Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

Started by NJRoadfan, June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM

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fwydriver405

Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.


jakeroot

Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.

roadfro

Quote from: jakeroot on February 14, 2024, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.

Very interesting setup indeed!

I'd guess the left FYAs are used to indicate that left-turning traffic has to yield to traffic that may be turning right from the opposing side of the offset stem...? It's peculiar to say the least.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

mrsman

Quote from: roadfro on February 17, 2024, 04:07:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 14, 2024, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.

Very interesting setup indeed!

I'd guess the left FYAs are used to indicate that left-turning traffic has to yield to traffic that may be turning right from the opposing side of the offset stem...? It's peculiar to say the least.

It seems that the straight through movement is prohibited.  While there is no sign saying that explicitly (straight arrow with a red crossout sign) there is a sign that shows left arrow and right arrow with one stem hanging on the mast arm of the signal.  This generally means that only the directions shown are permitted.

From GSV, it seems that the signal installation is relatively recent, in 2016 and years prior Henry Ave was controlled by stop signs having to yield to traffic on Stevens Creek.

It seems that there is a growing trend to not use a green orb signal if the straight movement is not allowed.  So the only permitted movements are left turns or right turns.  As each is required to yield to something, a protected green arrow is inappropriate, so a flashing yellow arrow is used instead.  I suppose the right turn is protected when no pedestrian pushes the button, but it is probably a good idea to keep it as a FYA, since there may be pedestrians who may make a run for it whenever Stevens Creek gets a red, even if they didnt push the button.

This is a weird signalization indeed.

L.A. tends to have a lot of split intersections, due to the way the city developed.

Here is the corner of Pico and Genessee:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0507399,-118.3635829,3a,75y,22.69h,76.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfLgJpbTYhzHvFYHFCx2sjQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfLgJpbTYhzHvFYHFCx2sjQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D216.83968%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The pedestrian crosswalks are at the edges of the intersection, not the middle.  Also, there is split-phasing and the straight through movement is allowed. 

As a child, I remember this corner used to have regular signalization, left turners would simply have to yield  to traffic that may be coming out of the opposing right corner, but  I certainly agree that the current split-phasing is the safer approach, but of course, the main downside to split-phasing is that it means more red time for Pico.

roadman65

https://maps.app.goo.gl/bJoYPf8sCFys9Hsz7
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fwydriver405

Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AMIf an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:
Video clipped
The above is quite interesting.

First at 1:20 we see somebody making a dangerous left.  This isn't a yellow trap problem, he basically treated the FYA as a green arrow.

But at the end of the phase there is a problem.  They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

I have another minor update on this signal - I passed by it yesterday and stopped to have a quick checkup. It appears that the trap only occurs if there is a call placed on the MA 58 NB approach for the right turn lane. The right turn overlap still occurs if there is a vehicle waiting to turn left onto MA 58 SB from MA 18 SB, but I noticed two things happening:

1. When there is no vehicle detected on the MA 58 NB right turn lane, the FYA signal goes from steady yellow -> to red arrow for a few seconds -> then to a steady green arrow.

2. When there is a vehicle detected on the MA 58 NB right turn lane, the FYA signal stays flashing yellow arrow during the clearance interval and then changes to a steady green arrow.

Case 1 never happened during my last two visits in 2020 and 2023 so I'm not sure if logic was added after I reported the signal to MassDOT. This suggests that the right turn has it's own phase, but not sure how since there is another nearby intersection to the north. Not sure if it runs off of one controller to run both intersections or if the two controllers interconnect with each other.


plain

Here's a recently installed 5-section at the intersection of US 1/301 & Lombardy St in Richmond.

It's an FYA for right turns with the following aspects:

R
YA
FYA
YA
GA

The green arrow only displays when traffic on Lombardy has the green.

GSV hasn't caught up with these replacements yet but here's the location

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.567043,-77.4444,3a,75.0y,177.89745h,86.986534t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_lmeVC1gKTuJUfQtYNkrCg!2e0?g_st=ac


Image from yesterday



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jakeroot

#2007
Quote from: plain on October 10, 2024, 10:13:26 PMHere's a recently installed 5-section at the intersection of US 1/301 & Lombardy St in Richmond.

