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Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered at https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33904.0
Corrected several already and appreciate your patience as we work through the rest.

Author Topic: New Construction Technology  (Read 35428 times)

1995hoo

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2021, 01:59:29 PM »

They're installing electronic alert systems at train crossings to replace noisy train horns. Why couldn't a similar idea work for crosswalks?

How practical is that, especially for unmarked crosswalks?
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kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2021, 02:16:45 PM »

They're installing electronic alert systems at train crossings to replace noisy train horns. Why couldn't a similar idea work for crosswalks?

How practical is that, especially for unmarked crosswalks?

With everything getting connected to the internet it would be very practical for signalized crosswalks. Vehicle to everything communication is nothing short of a revolution
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 02:19:50 PM by kernals12 »
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1995hoo

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2021, 02:27:43 PM »

They're installing electronic alert systems at train crossings to replace noisy train horns. Why couldn't a similar idea work for crosswalks?

How practical is that, especially for unmarked crosswalks?

With everything getting connected to the internet it would be very practical for signalized crosswalks. Vehicle to everything communication is nothing short of a revolution

How practical is that for unmarked crosswalks?
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"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2021, 02:46:01 PM »

They're installing electronic alert systems at train crossings to replace noisy train horns. Why couldn't a similar idea work for crosswalks?

How practical is that, especially for unmarked crosswalks?

With everything getting connected to the internet it would be very practical for signalized crosswalks. Vehicle to everything communication is nothing short of a revolution

How practical is that for unmarked crosswalks?

I guess it's not
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kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2021, 02:48:06 PM »

Combined with electric motors, rubber tires are already a deadly combination.  One of my colleagues was working on a rubber-tired AGT system in Florida and the [dispatcher] mistakenly released a driverless test train into his workzone.  Needless to say, he didn't hear it coming but fortunately was able to jump to safety in the nick of time (we say it the same way in Appalachia, but where I grew up it's still spelt "knick"). Low-noise pavement would be even worse.  Passenger compartments can be constructed to be virtually free from penetration of outside noises (discussed in some other recent threads, with arguments against that as well).

Good god, it's a real life trolley problem
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kphoger

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2021, 02:50:41 PM »




They're installing electronic alert systems at train crossings to replace noisy train horns. Why couldn't a similar idea work for crosswalks?

How practical is that, especially for unmarked crosswalks?

With everything getting connected to the internet it would be very practical for signalized crosswalks. Vehicle to everything communication is nothing short of a revolution

How practical is that for unmarked crosswalks?

It's missing the point anyway, because |kernals12| is mistaken about what jaywalking actually means.

Generally (going by the UVC)...

   1.  Pedestrians are allowed to cross the street anywhere they please–crosswalk or not–with very few exceptions.  Notably, crossing the street outside of a crosswalk is prohibited within one block of a signalized intersection or at a point where there exists a pedestrian bridge or tunnel.  That's it.  Everywhere else is perfectly legal.

   2.  Where there is a crosswalk–marked or unmarked–pedestrians may cross the street whether there is traffic coming or not, as long as they don't suddenly jump right out in front of traffic is "so close as to constitute an immediate hazard".

   3.  Where there is no crosswalk, pedestrians are required to yield to all cross traffic.

Putting this all together, then:  There is an infinite number of places where pedestrians are legally permitted to cross the street, but at which they are required to first yield to cross traffic.  I therefore don't think it's a good idea to make it more difficult for people to tell if cars are coming.
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kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2021, 10:50:26 PM »

So... your solution is to create an environment in which blind pedestrians no longer have to even know if cars are coming?  That might not work so well on a multi-lane 45mph arterial road.  Heck, let's just cross now:  all the cars will stop anyway!

This is the 3rd time where you've used a most preposterous scenario to try to debunk my ideas. First you said that elevated highways were dangerous because sometimes you need to drive on the grass to avoid a crash, then you claim that elevated sidewalks are bad because they make it impossible to walk into the middle of the street to avoid muggers, and now you claim that road noise is good actually, because it warns people of oncoming traffic.
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kphoger

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2021, 09:53:13 AM »


So... your solution is to create an environment in which blind pedestrians no longer have to even know if cars are coming?  That might not work so well on a multi-lane 45mph arterial road.  Heck, let's just cross now:  all the cars will stop anyway!

This is the 3rd time where you've used a most preposterous scenario to try to debunk my ideas. First you said that elevated highways were dangerous because sometimes you need to drive on the grass to avoid a crash, then you claim that elevated sidewalks are bad because they make it impossible to walk into the middle of the street to avoid muggers, and now you claim that road noise is good actually, because it warns people of oncoming traffic.

