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Author Topic: Bike Lanes  (Read 15646 times)

SkyPesos

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Bike Lanes
« on: October 01, 2021, 11:27:41 AM »

Since there doesn't seem to be a general thread about bike lanes yet, I guess I'll start one here.

Over the past few weeks, I've been looking at Dutch roads for quite a bit, and noticed how well bike lanes are designed over there compared to here in the US. Note that I'm not going to suggest anything about removing/banning cars in favor of bikes here (unlike some "urbanists"). I think that both cars and bikes can coexist on a road, and with good infrastructure for both.

I've looked up the MUTCD for bike lane design standards here, and something that I don't get is that why does the bike lane have to cross at the start of a right turn lane? To me, it seems safer for the bike lane to stay on the right side of a right turn lane, as when the right turning car stops at the intersection to look at perpendicular traffic, they can also look at the bike lane while on that same stop before turning.

Continuing from the above image, that "bike lane" suggested in the MUTCD is pretty much a standard road shoulder with a bike symbol painted on it. I've heard it called a "bicycle gutter" before. Is it too much to ask for some separation between a bike lane and the car lanes by default, either with a double white line with some clear space in the middle, or with some sort of physical separation, like those white floppy things? Or even better, a bike path at sidewalk height. I've seen a lot of those here in West Lafayette, IN, and I really enjoy biking on them.

Does anyone else feel like the shared lane symbol is redundant (as cyclists are supposed to bike on the road when no bike lane is present by default), and give a false sense of security to cyclists?


An intersection design that I really like lately, called a "protected intersection" have curbs separating the bike lanes from the car lanes. Here's a satellite view of the first US example in Salt Lake City:


I read up a traffic rule that benefits cyclists called an "Idaho Stop", which allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. Personally, as someone that bikes everyday to get around, I like that new rule, though I can see how some drivers would hate it, as there are tons of road rage issues of drivers against cyclists and pedestrians. Also, doesn't a lot of European cities use yield signs for cars in places where a stop sign would be used in the US?

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2021, 11:39:45 AM »

Is it too much to ask for some separation between a bike lane and the car lanes by default, either with a double white line with some clear space in the middle, or with some sort of physical separation, like those white floppy things?

The busy road I most frequently cross as a pedestrian has a 6-foot shoulder with no physical separation. This acts as a bike lane, but it also allows cars to pass other cars turning left, allows cars to pass stopped buses, and in the case of emergency vehicles, cars can move over. Adding a physical barrier would prevent cars from doing this. In addition, if I step into the shoulder, cars will stop for me (almost always the fourth car or earlier), despite not being strictly required. I would probably be less noticeable as trying to cross if there was visible separation.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2021, 11:55:31 AM »

The Netherlands is a small country with high energy prices and is relatively poorer than the US. It also has a moderate climate for much of the year. Bicycles make some sense there.
Bicycles make little sense in the US, except as a recreational vehicle and on some places like college campuses where a high concentration of low income residents with local transportation needs live.
But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2021, 12:02:44 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.

There's the 6-foot shoulder that I mentioned above (although this isn't the same road) that has multiple purposes. I've seen it used as a bike lane. There's a bike lane marking (but no change in function) exactly once in the several-mile stretch: here. Do you think this is problematic?
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2021, 12:04:25 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.

There's the 6-foot shoulder that I mentioned above (although this isn't the same road) that has multiple purposes. I've seen it used as a bike lane. There's a bike lane marking (but no change in function) exactly once in the several-mile stretch: here. Do you think this is problematic?

Yep, because some hippy on a bike is going to be riding 1 foot off the side line and then grandma is going to slow to half the speed limit and drive half in the other lane to get around him.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2021, 12:06:03 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
Drivers that stay in their lane would have no issues with a bicycle lane on their right side. Do you need the shoulder space to cruise on? That's what car lanes are for.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2021, 12:07:12 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
Drivers that stay in their lane would have no issues with a bicycle lane on their right side. Do you need the shoulder space to cruise on? That's what car lanes are for.

Sure, but that is not how people behave. They feel the need to drive half on the other side of the road if a bicycle is there, slow down to half the speed limit, and obstruct traffic.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2021, 12:09:33 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
Drivers that stay in their lane would have no issues with a bicycle lane on their right side. Do you need the shoulder space to cruise on? That's what car lanes are for.

Sure, but that is not how people behave. They feel the need to drive half on the other side of the road if a bicycle is there, slow down to half the speed limit, and obstruct traffic.
Maybe that's the case for you in Philadelphia. In most places I've been, both driving with a bike lane next to me, and on a bicycle, there's no issues. Drivers didn't need to slow down, especially when there's a couple feet of space (without a barrier), or a street parking spot, between the car lane and bike lane.

