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Author Topic: Bike Lanes  (Read 15643 times)

SkyPesos

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2021, 11:14:26 PM »

As a driver I want more bike lanes and more people using them. The more people in the bike lane, the less people in my way in the general purpose lane.

Better yet, ban the bikes from the road, and use the space of the bike lanes for more parking.

Why don't we get rid of the parking spaces for more through lanes, pave over the sidewalks for through lanes, and demolish a few cities for even more through lanes.

Because when you get where you are going you need to be able to park.
Classic case of optimization over 2 goods in Econ 101.
This is why I posted an image of 1970s Houston and asking for your thoughts on the cityscape back then.


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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2021, 11:24:21 PM »

OP, I hope I can clear up some of your confusion in your original post… I work as a transportation engineer for a municipality that’s head over heels for bike infrastructure.

The transition to stay alongside thru traffic is to avoid the most dangerous aspect of biking, the “right turn hook” . It’s much easier to see a cyclist when they’re in front of you rather than behind. Most of us lack the sense of awareness to check our blind spot when making a right hand turn. If a cyclist was approaching from behind, you’d slow down and turn directly into their path, so either you would hit them or they would hit you. Now imagine if it was a heavy vehicle… that’s a death sentence.

Secondly, sharrows are also a tool for bicyclists, not just motorists. They’re strategically placed where cyclists will be the most visible to drivers. This lets cyclists know where to position themselves in the lane. Additionally, sharrows can be used to delineate bike routes. If you have parallel streets with one being posted at 35mph and the other at 25mph, you can place sharrows on the 25mph street to encourage cyclists to opt for this route rather than the faster, more dangerous route beside it. Great, affordable option if you don’t have the funds or volume to put in a bike lane.

I like European bike infra just as much as the next guy, but the taxpayers won’t put up with spending hundreds of thousands on redesigning an intersection just to cater to 1% of the traffic stream!
That explains it a bit more. Thanks

Regarding the right hook, now that I think of it, I guess our solution is better than a right hook, considering Copenhagen can be called the world's best cycling city, and get away with shared bike/right turn lanes.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2021, 01:09:58 AM »

As a driver I want more bike lanes and more people using them. The more people in the bike lane, the less people in my way in the general purpose lane.

Better yet, ban the bikes from the road, and use the space of the bike lanes for more parking.

No, that's worse yet. If a driver was interested in being parked, they wouldn't be in my way. Adding more parking spots doesn't make people stop taking up space in front of my car.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2021, 01:13:15 AM »

I'm all in for bike lanes as long as they're used by the bikes. If there's a bike lane, then bikes shouldn't be in the general purpose lane, or else there shouldn't be bike lanes.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2021, 02:36:08 AM »

On the other hand, there are some bike lanes that are so poorly designed or laid-out that I have to take the lane. One such example is on 2nd Avenue in Downtown Seattle, which has tons of ramps for driveways and pedestrian mixing zones, an uneven application of asphalt, and too much oncoming traffic (as it's a two-way bike lane). If I'm going southbound and downhill, I can generally keep up with rush hour traffic anyway.

Also, sharrows are pretty useless when it comes to being safe infra. It gives false confidence.
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HighwayStar

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2021, 01:27:37 PM »

As a driver I want more bike lanes and more people using them. The more people in the bike lane, the less people in my way in the general purpose lane.

Better yet, ban the bikes from the road, and use the space of the bike lanes for more parking.

Why don't we get rid of the parking spaces for more through lanes, pave over the sidewalks for through lanes, and demolish a few cities for even more through lanes.

Because when you get where you are going you need to be able to park.
Classic case of optimization over 2 goods in Econ 101.
This is why I posted an image of 1970s Houston and asking for your thoughts on the cityscape back then.


Love it. When its 100 degrees outside and 90% humidity you can drive right up to the store you want to go to and park close and not walk out in the heat. Ditto for rain. Works great.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2021, 01:38:47 PM »

Love it. When its 100 degrees outside and 90% humidity you can drive right up to the store you want to go to and park close and not walk out in the heat. Ditto for rain. Works great.

Meh. You could consolidate dozens of acres of parking into a single parking structure (above or below ground), massively reducing the urban heat island effect by potentially increasing green areas, all while keeping cars cooler with the shade of being parked in a covered area. All I see in that picture above is a bunch of baking cars.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2021, 05:02:25 PM »

As a driver I want more bike lanes and more people using them. The more people in the bike lane, the less people in my way in the general purpose lane.

Better yet, ban the bikes from the road, and use the space of the bike lanes for more parking.

Why don't we get rid of the parking spaces for more through lanes, pave over the sidewalks for through lanes, and demolish a few cities for even more through lanes.

Because when you get where you are going you need to be able to park.
Classic case of optimization over 2 goods in Econ 101.
This is why I posted an image of 1970s Houston and asking for your thoughts on the cityscape back then.