I'll give you the first one.  Although I've had someone from Mexico City personally tell me that accidents are bad on the elevated highways there precisely because traffic can't move around them–yeah, I'll give you that.

For your second point, I've also given other reasons for elevated sidewalks being bad.  Not being able to avoid people was only one.  Plenty of people already avoid pedestrian underpasses for safety reasons, and I shared an anecdote of my mother having to fend off a mugger on a pedestrian overpass.  I once had a roommate in the Chicago suburbs who liked to go jogging in the middle of the night.  He ran down the middle of the street because he felt safer that way.  One night, a police officer stopped him and told him he should be jogging on the sidewalk.  My roommate explained that there could be anyone hiding in the dark in the bushes, and he felt safer in the middle of the street–moving out of the way whenever a vehicle approached, of course.  You know what the police officer did? He agreed with him!  But, anyway, I also pointed out the awful aesthetics of a neighborhood filled with elevated sidewalks and dismantled your idea that utilities could use them as well.

But, as for the topic at hand, I stand by my assertion that people need to be able to hear cars coming.  When I take my sons for a walk, I train them to use both their eyes and ears to know if traffic is coming.  Relying on only your eyes is not smart.  This is also true for cyclists, although sometimes it's harder to hear traffic while cycling.  I can get a decent idea from tire noise alone if the vehicle I hear approaching from behind me is a small car (not terribly concerning), large pickup (need to get as far to the side as possible), or truck/bus (might even need to pull over and stop).
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kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2021, 10:16:34 AM »


So... your solution is to create an environment in which blind pedestrians no longer have to even know if cars are coming?  That might not work so well on a multi-lane 45mph arterial road.  Heck, let's just cross now:  all the cars will stop anyway!

This is the 3rd time where you've used a most preposterous scenario to try to debunk my ideas. First you said that elevated highways were dangerous because sometimes you need to drive on the grass to avoid a crash, then you claim that elevated sidewalks are bad because they make it impossible to walk into the middle of the street to avoid muggers, and now you claim that road noise is good actually, because it warns people of oncoming traffic.

I'll give you the first one.  Although I've had someone from Mexico City personally tell me that accidents are bad on the elevated highways there precisely because traffic can't move around them–yeah, I'll give you that.

For your second point, I've also given other reasons for elevated sidewalks being bad.  Not being able to avoid people was only one.  Plenty of people already avoid pedestrian underpasses for safety reasons, and I shared an anecdote of my mother having to fend off a mugger on a pedestrian overpass.  I once had a roommate in the Chicago suburbs who liked to go jogging in the middle of the night.  He ran down the middle of the street because he felt safer that way.  One night, a police officer stopped him and told him he should be jogging on the sidewalk.  My roommate explained that there could be anyone hiding in the dark in the bushes, and he felt safer in the middle of the street–moving out of the way whenever a vehicle approached, of course.  You know what the police officer did? He agreed with him!  But, anyway, I also pointed out the awful aesthetics of a neighborhood filled with elevated sidewalks and dismantled your idea that utilities could use them as well.

But, as for the topic at hand, I stand by my assertion that people need to be able to hear cars coming.  When I take my sons for a walk, I train them to use both their eyes and ears to know if traffic is coming.  Relying on only your eyes is not smart.  This is also true for cyclists, although sometimes it's harder to hear traffic while cycling.  I can get a decent idea from tire noise alone if the vehicle I hear approaching from behind me is a small car (not terribly concerning), large pickup (need to get as far to the side as possible), or truck/bus (might even need to pull over and stop).
For the first one, as I said before, that's what breakdown lanes are for.

For the second one, muggings are much less common than pedestrian-vehicle collisions, and your idea of walking into the middle of street would create a massive risk for that.

For the third one, noise pollution is a very real problem that creates many known health complications. I think there are better ways of protecting pedestrians than the roar of traffic
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SectorZ

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2021, 11:00:35 AM »

For the second one, muggings are much less common than pedestrian-vehicle collisions

[citation needed]
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kphoger

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2021, 11:11:09 AM »

much
massive
very real
roar

Your choice of hyperbolic words has convinced me that you're right.
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kernals12

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Re: Poroelastic Asphalt makes roads super quiet
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2021, 11:07:17 PM »

Also, since this asphalt is made from polyurethane, it should be easy to color. In hot places, they could make it white to reduce the urban heat island effect. Or they could make it some fun color for aesthetics.
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kernals12

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New Construction Technology
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2021, 09:35:53 PM »

Today, the California State Senate Committee on Transportation unanimously passed a bill authored by Sen. Ben Hueso (D-San Diego) that would require Caltrans to conduct a feasibility study on the use of waste plastic as an asphalt additive.