Also, have you even walked or biked on the street before? From your posts, it seems like you're dehumanizing everyone that isn't in a metal box with wheels.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2021, 12:11:18 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2021, 12:14:23 PM »

But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
Drivers that stay in their lane would have no issues with a bicycle lane on their right side. Do you need the shoulder space to cruise on? That's what car lanes are for.

Sure, but that is not how people behave. They feel the need to drive half on the other side of the road if a bicycle is there, slow down to half the speed limit, and obstruct traffic.
Maybe that's the case for you in Philadelphia. In most places I've been, both driving with a bike lane next to me, and on a bicycle, there's no issues. Drivers didn't need to slow down, especially when there's a couple feet of space (without a barrier), or a street parking spot, between the car lane and bike lane.

Also, have you even walked or biked on the street before? From your posts, it seems like you're dehumanizing everyone that isn't in a metal box with wheels.

Actually I am basing this more on all the other places I have lived than Philly. In Philly drivers often will blow by a bike at 20 over the speed limit leaving only inches to spare.
I walk on sidewalks, which are designated for walking, and I avoid biking on the road whenever possible. Bike lanes are a waste of funds, particularly when we need so many road projects.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2021, 12:26:16 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 07:00:29 PM by SkyPesos »
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2021, 01:00:51 PM »

Since there doesn't seem to be a general thread about bike lanes yet, I guess I'll start one here.

Over the past few weeks, I've been looking at Dutch roads for quite a bit, and noticed how well bike lanes are designed over there compared to here in the US. Note that I'm not going to suggest anything about removing/banning cars in favor of bikes here (unlike some "urbanists"). I think that both cars and bikes can coexist on a road, and with good infrastructure for both.

I've looked up the MUTCD for bike lane design standards here, and something that I don't get is that why does the bike lane have to cross at the start of a right turn lane? To me, it seems safer for the bike lane to stay on the right side of a right turn lane, as when the right turning car stops at the intersection to look at perpendicular traffic, they can also look at the bike lane while on that same stop before turning.

Continuing from the above image, that "bike lane" suggested in the MUTCD is pretty much a standard road shoulder with a bike symbol painted on it. I've heard it called a "bicycle gutter" before. Is it too much to ask for some separation between a bike lane and the car lanes by default, either with a double white line with some clear space in the middle, or with some sort of physical separation, like those white floppy things? Or even better, a bike path at sidewalk height. I've seen a lot of those here in West Lafayette, IN, and I really enjoy biking on them.

Does anyone else feel like the shared lane symbol is redundant (as cyclists are supposed to bike on the road when no bike lane is present by default), and give a false sense of security to cyclists?


An intersection design that I really like lately, called a "protected intersection" have curbs separating the bike lanes from the car lanes. Here's a satellite view of the first US example in Salt Lake City:


I read up a traffic rule that benefits cyclists called an "Idaho Stop", which allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. Personally, as someone that bikes everyday to get around, I like that new rule, though I can see how some drivers would hate it, as there are tons of road rage issues of drivers against cyclists and pedestrians. Also, doesn't a lot of European cities use yield signs for cars in places where a stop sign would be used in the US?
Regarding right turn lanes, I doubt a motorist is going to stop when they have a green light.  They'll just blow through the turn, and probably ignore the bike lane and hit anyone using it.  At least with crossing the bike lane before entering the turn lane, it provides a visual cue that there's something that needs to be checked.

Regarding sharrows, those are meant more for a kind of blended bike lane and travel lane, not simply as a reminder that bikes can use the lane.  They're intended for use on lanes that are at least 14' wide.

Regarding separation, making the shoulder a bike lane is easier.  Even paint-only buffers requires the space for the buffer plus the bike lane, which not all roads have.  Adding physical separation also has the added complication of snow removal in many parts of the country (in addition to the previously mentioned things like emergency vehicles).
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2021, 02:06:23 PM »

Regarding right turn lanes, I doubt a motorist is going to stop when they have a green light.  They'll just blow through the turn, and probably ignore the bike lane and hit anyone using it.  At least with crossing the bike lane before entering the turn lane, it provides a visual cue that there's something that needs to be checked.
I'm more thinking of places with pedestrian traffic, where right turn cars would have to stop and watch for pedestrians anyways. Side note, don't right turn cars have to yield before turning on a green ball, while they can turn without stopping on a green right arrow (where the pedestrian/bike lights would be red anyways in this instance)?

