:33:17 AM »

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.


I hadn’t looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it’s called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia’s part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).

Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it’s even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you’re still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)

Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.

I'm sure you're correct, with the possible exception of certain people who might note that the park within which the Clara Barton Parkway runs is part of the same NPS "facility," for legal purposes, as the GW Parkway, and certain long-time residents (and some roadgeeks) who would note that the Clara Barton Parkway was once called the George Washington Memorial Parkway because both sides were supposed to extend further west and be linked by a bridge out around Great Falls (dumb idea). People found it confusing to have two disconnected roads with the same name right across the river from each other, so in the late 1980s there was a proposal to rename the Maryland side to "Martha Washington Memorial Parkway." Maryland preferred Clara Barton because she had lived in Glen Echo.

Somewhere I used to have an old map showing the western extensions and bridge as proposed, but I don't know if I still have it. It wasn't a detailed map of that road, just a street map of the DC area. I seem to recall the highway would have done a number on Great Falls Park, which is part of the reason why I said "dumb idea" in the previous paragraph (plus the road just likely wouldn't have been all that useful).
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2020, 10:02:02 AM »

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.


I hadn’t looked at this thread in a while, so this post is somewhat late, but for those unfamiliar with the channel froggie mentions, it’s called "Boundary Channel," consistent with its role. The reason the islands in the Potomac fall within DC and Maryland go back to Virginia and Maryland's colonial charters from the 1600s (DC inherited Maryland's river borders after Virginia’s part of the District was retroceded). Those charters are still relevant today, BTW–not too long ago, the Supreme Court had an original-jurisdiction case between Virginia and Maryland over Fairfax County's construction of a water intake pipe that Maryland was trying to block (Virginia won, based in no small part on the rights granted to each state in those colonial charters).

Boundary Channel is barely noticeable, if it’s even noticeable at all, from most of the main roads that cross over it, thus furthering the impression that you’re still in Virginia. We went to Arlington Cemetery on Sunday with my mom and she was a little taken aback when I said we had passed through DC en route. (Leaving the cemetery we did not do so–the main entrance was so busy that it caused a backup through the traffic circle, so they opened up the service gate to Columbia Pike for use as an exit and we left that way, thus staying in Virginia.)

Reminds me of a time when I was driving with a friend on the GW Parkway and they were surprised when Google Maps said "Welcome to District of Columbia." I had to explain that we were TECHNICALLY in DC. I'd bet that if you polled the average DMV resident, they would tell you that the GW Parkway was entirely in Virginia.

There used to be a sign at this bridge announcing "Welcome to Washington" that was removed in the 80's(?). I don't believe Virginia had one further down the parkway (would been at the Humpback Bridge), which led to more confusion. Although it may have been replaced for a time by a brown NPS style sign, and I'm now hazy as to which end of the bridge it was on (possibly left side of the roadway after the bridge?), but I remember a stylized sign identical to what was at other entrances to DC at the time.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2020, 01:59:08 PM »

Forgot about this one in West Virginia.  The border between Kanawha County and Putnam County on I-64 westbound occurs at the west end of the Nitro 40th Street bridge (which crosses Armour Creek).  The border appears to follow the creek for a short distance on both sides of this bridge, but the original skewed boundary appears to have been adjusted to include all the properties along 40th Street as part of Kanawha County.  Going eastbound, the signage entering Kanawha County is far enough west of the bridge that there is no confusion.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2020, 02:54:03 AM »

It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.

I never noticed that.  According to the USGS map, the state line follows a (roughly) straight line up to Mill Creek, and then follows Mill Creek a few hundred feet to the Poteau River.  It then follows the Poteau River about 1.6 miles to the Arkansas, just south of US 64.  It follows the Arkansas River 0.4 mile and splits off just north of US 64.

Mill Creek starts in a hollow dividing George and Brooks Stephins Mountains, just south of I-540.  It's about 7.5 miles long and its drainage area is quite narrow, with areas to the west draining into the Poteau and to the east draining into the Arkansas below Fort Smith.  That makes me wonder whether this is the most minor stream that carries a state line.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2020, 11:11:01 AM »

I’ll bet even Google doesn’t know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That’s where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?