It's an FYA for right turns with the following aspects:

R
YA
FYA
YA
GA

The green arrow only displays when traffic on Lombardy has the green.

GSV hasn't caught up with these replacements yet but here's the location

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.567043,-77.4444,3a,75.0y,177.89745h,86.986534t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_lmeVC1gKTuJUfQtYNkrCg!2e0?g_st=ac


Image from yesterday

[IMG clipped]

I'm pretty positive this is a one-of-a-kind installation.

I've only ever seen one flashing yellow arrow with two separate yellow arrows, and it's this bimodal installation in Seattle that I think is gone now. It's essentially a left-turn version of that Richmond display, but with a shared green/yellow bottom lens:


It replaced this Seattle-style flashing yellow ball with bimodal left turn arrows, which proliferated across Seattle for decades:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/sLGeYNbQqkMxEsZy5

ran4sh

As a newer resident of Illinois, it surprises me that there are FYA in this state yet it has not been made the standard for new installations - most new installations still use 5-section displays.

One would think that, because FYA can be run as both "protected only" and "protected-permissive" (as well as "permissive only" in the rare case that that's necessary) then FYA would just be used for most new traffic lights.
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freebrickproductions

Quote from: plain on October 10, 2024, 10:13:26 PMHere's a recently installed 5-section at the intersection of US 1/301 & Lombardy St in Richmond.

It's an FYA for right turns with the following aspects:

R
YA
FYA
YA
GA

The green arrow only displays when traffic on Lombardy has the green.

GSV hasn't caught up with these replacements yet but here's the location

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.567043,-77.4444,3a,75.0y,177.89745h,86.986534t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_lmeVC1gKTuJUfQtYNkrCg!2e0?g_st=ac


Image from yesterday





That honestly sounds like the head was originally ordered as a standard inline-five signal, but got bodged into being a weird FYA signal after the head had been ordered/arrived. I wonder if the example @jakeroot posted was also done for a similar reason.
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jakeroot

Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 13, 2024, 02:52:57 PMThat honestly sounds like the head was originally ordered as a standard inline-five signal, but got bodged into being a weird FYA signal after the head had been ordered/arrived. I wonder if the example @jakeroot posted was also done for a similar reason.

In my example, I think it's possible. But Seattle wasn't a big user of bimodal "yield on green" signals except in rare cases (shared lanes mostly, but even then mostly lagging installs), excluding those used for right turns.

What is possible is that it was ordered to be a Seattle-style left turn signal (bimodal green and yellow arrows, flashing yellow orb, solid yellow orb, solid red orb), and then the top three lenses were swapped out for arrows without modifying the bottom signal or illumination pattern (or whatever the terminology). It would still be a hard sell, since they had started to use FYA signals by the time my signal was installed (and it has been converted to FYA since my video, for the record), my guess is more that it was an in-house thing, just messing around or something.

mrsman

What is interesting about the signal in Richmond is that there will be separate YA aspects that will dictate the change from green arrow to FYA and the change from FYA to red arrow.  Red arrow will probably be used as part of a LPI, FYA will be used most of the time (turning allowed but watch for peds ) and green arrow (a true protected turn when the side street has green).

I remember from some of the discussion regarding 4 aspect FYA signals governing left turns that it would be nice to have a separate indication to indicate the termination of the protected phase (green arrow) and the permissive phase (FYA).  This is because there is a lot of rushing on the yellow arrow to make the light that you don't want to encourage when the FYA terminates, because the traffic still has to yield to oncoming traffic in that situation.  So much so that the preference (at least academically if not in practice with signals in the field) is to terminate the FYA with a yellow orb (instead of yellow arrow) so that the traffic will wait for opposing traffic to stop (or red light comes) before completing the left turn.

[It doesn't seem as necessary in this context, which again seems to only be used to facilitate LPI for the pedestrian crossing.



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