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Proposed US 412 Upgrade

Started by US71, May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM

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Plutonic Panda

Quote from: MikieTimT on June 25, 2021, 09:49:10 AM
Quote from: sparker on June 24, 2021, 04:19:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
I think it's more likely he's one of those "starve the beast" types that gets indignant if the government spends a nickel on anything that doesn't directly benefit him.

....and obviously he sees no benefit in much of anything beyond a 2-lane (if that!) road in his vicinity (hence his objections to improvements in so-called "pristine" areas).  I'd think a horse track would suit his criteria just fine!

Likely retired or otherwise not required to endure commutes like many here.  When traffic isn't an impediment to timely trips to where you have to be, then why would you want taxpayer-funded improvements?  It's like Bella Vista Village up here in NWA.  It took a wholesale demographic change before what was originally a retirement community elected to build the first school in the city, obviously funded with property tax revenue.  Folks on fixed incomes in their twilight years have nothing but time on their hands to fight tooth and nail against change of any sort, but if an area is nice and cheap enough, it eventually draws younger folks too, with all of their infrastructural needs as well not too far behind.  In this case, it brought so many that there's dozens of miles of mountain bike trails cut all over Bella Vista with a tie-in to the Razorback Greenway for access to most of the rest in NWA.
That logic is no different than claiming "why should I have to spend money for public schools if I have no kids."  It's selfish and ridiculous.


Tom958

#201
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights.  Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.

Ha, I've created a monster!

That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it doesn't pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).

It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.

sparker

Quote from: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights.  Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.

Ha, I've created a monster!

That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it does pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).

It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.

If the Congressional folks proposing the Interstate along US 412 get their wishes, there won't be a "Jersey freeway" deployed in Siloam or anywhere else on the corridor; it'll be a high-speed free-flow facility like the rest of the I-system.  Bypassing that town will likely be a PIA for all agencies involved, but even if it's a bit convoluted and/or extended in regards to how far afield it'll be aligned, a plan would eventually materialize -- since most of the rest of the overall corridor is quite straightforward as to where and how it'll be located and configured.   Except for Siloam, this corridor is relatively "low-lying fruit"!

MikieTimT

Quote from: sparker on June 27, 2021, 08:26:20 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on June 27, 2021, 06:47:08 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 21, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
The section of US 412 between Jackson and Dyersburg has no traffic lights.  Why not use this type of concept if you didn't like the superstreet, diverted left turn and roundabouts.

Ha, I've created a monster!

That section of US 412 is nothing like US 412 through Siloam Springs, mainly because it does pass near any sizable towns and because the interchanges were built before right-of-way acquisition became much of a problem (not that it is even now).

It is entertaining to visualize US 412 through Siloam Springs being converted into a Jersey freeway, but there's no way it'll ever happen.

If the Congressional folks proposing the Interstate along US 412 get their wishes, there won't be a "Jersey freeway" deployed in Siloam or anywhere else on the corridor; it'll be a high-speed free-flow facility like the rest of the I-system.  Bypassing that town will likely be a PIA for all agencies involved, but even if it's a bit convoluted and/or extended in regards to how far afield it'll be aligned, a plan would eventually materialize -- since most of the rest of the overall corridor is quite straightforward as to where and how it'll be located and configured.   Except for Siloam, this corridor is relatively "low-lying fruit"!

The section in Arkansas that's 4-laned between the west end of the eventually completed 412 Springdale Bypass on the edge of Tontitown and where a Siloam Springs bypass would logically begin really only needs 7-9 exits/overpasses and very little in the way of access roads as the land north of US-412 can mostly be accessed by Old AR 68, and it's nearly all Ozark Natl. Forest on the south side except around where some exits would need to be for county road crossings.  Wouldn't take much to convert the section between bypasses to limited access as a result, so as much as I'd prefer a new terrain connection between the 2 northern bypasses to save 3-4 miles, it's likely not enough miles saved to justify in this case in my opinion.  It's only about 10.1 miles of road altogether between the bypasses, so it'd be pretty trivial to convert that stretch.

sparker

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49?  Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown!  If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.

