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Author Topic: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt  (Read 6772 times)

JayhawkCO

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2021, 01:27:46 PM »

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective
I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.

You also wouldn't need street lights anymore as all roads would glow a cool yellow/green color.

Chris

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2021, 01:38:56 PM »

I wonder how they keep the permeable pavement from getting potholes.  Sooner or later that water is not all going to be absorbed by the ground underneath the pavement.  It will pool inside the pavement, and then expand when the temperature drops.  (I'm sure Minnesota never had a time when it was 45 degrees one day and then 10 degrees that night.)

I think we can wait 10-15 years

By that time, they'll have to replace all the permeable pavement that has potholes.

I know a (I believe municipal) test of using porous concrete for a sidewalk didn't even last a single winter for that reason.  The asphalt seems to work better.
porous asphalt seems to have a lot of tar, possibly more than normal. As tar can flow, expansion and contraction can be handled by tar deformation
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kalvado

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2021, 01:42:26 PM »

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective
I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.
He seems to be 100% convinced that we'll have unlimited power for almost no cost. I hope it happens. It needs to happen. But there's a saying from the old days before electricity that fits here as well: don't count your chickens before they hatch. Let's actually develop this "extremely low cost solar power" before we even start planning more ways to overtax it.
My dream is a bit different. I am dreaming about the world where everyone can do basic arithmetic.  Maybe I am asking for too much, though...
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2021, 02:00:50 PM »

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

For once I agree with you on something.

A town dead between the two of us geographically, Lincoln MA has been salt-free for decades. Somehow the town survives just fine. I-95 in Waltham next to the Cambridge Reservoir is also a salt-free stretch that seemingly has no issues being such for drivers.

I always figured after the Mianus River bridge collapse we would work on this. 35 years later and I watch my idiot town build a salt shed to double down even more on salting the roads.

According to Lincoln, MA's website, they use brine, which is a salt/water combination, to pre-treat their roads, and salt and/or sand to treat the roads during and/or after a storm: https://www.lincolntown.org/403/Snow-and-Ice-Removal-PolicyMailboxes

This EPA report from 2016 also references their use of salt and sand: https://www3.epa.gov/region1/npdes/stormwater/assets/pdfs/ma/reports/2016/Lincoln16.pdf

Both links indicate they try to limit the use of salt and sand, but certainly doesn't appear they been "salt-free for decades".
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SectorZ

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2021, 02:08:23 PM »

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

For once I agree with you on something.

A town dead between the two of us geographically, Lincoln MA has been salt-free for decades. Somehow the town survives just fine. I-95 in Waltham next to the Cambridge Reservoir is also a salt-free stretch that seemingly has no issues being such for drivers.

I always figured after the Mianus River bridge collapse we would work on this. 35 years later and I watch my idiot town build a salt shed to double down even more on salting the roads.

According to Lincoln, MA's website, they use brine, which is a salt/water combination, to pre-treat their roads, and salt and/or sand to treat the roads during and/or after a storm: https://www.lincolntown.org/403/Snow-and-Ice-Removal-PolicyMailboxes

This EPA report from 2016 also references their use of salt and sand: https://www3.epa.gov/region1/npdes/stormwater/assets/pdfs/ma/reports/2016/Lincoln16.pdf

Both links indicate they try to limit the use of salt and sand, but certainly doesn't appear they been "salt-free for decades".

The first link says nothing about using brine that I can see in it. My conversations with a town official confirm what I already said. The results of them not using salt speaks for itself if you've actually been there in the winter, which I have frequently since I live a mere 15 miles away.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 02:11:08 PM by SectorZ »
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2021, 02:13:31 PM »

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

For once I agree with you on something.

A town dead between the two of us geographically, Lincoln MA has been salt-free for decades. Somehow the town survives just fine. I-95 in Waltham next to the Cambridge Reservoir is also a salt-free stretch that seemingly has no issues being such for drivers.

I always figured after the Mianus River bridge collapse we would work on this. 35 years later and I watch my idiot town build a salt shed to double down even more on salting the roads.