This would offer a solution to the ever growing mass of waste plastic society is accumulating and it's been claimed that plastic could massively improve the durability of asphalt, saving taxpayer money on highway repairs. It's been a while since Sacramento has considered such a good idea.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2021, 09:40:16 PM »

Sounds good to me! Whether it will work as advertised remains to be seen.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 09:56:02 PM »

Or concrete could continue to be utilized on freeways and high capacity expressways.  California concrete isn’t exactly the smoothest surface but what was built during the freeway boom of the 1950s and 1960s has staying power. 
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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2021, 12:57:36 AM »

The problem is not all types of plastic are alike or suitable.
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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2021, 01:04:12 AM »

Plastics as an asphalt additive/stabilizer are already in use. The question is how broad the application can be. Some plastics can even be reused as concrete aggregate in some applications (think more sidewalks and curbs than bridges).

Occidental Tourist

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2021, 09:34:15 AM »

The bill also requires local governments to adopt whatever guidelines Caltrans publishes about using recycled plastics in concrete when doing local paving projects.  I imagine this means that local costs for road repair projects will go up (at least initially) if contractors bidding those local road repair projects are forced to bid using specs that require integration of recycled plastics.  It will also be interesting to see if the costs scale proportionately, i.e., will integrating plastics into concrete have the same cost per cubic yard for small scale projects (e.g., replacing a small section of damaged roadway following a water main break) as it will for replacing several hundred yards of thoroughfare.
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kernals12

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2021, 11:05:42 AM »

I'm skeptical. If plastic was such a good asphalt binder, why haven't we been using it all this time?
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skluth

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2021, 03:11:12 PM »

I'm skeptical. If plastic was such a good asphalt binder, why haven't we been using it all this time?

They don't know. That's why it's "a feasibility study on the use of waste plastic." It could happen if it's feasible. If so, which plastics, what ratio to other materials, etc. It may not be feasible. So it's fine to be skeptical.

It's a good idea to look at a lot of methods to use waste plastic. It would be better to stop using plastics completely, but that's not happening. Even by me.
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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2021, 08:58:15 PM »

If it doesn't work out, what would be the solution to getting rid of plastic wastes then? We can't just keep sending them to landfills, and especially not into the ocean.
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kernals12

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2021, 09:28:19 PM »

If it doesn't work out, what would be the solution to getting rid of plastic wastes then? We can't just keep sending them to landfills, and especially not into the ocean.

At some point we'll find a non-polluting way to burn them.
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skluth

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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2021, 01:07:13 AM »

If it doesn't work out, what would be the solution to getting rid of plastic wastes then? We can't just keep sending them to landfills, and especially not into the ocean.

At some point we'll find a non-polluting way to burn them.

More likely, we'll find bacteria that can consume plastic. One such bacteria was found in a Japanese landfill in 2016 and scientists have created another. (Google "japan landfill bacteria eats plastic" for several references.) These new bacteria can hopefully be industrialized to create safe, biodegradable products. The only thing we have to fear is it becoming something out of a Stephen King novel or Japanese kaiju movie.
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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2021, 01:27:23 AM »

If it doesn't work out, what would be the solution to getting rid of plastic wastes then? We can't just keep sending them to landfills, and especially not into the ocean.

At some point we'll find a non-polluting way to burn them.

More likely, we'll find bacteria that can consume plastic. One such bacteria was found in a Japanese landfill in 2016 and scientists have created another. (Google "japan landfill bacteria eats plastic" for several references.) These new bacteria can hopefully be industrialized to create safe, biodegradable products. The only thing we have to fear is it becoming something out of a Stephen King novel or Japanese kaiju movie.

I can just see the bacteria mutating and getting loose to eat up everything made of plastic in its path.  PVC pipes, wiring insulation, polyester clothes...
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Re: California's Freeways Could Soon Be Paved with Waste Plastic
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2021, 06:34:57 PM »

I can just see the bacteria mutating and getting loose to eat up everything made of plastic in its path.  PVC pipes, wiring insulation, polyester clothes...

My god, we'd be forced to go back to using materials that don't immediately break upon use. :P

That does sound like a great premise for a sci-fi short or an episode of something.

Given enough time, it will happen on its own.  Plastics are energy dense and the compounds are not so tightly bounded that the energy is inaccessible in all Earth surface conditions.  Such bacteria will feed from the outcrops of Anthropocene plastoconglomerates a million years from now.
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