US71

Quote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49?  Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown!  If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.

AR 612 will eventually be the 412 Springdale bypass. It will connect to current 412 east of Siloam Springs and 412 near Sonora. Right now it's just a connector from AR 112 to -49/US71
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

sparker

Quote from: US71 on July 01, 2021, 06:52:04 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49?  Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown!  If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.

AR 612 will eventually be the 412 Springdale bypass. It will connect to current 412 east of Siloam Springs and 412 near Sonora. Right now it's just a connector from AR 112 to -49/US71

Thanks for the clarification!  It didn't seem terribly rational or efficient to have two separate facilities with the same goal.  Since it's planned to curve back south to present 412 east of Siloam -- and some posters have suggested that a southern bypass of that town might be more feasible, at least from the standpoint of ROW acquisition and/or ease of construction than looping north of town, the bypass might just be doable without encountering a lot of local opposition. 

Tom958

#207
Quote from: sparker on July 01, 2021, 06:45:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pardon my lack of knowledge regarding this matter, but is the US 412 Springdale Bypass a separate concept/project from the AR 612 "stub" extending west from I-49?  Can't really tell anything from GE/GSV, since it looks like there haven't been any updates posted in recent years; the 612 facility isn't even shown!  If anyone can clear this up, it would be greatly appreciated.


https://www.ardot.gov/divisions/environmental/assessments/impact-statements-eis-assesments-ea/springdale-northern-bypass-highway-412/

edwaleni


sparker

Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412? 

MikieTimT

Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

edwaleni

The US-412 Arkansas Study is located here:

https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf

I can't repost the entire thing, but it does show $2.1 million FY2021 for ROW acquisition to complete the Springdale Bypass to Tontitown.

As for Siloam Springs, there were program dollars for FY2023 to take a 6 lane proposal from Tontitown west from EIS to the next level of planning.

This is probably why the politicians are waking up and wanting get it named an I route, to secure Fed funding.


sparker

Quote from: edwaleni on July 03, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
The US-412 Arkansas Study is located here:

https://www.nwarpc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Hwy-412-Executive-Summary-2020-4.pdf

I can't repost the entire thing, but it does show $2.1 million FY2021 for ROW acquisition to complete the Springdale Bypass to Tontitown.

As for Siloam Springs, there were program dollars for FY2023 to take a 6 lane proposal from Tontitown west from EIS to the next level of planning.

This is probably why the politicians are waking up and wanting get it named an I route, to secure Fed funding.



Since US 412 is already part of a high priority corridor -- actually one of the original ISTEA-specified batch (#8) -- it should already be in line for federal funding.  Elevating it to future Interstate status would potentially direct considerably more attention to the concept, perhaps even to the point of initiating the exploration of a viable alignment for the Siloam bypass. 

Avalanchez71

Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

sprjus4

^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built  :bigass:

Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.

edwaleni

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built  :bigass:

Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.

ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.

When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.

bwana39

Quote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built  :bigass:

Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.

ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.

When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.

It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

sparker

Quote from: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built  :bigass:

Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.

ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.

When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.

It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.

Distinct possibility if the Congressional proposal for Interstate status gets through Congress with the next FY funding package (these days the usual route for such proposals).  Once that's settled, it'll be up to the DOT's to follow suit by identifying in-state/local funding matches (including whatever's necessary to expedite or prioritize the project within their internal processes).  At that point it will become apparent whether the states are on the same page as their congressional delegation(s) regarding this matter.

MikieTimT

Quote from: sparker on July 06, 2021, 01:05:12 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 06, 2021, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 06, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 06, 2021, 10:16:14 AM
^ Except the first half of the western leg is already built  :bigass:

Hopefully the remaining western connection will be complete in the next decade.

ROW purchase is 2021. Pending funding 2025 for construction.