I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here, to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.

That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.

The USGS topo maps (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.

Curiouser and curiouser.

According to this, the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.



In the 2010 U.S. Census data, the sliver of land north of State St. is assigned to Lawrenceville, Pennsylvania census block 3014. The census data shows this census block having 23 houses and 59 people. This implies that all of the people living along that stretch were counted as Pennsylvania residents.



I would absolutely trust the older topo maps, along with local GIS sources, over the new topo maps and/or the Federal census data they're based on. The TIGER dataset is pretty rife with examples of generalization, trying to force line segments in one feature class to align nicely with others, resulting in some pretty obvious deflection of things like boundaries where they a legally defined by surveyed lines, for example.

In fact, the bottom image seems to show an attempt by the census to reconcile this fact. It seems to show the state line where the Tioga County aerial photo does–that is, a negligible distance north of the street centerline (perhaps at about the pavement's edge), when in fact it's actually coincident with the municipal border on the north side of the houses. But at least they acknowledge that there's a tiny gore on the north side of the street.

When in doubt, I'd consult GIS parcel data or municipal tax maps. They will at least show where the boundary is understood to be when it really matters, notwithstanding any discrepancies in the legal definition of the boundary itself (as happened not long ago with the NC/SC border).
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US 89

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2020, 12:43:43 PM »

It's not really a fake river boundary because for a very short segment (maybe a mile) the state boundary actually happens to follow a river, but the US 64 bridge at Fort Smith crosses over from Arkansas into Oklahoma at that location.

I never noticed that.  According to the USGS map, the state line follows a (roughly) straight line up to Mill Creek, and then follows Mill Creek a few hundred feet to the Poteau River.  It then follows the Poteau River about 1.6 miles to the Arkansas, just south of US 64.  It follows the Arkansas River 0.4 mile and splits off just north of US 64.

Mill Creek starts in a hollow dividing George and Brooks Stephins Mountains, just south of I-540.  It's about 7.5 miles long and its drainage area is quite narrow, with areas to the west draining into the Poteau and to the east draining into the Arkansas below Fort Smith.  That makes me wonder whether this is the most minor stream that carries a state line.

I just lost 30 minutes of my day looking more into the OK/AR boundary, and it was interesting enough I figured I had to post about it here. It is a fascinating mess of legal documents, treaties, and bad surveys. The Arkansas State Constitution defines the state boundaries, but does not explicitly define the western boundary, leaving that to acts of Congress and treaties existing at the time of statehood. But the act of Congress that admitted Arkansas to the US also does not explicitly define the western boundary, instead referencing the 1828 Treaty of Washington between the United States and the Cherokees:

Quote from: 1828 Treaty of Washington, Article 1
The Western boundary of Arkansas shall be, and the same is, hereby defined, viz: A line shall be run, commencing on Red River, at the point where the Eastern Choctaw line strikes said River, and run due North with said line to the River Arkansas, thence in a direct line to the South West corner of Missouri.

So that only defined the half north of the Arkansas River, and even that depended on the eastern boundary of the Choctaw Nation - which had been contentious ever since the beginning. The original 1820 treaty with the Choctaws put that line between the Arkansas and Red Rivers roughly between Morrilton and Fulton, AR. But white settlement had already advanced past there, and Congress tried to move the boundary to 40 miles west of the southwest corner of Missouri. A compromise line was set in an 1825 treaty:

Quote from: 1825 Treaty of Washington City, Article 1
a line beginning on the Arkansas, one hundred paces east of Fort Smith, and running thence, due south, to Red river

A surveyor named James Conway was selected to survey that line, but he did not survey it directly to the south probably under intense pressure from the white Arkansas settlers. The Conway line angles slightly southwest, but the US government did not acknowledge this until the 1870s when the Choctaw were compensated for the bad survey.