According to Lincoln, MA's website, they use brine, which is a salt/water combination, to pre-treat their roads, and salt and/or sand to treat the roads during and/or after a storm: https://www.lincolntown.org/403/Snow-and-Ice-Removal-PolicyMailboxes

This EPA report from 2016 also references their use of salt and sand: https://www3.epa.gov/region1/npdes/stormwater/assets/pdfs/ma/reports/2016/Lincoln16.pdf

Both links indicate they try to limit the use of salt and sand, but certainly doesn't appear they been "salt-free for decades".

The first link says nothing about using brine that I can see in it. My conversations with a town official confirm what I already said. The results of them not using salt speaks for itself if you've actually been there in the winter, which I have frequently since I live a mere 15 miles away.
I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

When I read articles like this, I notice two things:

There are numerous links to document and justify their findings.

There aren't links to document and justify other findings.

Guess which category the $1,400 falls into?

Sure, some professor at some college said it, but how did they come up with that conclusion?

There are, no doubt, other costs besides the $70/ton rock salt costs to the government agency.  Rust is a big one, and that contributes to other issues.  But it also needs to be weighed against other costs.  We've seen what happens when roads aren't treated - there was the big crash in Texas this year.  PA seems to have a few large-scale crashes that shuts down their highways each year.  People certainly need to slow down.  But we can't justify this by saying "well, someone died...that's the price to pay for not using road salt", especially when the death was an innocent bystander or someone who was driving prudently.

Transportation departments are always looking for ways to save money.  If anyone has a *practical* way of doing it, they would be all ears.   And hey, if some futuristic method occurs in 10 or 15 years, DOTs will be ecstatic.  But, until then, they use what gets the job done.
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2021, 02:14:56 PM »

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

For once I agree with you on something.

A town dead between the two of us geographically, Lincoln MA has been salt-free for decades. Somehow the town survives just fine. I-95 in Waltham next to the Cambridge Reservoir is also a salt-free stretch that seemingly has no issues being such for drivers.

I always figured after the Mianus River bridge collapse we would work on this. 35 years later and I watch my idiot town build a salt shed to double down even more on salting the roads.

According to Lincoln, MA's website, they use brine, which is a salt/water combination, to pre-treat their roads, and salt and/or sand to treat the roads during and/or after a storm: https://www.lincolntown.org/403/Snow-and-Ice-Removal-PolicyMailboxes

This EPA report from 2016 also references their use of salt and sand: https://www3.epa.gov/region1/npdes/stormwater/assets/pdfs/ma/reports/2016/Lincoln16.pdf

Both links indicate they try to limit the use of salt and sand, but certainly doesn't appear they been "salt-free for decades".

The first link says nothing about using brine that I can see in it. My conversations with a town official confirm what I already said. The results of them not using salt speaks for itself if you've actually been there in the winter, which I have frequently since I live a mere 15 miles away.

Specifically, no it didn't.  They just said they pre-treat roadways.  How else do they pre-treat roadways?

What are the results?
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kphoger

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2021, 02:21:42 PM »

According to Lincoln, MA's website, they use brine, which is a salt/water combination, to pre-treat their roads, and salt and/or sand to treat the roads during and/or after a storm: https://www.lincolntown.org/403/Snow-and-Ice-Removal-PolicyMailboxes

Quote from: The Town of Lincoln, Massachussets
Snow and Ice Removal Policy

Pre-treating the roadway may occur before that, possibly even before the first snow flake hits the ground. Plowing activities will continue as needed through the storm. Once the snowfall has ended, post storm related activities begin. This may mean that a final treatment of sand/salt is applied.

This EPA report from 2016 also references their use of salt and sand: https://www3.epa.gov/region1/npdes/stormwater/assets/pdfs/ma/reports/2016/Lincoln16.pdf

Quote from: NPDES PII Small MS4 General Permit Annual Report
Municipality/Organization: .. Town of Lincoln

This past winter the DPW pre-treated our roads with a brine solution to prepare for winter storm events.

DPW continues to refine its snow and ice management technique with a focus on brine pre-treatments to minimize overall use of salt and sand.

The first link says nothing about using brine that I can see in it. My conversations with a town official confirm what I already said. The results of them not using salt speaks for itself if you've actually been there in the winter, which I have frequently since I live a mere 15 miles away.