Regarding separation, making the shoulder a bike lane is easier.  Even paint-only buffers requires the space for the buffer plus the bike lane, which not all roads have.  Adding physical separation also has the added complication of snow removal in many parts of the country (in addition to the previously mentioned things like emergency vehicles).
I found this in Copenhagen (a city known for cycling, and have less sophisticated and more easily replicated cycling infrastructure than the Dutch): .
How about a small "bump" between the road and bike lane? I think it could make bikers feel safer here, and the bump is small enough that emergency vehicles can drive over it. Though the combined right turn lane/bike lane in the above picture is problematic.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2021, 04:07:11 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.

I avoid biking on the road whenever possible.
Then you're breaking the law (for most places I know of, at least) that bikes can't use the sidewalk. Would it be nice to change that in low density suburbia where there aren't a lot of bikers and walkers on the major stroads anyways? Of course. But I'm just going off what's written for now.

I am most certainly not breaking the law. Ever heard of a bike trail? How about rails to trails? Before you accuse someone of breaking the law take 3 seconds to consider the alternatives.
And no, I don't want bikes on sidewalks in suburbia either, those walkways are for pedestrians.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2021, 05:23:21 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.

I avoid biking on the road whenever possible.
Then you're breaking the law (for most places I know of, at least) that bikes can't use the sidewalk. Would it be nice to change that in low density suburbia where there aren't a lot of bikers and walkers on the major stroads anyways? Of course. But I'm just going off what's written for now.

I am most certainly not breaking the law. Ever heard of a bike trail? How about rails to trails? Before you accuse someone of breaking the law take 3 seconds to consider the alternatives.
And no, I don't want bikes on sidewalks in suburbia either, those walkways are for pedestrians.
Sorry for the accusation. Thought you meant biking on sidewalks by that “you don’t bike on the road”
So it seems like you prefer a parallel network of bike trails away from the road right? I’m fine with this too, and are viable over biking on the street, if the network is large enough to get to most places (like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store), like what I see in some Dutch suburbs. I found out a suburb in Georgia (Peachtree City) with a network of golf cart roads, and because of the low speed of golf carts, are used by bikes to get to school and shopping too.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2021, 05:38:35 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.

I avoid biking on the road whenever possible.
Then you're breaking the law (for most places I know of, at least) that bikes can't use the sidewalk. Would it be nice to change that in low density suburbia where there aren't a lot of bikers and walkers on the major stroads anyways? Of course. But I'm just going off what's written for now.

I am most certainly not breaking the law. Ever heard of a bike trail? How about rails to trails? Before you accuse someone of breaking the law take 3 seconds to consider the alternatives.
And no, I don't want bikes on sidewalks in suburbia either, those walkways are for pedestrians.
Sorry for the accusation. Thought you meant biking on sidewalks by that “you don’t bike on the road”
So it seems like you prefer a parallel network of bike trails away from the road right? I’m fine with this too, and are viable over biking on the street, if the network is large enough to get to most places (like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store), like what I see in some Dutch suburbs. I found out a suburb in Georgia (Peachtree City) with a network of golf cart roads, and because of the low speed of golf carts, are used by bikes to get to school and shopping too.

"like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store"
Eh...
This is not Holland. Bikes are a form of recreation. How much are you really going to carry back from the grocery store on a bike? Its just not efficient or practical. Europeans shop for groceries every day because the have no choice, Americans do and they strongly prefer going once a week to Walmart and doing it all at once.
A more realistic system would be a network of separate bike routes for recreation. That allows a fair degree of separation from places like roads and parking lots.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2021, 05:47:19 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.

I avoid biking on the road whenever possible.
Then you're breaking the law (for most places I know of, at least) that bikes can't use the sidewalk. Would it be nice to change that in low density suburbia where there aren't a lot of bikers and walkers on the major stroads anyways? Of course. But I'm just going off what's written for now.

I am most certainly not breaking the law. Ever heard of a bike trail? How about rails to trails? Before you accuse someone of breaking the law take 3 seconds to consider the alternatives.
And no, I don't want bikes on sidewalks in suburbia either, those walkways are for pedestrians.
Sorry for the accusation. Thought you meant biking on sidewalks by that “you don’t bike on the road”
So it seems like you prefer a parallel network of bike trails away from the road right? I’m fine with this too, and are viable over biking on the street, if the network is large enough to get to most places (like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store), like what I see in some Dutch suburbs. I found out a suburb in Georgia (Peachtree City) with a network of golf cart roads, and because of the low speed of golf carts, are used by bikes to get to school and shopping too.

