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Why not get rid of Lake Shore Drive's At-Grade Intersections

Started by kernals12, March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM

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thspfc

Making Lake Shore a freeway would ruin the experience of driving it. Making it an elevated freeway would ruin downtown Chicago. We don't need to do the 1970s era of freeways again.


The Ghostbuster

Perhaps if LSD had been built slightly further in-land between W. Roosevelt Rd. and W. LaSalle Dr., it could (theoretically) have been built as a freeway. However, given that all the buildings (and parks) likely already existed when the LSD was first constructed, this probably wouldn't have prevented the roadway from following its existing alignment.

kphoger

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're trolling or not.

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:42 AM
And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem

What about all the people who aren't currently on the sidewalk?  What about, say, the kids playing in the lawn, in the shadow of the sidewalk?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hotdogPi

Just because you're high on LSD doesn't mean the roads and sidewalks themselves also need to be high.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kphoger

Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Just because you're high on LSD doesn't mean the roads and sidewalks themselves also need to be high.

It's been really hard so far to avoid using the phrase "people taking LSD".
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jemacedo9

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 10:35:16 AM
Whether this has something to do with this recent post of his is something I don't know and on which I will not speculate.
No, you're not speculating at all.

Brandon

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

That's "L" , not "el" .

As far as The Drive, there's no point to changing it between Monroe and 18th Street.  The backups aren't really all that bad, even at rush hour.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

machias

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
It takes surprisingly little time of living by the L tracks to get used to the noise.  So they tell me.

(I've never lived next to the L, but I did briefly live/stay next to the UP-W in DuPage County, here–with Metra commuter trains, intermodal hotshots, and coal unit trains running down it at all hours.  It was summer, the apartment had no air conditioning, and I slept in the front room with the door open.  By the time those six weeks were over, I was already used to the trains.)

I just moved from living next to a Brown Line stop for nearly four years. Our building was up against the Brown Line. You get used to it, but you still sleep better when you're away from it.

Revive 755

IIRC one of the Strategic Regional Arterial Reports briefly covered possibly removing the lights on Lake Shore Drive.

Flint1979

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 09:27:15 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?
LSD is a lot less hectic than the Kennedy-Dan Ryan combo at rush hour.

SSOWorld

Quote from: Flint1979 on March 27, 2021, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 09:27:15 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 25, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Funny, I used to use that intersection to get to my Dad's apartment back in the 1990s.  It was particularly infamous for long back ups which would clog the turn lane.  Really most of the intersections south of there weren't all that bad and didn't really seem back when I revisited a couple years ago.

But what about during rush hour?
LSD is a lot less hectic than the Kennedy-Dan Ryan combo at rush hour.
You can blame the Artist formerly known as the Circle Interchange for that!  The approaches are being reconstructed which is causing lane blocks and thus blocking traffic.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

hobsini2

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 11:10:01 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 11:08:39 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 10:40:48 AM

Quote from: kphoger on March 25, 2021, 10:35:34 AM

Quote from: kernals12 on March 25, 2021, 07:44:34 AM
As part of the ambitious plans for North Lake Shore Drive, the city is planning to remove the signalized intersection at East Chicago Avenue. So why not remove all of them? The resulting reduction in transit dependence could allow for the removal of some el train lines which blight enormous parts of the city

Which L trains, specifically, could be removed if the intersections were grade-separated?  Lake Shore Drive doesn't even come within a half-mile of any elevated CTA station.

(OK, as the crow flies, I suppose it gets to a half-mile from the Loop itself...)

The Green Line runs on a roughly parallel alignment. If LSD had all this extra capacity, many Southside residents could drive to work. For those that can't afford cars or don't have parking available at work, you can put a dedicated bus lane on the LSD.

You mean like how the Red Line doesn't exist south of Loop, because everyone drives the Ryan?  Or how the Blue Line doesn't exist west of the Loop, because everyone drives the Ike?

Anyway...  People don't take the Green Line from Bronzeville to the Loop because traffic sucks at a few stoplights on Lake Shore Drive.  They take the Green Line because they live near it or can get to it by bus, don't own a car or don't want to pay for parking or don't want the hassle of driving downtown, work somewhere that's also easily accessible by CTA...  Grade-separating LSD wouldn't change any of those factors, except minutely diminishing the hassle of driving downtown–which only applies to those trips where people would actually be taking Lake Shore Drive, which is very few, considering that the Ryan would be a more direct route for most of them.

Hyde Park and Jackson Park, I guess.  You might get some people off the Cottage Branch of the Green Line.  Maybe.  That's it.
The Dan Ryan is a parking lot.
Anyone who says that the Dan Ryan is a parking lot must not take the Ryan on a regular basis.  Even in morning rush hour, you can go from 95th to the Circle in 25 minutes easily. The only "parking lot" part of the Ryan is north of the Stevenson to the Circle.