The first link says they pre-treat their roads.

In the second link, the town administrator certified under penalty of law to the EPA that they use brine for those pre-treatments.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 02:25:03 PM by kphoger »
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kalvado

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2021, 02:22:11 PM »


When I read articles like this, I notice two things:

There are numerous links to document and justify their findings.

There aren't links to document and justify other findings.

Guess which category the $1,400 falls into?

Sure, some professor at some college said it, but how did they come up with that conclusion?

There are, no doubt, other costs besides the $70/ton rock salt costs to the government agency.  Rust is a big one, and that contributes to other issues.  But it also needs to be weighed against other costs.  We've seen what happens when roads aren't treated - there was the big crash in Texas this year.  PA seems to have a few large-scale crashes that shuts down their highways each year.  People certainly need to slow down.  But we can't justify this by saying "well, someone died...that's the price to pay for not using road salt", especially when the death was an innocent bystander or someone who was driving prudently.

Transportation departments are always looking for ways to save money.  If anyone has a *practical* way of doing it, they would be all ears.   And hey, if some futuristic method occurs in 10 or 15 years, DOTs will be ecstatic.  But, until then, they use what gets the job done.
There is indisputable environmental cost - which is hard to estimate. You can say it costs gazillion dollars because some endemic mosquitos are no longer there, and it is impossible to deny (except for very few people truly care). River water salinity goes up - although road salt is not the only contributor; so drinking water concerns which cost another gazillion. We blame some dead trees around our house on road salt - and that is a direct cost of ~$1000 per removed tree.
So I am not surprized with high cost.
Could we live with snow tires mandate and less road treatment? THat is one possibility. More direct costs, though
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2021, 02:22:22 PM »

Maybe there needs to be a thread about “The Staggering Annoyance of Chain Controls?”
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2021, 02:29:30 PM »

Maybe there needs to be a thread about “The Staggering Annoyance of Chain Controls?”

I question why people that will call in sick on a beautiful summer day to go to the beach will also believe they are the most important person at their company during a snow storm and must get to the office.

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.


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Max Rockatansky

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2021, 02:31:51 PM »

Maybe there needs to be a thread about “The Staggering Annoyance of Chain Controls?”

I question why people that will call in sick on a beautiful summer day to go to the beach will also believe they are the most important person at their company during a snow storm and must get to the office.

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.

That’s a question I’ve asked my wife several times when she was the only person to show up to work in Oakhurst during snow storms.   
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kphoger

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2021, 02:32:56 PM »

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.

In my industry, nasty winter weather days are our busiest days.  They're the days you'd better NOT call in sick.
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JayhawkCO

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2021, 02:40:28 PM »

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.

In my industry, nasty winter weather days are our busiest days.  They're the days you'd better NOT call in sick.

Same when I was running my last restaurant that was in a hotel.  You have flight cancellations and whatnot and the restaurant is crazy busy.

Chris

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2021, 02:44:53 PM »


I remember once, they closed I-135 on the north side of Wichita–while I was on it heading to work in the morning.  I had to figure out an alternate route, ended up having to pass a stuck tow truck at a stoplight and several drivers who couldn't make it up an overpass and had started sliding backwards.  I was 25 minutes late to work and still the first one there.  One of the VPs gave me a gift card in appreciation.  The ice didn't melt from the undercarriage of my minivan for a whole week.

Love stories like that.

I question why people that will call in sick on a beautiful summer day to go to the beach will also believe they are the most important person at their company during a snow storm and must get to the office.

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.

By the way, what changed in the last two years?
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GaryV

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2021, 04:22:27 PM »

The cost of electricity doesn't cover installation and maintenance.  You're talking about electrifying the entire road network in ice-prone areas?

They can mix in graphene with asphalt or concrete to make it electrically conductive.

So you're turning the entire road into a "third rail".  Sounds fun.

BTW, can you explain how you will keep the electricity in the pavement and it won't ground out into the earth?
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jeffandnicole

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2021, 05:05:50 PM »

There's almost no reason why people can't wait a day to do what they need to do, and let the plows clear the roads.