"like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store"
Eh...
This is not Holland. Bikes are a form of recreation. How much are you really going to carry back from the grocery store on a bike? Its just not efficient or practical. Europeans shop for groceries every day because the have no choice, Americans do and they strongly prefer going once a week to Walmart and doing it all at once.
A more realistic system would be a network of separate bike routes for recreation. That allows a fair degree of separation from places like roads and parking lots.
Groceries are one part, but I’m also thinking of kids under 16 not having to ask their mommy to drive them to school or a friend’s house that’s a mile or two away, and could bike there themselves with a bike trails network.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 05:54:02 PM by SkyPesos »
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2021, 06:55:29 PM »

One thing I don't like is where a crosswalk crosses a bike lane at a T-intersection (this example is outside the US Treasury in DC). Legally, the cyclists must stop when the light goes red so that the pedestrians can cross the street with the "Walk" sign. Take a guess how often the cyclists actually stop. It's a wonder there aren't more collisions and injuries through this area.
There's a similar situation near me here. Note that the bike lane is the striped red/gray part. There's even a sign asking for cyclists to yield to crossing pedestrians, though from what I've observed, not a lot of people follow that.

I avoid biking on the road whenever possible.
Then you're breaking the law (for most places I know of, at least) that bikes can't use the sidewalk. Would it be nice to change that in low density suburbia where there aren't a lot of bikers and walkers on the major stroads anyways? Of course. But I'm just going off what's written for now.

I am most certainly not breaking the law. Ever heard of a bike trail? How about rails to trails? Before you accuse someone of breaking the law take 3 seconds to consider the alternatives.
And no, I don't want bikes on sidewalks in suburbia either, those walkways are for pedestrians.
Sorry for the accusation. Thought you meant biking on sidewalks by that “you don’t bike on the road”
So it seems like you prefer a parallel network of bike trails away from the road right? I’m fine with this too, and are viable over biking on the street, if the network is large enough to get to most places (like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store), like what I see in some Dutch suburbs. I found out a suburb in Georgia (Peachtree City) with a network of golf cart roads, and because of the low speed of golf carts, are used by bikes to get to school and shopping too.

"like at least to bike from a home to the nearest grocery store"
Eh...
This is not Holland. Bikes are a form of recreation. How much are you really going to carry back from the grocery store on a bike? Its just not efficient or practical. Europeans shop for groceries every day because the have no choice, Americans do and they strongly prefer going once a week to Walmart and doing it all at once.
A more realistic system would be a network of separate bike routes for recreation. That allows a fair degree of separation from places like roads and parking lots.
Groceries are one part, but I’m also thinking of kids under 16 not having to ask their mommy to drive them to school or a friend’s house that’s a mile or two away, and could bike there themselves with a bike trails network.

16? I had a license at 15. (note to self, start thread on driving age reductions)
My thought is working parents can just drop the kid off at school en route to work, those that don't work should have plenty of time on their hands, and for everyone else we are still providing a bus.
In any case, my issue with sending kids too far on a bike is less to do with the trails and more to do with the fact that there are other criminals out there. By the time they are old enough to not worry so much about that they can drive anyway.
But letting the kids go a couple miles on bikes? Eh, not a fan, even if we built a miniature interstate system for bikes (which admittedly would be pretty badass, little freeway ramps, flyovers!)
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2021, 11:32:52 PM »

The intersection helps avoid "right hooks", which is when a right-turning car hits a cyclist who, in a far-rigjt bike lane going straight through the intersection, comes up from behind the driver while the driver is turning.

In theory the same risk applies to pedestrians who have a walk sign in tandem with a green light. The difference is that *usually* pedestrians don't come up from behind at relatively high speeds, as a cyclist could.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2021, 11:35:13 PM »

This website had a good graphic about the right hook issue. it's most pronounced in urban areas.

https://sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2021, 05:08:48 PM »

No idea why the OP had to find an example in the Netherlands. We have these all over California.

In my experience, bicycle travel efficacy is highly dependent on the locale. It's quite good and useful when I've lived in flat areas like Tidewater and Palm Springs, or in a college town like Madison, WI. I even found it useful and easy when I was stationed in Rota, Spain because of the old narrow streets. It was fairly dangerous when I lived in St Louis.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2021, 06:10:42 PM »

The intersection helps avoid "right hooks", which is when a right-turning car hits a cyclist who, in a far-rigjt bike lane going straight through the intersection, comes up from behind the driver while the driver is turning.