To quote one of my friends, "Stay out of Chicago business my frient!"
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

hobsini2

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:42 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 08:43:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 26, 2021, 08:28:47 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.
So do tall buildings, which can be found in every major city downtown in the US.

Surely elevated freeways & sidewalks would also have the same effect?

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 26, 2021, 08:33:52 AM
The El is such a part of the Chicago experience, that in most movies and many TV shows set in Chicago, there is usually a shot of the El, with trains rumbling by, complete with noise.

And in some, they even ride it as well! (Shameless, The Fugitive, & Little Fockers come to mind)

All of Chicago's highways, except the lightly used Skyway, are at or below grade. And elevated sidewalks would cast shadows on the ground level, but since pedestrians are walking on top of them it's not a problem
You must not drive on the Kennedy or Stevenson which both have long sections that are elevated. Stevenson is elevated from just east of Pulaski Rd to just west of the Ryan. The Kennedy is elevated between Division St and Addison St. Again, think before thou speaks of Chicago.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

Crash_It

Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

silverback1065

Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Crash_It

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.

silverback1065

#66
Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.
Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.
Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.

GaryV

Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.

Flint1979

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 04, 2021, 01:40:00 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.
Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5

FWIW I've seen some weird things go down around the United Center.  I wasn't too surprised that the Big Ten moved their tournament out of their for Lucas Oil Stadium.  Lucas Oil Stadium is newer and a far more convenient facility which is a much less haggard neighborhood being in downtown than the United Center.
I agree. I hate the area around the UC. It's quite a hike from the El for one thing and the neighborhood around it isnt very good at all. The area around Comiskey Park is better. The UC is where it is for the same reason Comiskey Park is where it is, across the street from the old venue. The funny part is when they built the UC that neighborhood was worse back then than it is today. They should have built something in the South Loop

Crash_It

Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 04, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2021, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on April 03, 2021, 11:21:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 26, 2021, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 25, 2021, 08:26:49 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM
I don't think it's feasible for LSD to be converted into a full freeway at this point without dumping huge sums of money to accomplish that. Huge sums of money that the city nor the state have right now.

Remember that I-494 I-694 proposal from several decades back? Part of it was to use LSD, and the above suggestion would basically be a revival of the old plan, which would forever destroy the scenic beauty and charm that LSD is known for.

LSD has scenic beauty and charm?  :-D

Says the person who's city is mostly run down and beat up streets save for the annexed sections and downtown area.

This "mostly run down and beat up city" just ran the NCAA tourney. also isn't crime ridden or full of corruption.  :)

Not crime ridden? LMAO give me a break . According to this data here Indy is only safer than 4% of US cities

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/indianapolis/crime

Get educated before you spew nonsense.
Maybe you should do that too. I don't even live in Indianapolis.   and you didn't even explain how the road is scenic, you just resorted to childish attacks. Maybe grow up too?

Pixel 5


How is it not scenic? You have the lakefront on one side and the skyline of some of the best architecture in the world interspersed with green spaces and natural areas on the other. There's certainly nothing like that in Indy.

Flint1979

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.
The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

skluth

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.
The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

That may be, but it doesn't change that the average annual snowfall in Chicago is 36 inches while Cleveland averages 54 inches. Chicago also has a much prettier drive along their lake than Cleveland, IMO. Cleveland traffic can't drive along their lake except when zipping along the freeway on I-90 and OH 2 between Edgewater and Gordon Parks.

I disagree that Chicago doesn't get much sun in winter. It gets a lot of sun during cold snaps when cold-core highs park over the Midwest just like the rest of the Midwest, but nobody's spending much time outside then.  :-D

GaryV

Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.
The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

Never say never.  It has frozen over (at least 90 or 95%), I think twice in my lifetime.  And when it does, cold, cold cold.  Michigan is just like Minnesota then.

Flint1979

Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 03:54:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 04, 2021, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 26, 2021, 08:26:18 AM
The El Trains aren't just noisy, they also cast massive shadows on the streets, which makes Chicago's winters even more miserable.

Chicago is in the Midwest.  There's not a lot of sun in the winter anyway.  Being on the west side of the lake makes it better than across the lake in MI, but they still get a lot of lake effect clouds and snow.
The thing with Lake Michigan is it never freezes over so the lake effect snow is always going to happen. With like Lake Erie it freezes over almost every year so once that happens the tendency for lake effect snow goes down dramatically but since Michigan doesn't freeze over you're always going to have like effect snow in that lake.

Never say never.  It has frozen over (at least 90 or 95%), I think twice in my lifetime.  And when it does, cold, cold cold.  Michigan is just like Minnesota then.
It could happen. Lake Erie is so much smaller and shallower than Lake Michigan so that easily freezes over



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