When complete this will also facilitate the XNA Access Project.

It would not surprise me if this project moves ahead of schedule.

Distinct possibility if the Congressional proposal for Interstate status gets through Congress with the next FY funding package (these days the usual route for such proposals).  Once that's settled, it'll be up to the DOT's to follow suit by identifying in-state/local funding matches (including whatever's necessary to expedite or prioritize the project within their internal processes).  At that point it will become apparent whether the states are on the same page as their congressional delegation(s) regarding this matter.

The CAP extension would likely provide any of Arkansas' matching funds if the fed dollars ever made it through the gauntlet.  It's a high priority for the area as US-412 in Springdale has an attrocious LOS with all of the traffic lights and multiplex with US-71B for a few blocks.  And as stated, there's a more direct access road to XNA proposed off the bend to the south of the western leg.

I-55

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.

Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.
Let's Go Purdue Basketball Whoosh

Avalanchez71

Quote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.

Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.

NWA:  Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville:  Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.

Plutonic Panda

#221
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.

Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.

NWA:  Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville:  Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.

Clearly they haven't allocated as needed:

https://www.wsmv.com/traffic/nashville-traffic-congestion-at-all-time-high/article_f3399024-c522-11e9-8d90-f7f7400d2825.html

Since you care so much about people's money:

" It's not just costing us time, it's costing us money, too. In Davidson County, drivers lost $1,221 dollars last year in wasted fuel. "

If you aren't a troll you should really rethink why you're on a forum that loves roads and advocates for roads. I believe there's other forums out there like the Tea Party where toy could happily discuss taxation is theft and all of that garbage.

hobsini2

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 03:52:50 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.

Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.

NWA:  Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville:  Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.

Clearly they haven't allocated as needed:

https://www.wsmv.com/traffic/nashville-traffic-congestion-at-all-time-high/article_f3399024-c522-11e9-8d90-f7f7400d2825.html

Since you care so much about people's money:

" It's not just costing us time, it's costing us money, too. In Davidson County, drivers lost $1,221 dollars last year in wasted fuel. "

If you aren't a troll you should really rethink why you're on a forum that loves roads and advocates for roads. I believe there's other forums out there like the Tea Party where toy could happily discuss taxation is theft and all of that garbage.
We have a saying in one circle of friends of mine whenever one friend in particular goes off on his "taxation is evil", "unmitigated capitalism is good" or "Alabama football is great" rants. Feel free to use it Panda.
#BootMuke
You're welcome.
We do love our guy Mike Williams though.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

Scott5114

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
NWA:  Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.

It'd be pretty fucking stupid to tax and not spend, or to spend and not tax, now wouldn't it?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

In_Correct

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 07, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 06, 2021, 11:03:22 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 06, 2021, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on July 02, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 02, 2021, 02:12:51 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on July 01, 2021, 11:33:56 PM


Cool, thanks for the map!  Saw the 540 shields, then looked at the legend date (2008); this thing has certainly been in the works for a while!  Any timetable to complete the western segment back to existing 412?

Not at this point.  It was one of the projects on the continuation of the 1/2 cent sales tax, but no timelines were included in that statewide marketing push for the ballot initiative.  The western leg will undoubtedly be completed before the eastern leg, though, as it's shorter and just has one interchange with US-412 before it completes.  Can't wait for it to be done.  It'll knock a chunk off my trips to Benton County bypassing AR-112.  We'll see which comes first, AR-112 widening north of US-412, or the western Springdale Bypass leg.

Looks like a wish list from some bureaucrat.

NWA: Plan ahead for future population growth by building out main arteries before traffic problems arise.

Nashville: Let the underbuilt freeway system get completely overrun before trying to fix it.

NWA:  Tax and spend whilst lining pockets and greasing palms.
Nashville:  Conserve funds and allocate as needed with a rainy day fund.

:angry: This is about a Beautiful Toll Road?!  :angry:
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.



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