In theory the same risk applies to pedestrians who have a walk sign in tandem with a green light. The difference is that *usually* pedestrians don't come up from behind at relatively high speeds, as a cyclist could.

And this is why I appreciate the way these bike/right turn lanes are designed in most of the US. As a driver I have on more than one occasion nearly hit a person riding one of those motorized scooters on the sidewalk/in a crosswalk when turning right. Even after looking pretty carefully for pedestrians it's still pretty easy to not see them coming as they travel at speeds much greater than your average pedestrian.

And most cyclists are faster than your typical Bird scooter. You might have a bicycle coming up on your right that wasn't there the last time you looked just a few seconds ago. It makes sense to put faster, non-car/motorcycle traffic (bikes, motorized scooters, and the like) to the left of right-turning cars if possible.

SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2021, 06:39:32 PM »

The intersection helps avoid "right hooks", which is when a right-turning car hits a cyclist who, in a far-rigjt bike lane going straight through the intersection, comes up from behind the driver while the driver is turning.
It's better than the shared bike/right turn lanes I see in Copenhagen, at least.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2021, 10:17:51 PM »

Since there doesn't seem to be a general thread about bike lanes yet, I guess I'll start one here.

Over the past few weeks, I've been looking at Dutch roads for quite a bit, and noticed how well bike lanes are designed over there compared to here in the US. Note that I'm not going to suggest anything about removing/banning cars in favor of bikes here (unlike some "urbanists"). I think that both cars and bikes can coexist on a road, and with good infrastructure for both.

I've looked up the MUTCD for bike lane design standards here, and something that I don't get is that why does the bike lane have to cross at the start of a right turn lane? To me, it seems safer for the bike lane to stay on the right side of a right turn lane, as when the right turning car stops at the intersection to look at perpendicular traffic, they can also look at the bike lane while on that same stop before turning.


Your example doesn't show what continues into the intersection.  If the bicyclist were to continue straight ahead, would they need to then turn to their left to get around a median or perpendicular traffic, or curbing on the opposite side?  Usually straight is best, and a vehicle needing to turn right can usually momentarily slow down if a bicyclist is in the lane.


Continuing from the above image, that "bike lane" suggested in the MUTCD is pretty much a standard road shoulder with a bike symbol painted on it. I've heard it called a "bicycle gutter" before. Is it too much to ask for some separation between a bike lane and the car lanes by default, either with a double white line with some clear space in the middle, or with some sort of physical separation, like those white floppy things?

A double-white line is just another 4" line, and doesn't provide any additional pavement for bicyclists or offer up any additional separation from vehicles.  Those white floppy things take away pavement from vehicles who need to park on the shoulder, break down, or otherwise need to stop.   And if one gets hit or busted loose, chances are it's going to wind up in the bicycle lane, creating another hazard for bicyclists.

I read up a traffic rule that benefits cyclists called an "Idaho Stop", which allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. Personally, as someone that bikes everyday to get around, I like that new rule, though I can see how some drivers would hate it, as there are tons of road rage issues of drivers against cyclists and pedestrians. Also, doesn't a lot of European cities use yield signs for cars in places where a stop sign would be used in the US?

Bicyclists like any rule that allows them to ignore the rules. We can talk to one group of bicyclists that are emphatic that bicyclists obey all the laws, then talk to another group of bicyclists that will say the laws are really for motorists, and they're actually dangerous for bicyclists.  And when a bicyclist runs a stop sign because it's a yield sign, and they get hit, they blame the motorist for not paying attention.

Stuff like this happens all the time, and it's why there's a big divide between motorists and bicyclists.  And pedestrians and bicyclists, for that matter.

Groceries are one part, but I’m also thinking of kids under 16 not having to ask their mommy to drive them to school or a friend’s house that’s a mile or two away, and could bike there themselves with a bike trails network.

Kids have biked themselves to friends houses forever, using existing streets, cut-thrus, or whatever exists.  Seems like the classic "forgetting that everyone older than you was once young also" syndrome.
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SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2021, 10:28:59 PM »

Groceries are one part, but I’m also thinking of kids under 16 not having to ask their mommy to drive them to school or a friend’s house that’s a mile or two away, and could bike there themselves with a bike trails network.

Kids have biked themselves to friends houses forever, using existing streets, cut-thrus, or whatever exists.  Seems like the classic "forgetting that everyone older than you was once young also" syndrome.
Which in most cases, can feel unsafe for cyclists (specifically when biking outside of a suburban neighborhood, let alone some place in a city), with the lack of a bike lane or bike trail in most places.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 10:36:38 PM by SkyPesos »
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