After that the boundary was set at the Conway line, but that created a small strip of Choctaw land east of the Poteau River (and Mill Creek) where laws were rarely enforced. The Arkansas district court got jurisdiction over the strip to deal with that, and then Arkansas began to collect taxes from businesses there. Arkansas finally asked Congress to just make it part of Arkansas, which was done in 1905. The new legal definition in the Fort Smith area became:

Quote
Beginning at a point on the south bank of the Arkansas River one hundred paces east of old Fort Smith, where the western boundary line of the State of Arkansas crosses the said river, and running southwesterly along the south bank of the Arkansas River to the mouth of the Poteau; thence at right angles with the Poteau River to the center of the current of said river; thence southerly up the middle of the current of the Poteau River (except where the Arkansas State line intersects the Poteau River) to a point in the middle of the current of the Poteau River opposite the mouth of Mill Creek, and where it is intersected by the middle of the current of Mill Creek; thence up the middle of Mill Creek to the Arkansas State line; thence northerly along  the Arkansas State line to the point of beginning

Interestingly, in 1985 Oklahoma actually sued Arkansas for control over that strip of land. They lost.

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[...] I found a great international example that I wanted to share: the Missisquoi River Bridge which connects East Richford, VT and Glen Sutton, QC. Note how the bridge over the Missisquoi River aligns with the VT/QC boundary, so you happen to cross both at once even though one does not follow the other. I thought that was pretty cool, all the more so because it's an international boundary, and it's certainly now on my bucket list of places to visit someday!
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2022, 02:03:52 AM »

Almost, but not quite, but US 64 crosses from Oklahoma into Arkansas while crossing the Arkansas River, The vast, vast majority of the AR/OK boundary is a land border, but for about 1/2 mile, the state line is on the south bank of the Arkansas River. This happens to be where US 64 crosses the river. There are talks to build a new bridge somewhere near downtown, so this may change in the future.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2022, 08:51:30 AM »

I'm 99.99% sure we have had a thread about this before, but I cannot find it. If you find it, please share so this can be merged! [done -S.]

Thanks! Never thought to search for "fake", but that is certainly more succinct than my attempt at a title.  :)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 08:54:32 AM by webny99 »
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2022, 09:44:16 AM »

Most of the Delaware Memorial Bridge is in Delaware as the state boundary runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. Since both Delaware and New Jersey place welcome signs on their respective shores, an unassuming motorist might think the state line crosses the bridges at mid-span. Only small (and unhelpful) blue signs are found at the actual state line, along with "0" mile markers from NJ.

Exactly four parcels, and one is a pier owned by the State of New Jersey.  (I maintain New Castle County's cadastral data.)
And, because the border is based on the historic river bank, there are some areas on the NJ side of the river that are actually part of Delaware.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2022, 08:28:36 PM »

US 12 between Ortonville MN and Big Stone City SD, from the 1918 Automobile Blue Book:
Quote
Cross small bridge, which is state line between South Dakota and Minnesota 1.8.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2022, 09:52:56 AM »


Quote
Minnesota 1.8.


When did they launch Minnesota 2.0?
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2022, 05:34:27 PM »

I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.

My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA. 
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2022, 07:55:29 PM »

I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.

My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA. 

What are you referring to?  It doesn't seem to fit the OP, nor any of the most recent posts, and the thread has been dormant for more than a month.
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2022, 08:06:18 PM »

I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.

My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA. 

What are you referring to?  It doesn't seem to fit the OP, nor any of the most recent posts, and the thread has been dormant for more than a month.

Looks like an "end of page 1" issue. Since you have most recent posts first, it's this one.
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Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kphoger

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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2022, 08:47:14 PM »

Ah, thank you.  Well, if you click on the houses that Google Maps supposedly thinks are in New York, the addresses do indeed pop up as Pennsylvania.

Example:  https://goo.gl/maps/e878YE96jRWKwgm66
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2022, 09:21:58 PM »

I wouldn't trust Google map info as far as I can throw my laptop, especially regarding political boundaries.

My eyeballs tell me the state line is the back line of the properties along State Street. My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA. 

I mean…unless there's a boundary dispute, you wouldn't have to rely on adverse possession or anything like that. There is a known, factual answer out there somewhere–and you're right, of course, Google Maps isn't the authoritative source of it!
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Re: Fake river boundaries
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2022, 06:58:18 PM »

My gut tells me adverse possession is 9/10 of the law, so for all intents and purposes those properties lie in PA.

I don't think adverse possession applies to state borders.
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Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

 


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