In my industry, nasty winter weather days are our busiest days.  They're the days you'd better NOT call in sick.

No doubt there are *some* people that have to go in, and there's legit reasons why they need to go in.  Hell, someone may say the same thing about me if I'm in a regular vehicle, unaware that I'm trying to get to the yard to report to my shift to plow roads.

But, there's plenty of others that don't need to be out there.  I encountered 2 this year where things went badly for them.  1 person I had assumed had just went out of control and got turned around the other direction. I stopped to assist them...before realizing they were drunk!  They had jumped the curbed median and messed up the car in the process (wasn't even his car).  Another skidded and whacked 2 Stop signs right in front of me.  That person was able to drive away after I assisted them getting out of there (I kinda questioned their ability to drive, but whatever), but their muffler and tailpipe were scrapping along the road as they left.

By the way, what changed in the last two years?

As in...the pandemic?
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SectorZ

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2021, 06:29:21 PM »

And you definitely won't agree with my solution to this: heating coils and climate change  :bigass:

Climate change?

Annual average snowfall for Lowell, MA by decade

81-90: 45.6"
91-00: 54.4"
01-10: 63.8"
11-20: 64.6"

How is a warming climate helping the problem?
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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2021, 06:37:30 PM »

And you definitely won't agree with my solution to this: heating coils and climate change  :bigass:

Climate change?

Annual average snowfall for Lowell, MA by decade

81-90: 45.6"
91-00: 54.4"
01-10: 63.8"
11-20: 64.6"

How is a warming climate helping the problem?

(For those who misunderstand his point, increased snowfall is not mutually exclusive with warming; both are caused by greater absolute humidity. The point is that is that it won't fix kernals12's problem.)

On the other hand, since helping the problem is the opposite of helping solve the problem...
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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2021, 07:01:36 PM »

And you definitely won't agree with my solution to this: heating coils and climate change  :bigass:

Climate change?

Annual average snowfall for Lowell, MA by decade

81-90: 45.6"
91-00: 54.4"
01-10: 63.8"
11-20: 64.6"

How is a warming climate helping the problem?

(For those who misunderstand his point, increased snowfall is not mutually exclusive with warming; both are caused by greater absolute humidity. The point is that is that it won't fix kernals12's problem.)

On the other hand, since helping the problem is the opposite of helping solve the problem...

At some point though the impact of warming will outpower the impact of increased humidity. I suggest we do this
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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2021, 09:34:57 AM »

Shame on me for thinking this thread had potential instead of being a way to route people back to a certain poster's pet ideas.

Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids! (And super-specific threads with pre-determined outcomes are for, well, a certain someone!!!)
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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2022, 08:40:50 AM »

The idea of recycling asphalt is genius! I'm happy to see the tendency to protect our planet from heavier pollution. Scientists wrote such extensive work and created many helpful resources to make people understand the importance of saving our world. I also used it for my university studies. But unfortunately, it's the only drop in the bucket.



« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 02:25:18 PM by apoginors »
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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2022, 02:24:51 PM »

The idea of recycling asphalt is genius! I'm happy to see the tendency to protect our planet from heavier pollution. Scientists wrote such extensive work and created many helpful resources to make people understand the importance of saving our world. I also used it for my university studies. But unfortunately, it's the only drop in the bucket.


Recently, I've read an article about ocean pollution. It's such an enormous scope and kills many animals and fish that live there. It upsets me so much...
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kalvado

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2022, 02:39:45 PM »

The idea of recycling asphalt is genius! I'm happy to see the tendency to protect our planet from heavier pollution. Scientists wrote such extensive work and created many helpful resources to make people understand the importance of saving our world. I also used it for my university studies. But unfortunately, it's the only drop in the bucket.


Recently, I've read an article about ocean pollution. It's such an enormous scope and kills many animals and fish that live there. It upsets me so much...
What does ocean pollution has to do with road salt?
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kkt

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Re: The Staggering Cost of Road Salt
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2022, 02:29:58 AM »


I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.


Heating coils ftw

Saying it doesn't make it (a) practical or (b) cost-effective.  You think nobody thought of your idea before?

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

I'm sure solar power will work just fine during blizzards.
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