Love it. When its 100 degrees outside and 90% humidity you can drive right up to the store you want to go to and park close and not walk out in the heat. Ditto for rain. Works great.
Meaning there's no need to have any parking along the street and plenty of room for a couple streets to have bike lanes.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2021, 05:05:31 PM »

I'm all in for bike lanes as long as they're used by the bikes. If there's a bike lane, then bikes shouldn't be in the general purpose lane, or else there shouldn't be bike lanes.
By that logic, there should be no exclusive car lanes including on all interstates.
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HighwayStar

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2021, 05:39:43 PM »

As a driver I want more bike lanes and more people using them. The more people in the bike lane, the less people in my way in the general purpose lane.

Better yet, ban the bikes from the road, and use the space of the bike lanes for more parking.

Why don't we get rid of the parking spaces for more through lanes, pave over the sidewalks for through lanes, and demolish a few cities for even more through lanes.

Because when you get where you are going you need to be able to park.
Classic case of optimization over 2 goods in Econ 101.
This is why I posted an image of 1970s Houston and asking for your thoughts on the cityscape back then.


Love it. When its 100 degrees outside and 90% humidity you can drive right up to the store you want to go to and park close and not walk out in the heat. Ditto for rain. Works great.
Meaning there's no need to have any parking along the street and plenty of room for a couple streets to have bike lanes.

Nope add an extra lane to those streets, no one wants to bike in 100 plus degree weather anyway. Give me an extra lane so my town car can get me there faster.
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Amtrakprod

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2022, 07:33:54 PM »

The Netherlands is a small country with high energy prices and is relatively poorer than the US. It also has a moderate climate for much of the year. Bicycles make some sense there.
Bicycles make little sense in the US, except as a recreational vehicle and on some places like college campuses where a high concentration of low income residents with local transportation needs live.
But generally speaking, bicycle lanes, no matter how you implement them, are simply a barrier to the cars and trucks on the road that we actually need, and are best left out of construction plans.
Maybe in rural areas, but this is a really not thought out take for suburban or urban regions.


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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2022, 07:37:17 PM »

Since there doesn't seem to be a general thread about bike lanes yet, I guess I'll start one here.

Over the past few weeks, I've been looking at Dutch roads for quite a bit, and noticed how well bike lanes are designed over there compared to here in the US. Note that I'm not going to suggest anything about removing/banning cars in favor of bikes here (unlike some "urbanists"). I think that both cars and bikes can coexist on a road, and with good infrastructure for both.

I've looked up the MUTCD for bike lane design standards here, and something that I don't get is that why does the bike lane have to cross at the start of a right turn lane? To me, it seems safer for the bike lane to stay on the right side of a right turn lane, as when the right turning car stops at the intersection to look at perpendicular traffic, they can also look at the bike lane while on that same stop before turning.

Continuing from the above image, that "bike lane" suggested in the MUTCD is pretty much a standard road shoulder with a bike symbol painted on it. I've heard it called a "bicycle gutter" before. Is it too much to ask for some separation between a bike lane and the car lanes by default, either with a double white line with some clear space in the middle, or with some sort of physical separation, like those white floppy things? Or even better, a bike path at sidewalk height. I've seen a lot of those here in West Lafayette, IN, and I really enjoy biking on them.

Does anyone else feel like the shared lane symbol is redundant (as cyclists are supposed to bike on the road when no bike lane is present by default), and give a false sense of security to cyclists?


An intersection design that I really like lately, called a "protected intersection" have curbs separating the bike lanes from the car lanes. Here's a satellite view of the first US example in Salt Lake City:


I read up a traffic rule that benefits cyclists called an "Idaho Stop", which allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. Personally, as someone that bikes everyday to get around, I like that new rule, though I can see how some drivers would hate it, as there are tons of road rage issues of drivers against cyclists and pedestrians. Also, doesn't a lot of European cities use yield signs for cars in places where a stop sign would be used in the US?
My town in Massachusetts prevents this awkward merge by using a bicycle traffic signal, and a right turn signal with an R10-11b NO TURN ON RED sign. It works very well !


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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2022, 09:40:38 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2022, 10:51:12 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.
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SectorZ

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2022, 07:07:01 AM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

The intersection Amtrakprod showed is one of the handful where it works just because a heavily used rail-trail somewhat bisects the intersection.

But yeah, it would be mostly useless in even many parts of greater Boston.
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Amtrakprod

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2022, 08:29:27 AM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

The intersection Amtrakprod showed is one of the handful where it works just because a heavily used rail-trail somewhat bisects the intersection.

But yeah, it would be mostly useless in even many parts of greater Boston.
It’s used pretty vastly over the greater Boston area. Smarter new installations have blank out signs and bike signals that only turn green when bikes are present, which results in less delay for vehicles and safer crossings when bikes do cross.


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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2022, 09:48:11 AM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2022, 12:04:26 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

NTOR is often considered a good thing in urban areas.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 12:09:20 PM by jakeroot »
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HighwayStar

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2022, 12:54:49 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

NTOR is often considered a good thing in urban areas.

Not by my standards, sitting at red lights when you could turn is a waste of time.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2022, 02:04:12 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

Right on red is generally prohibited in the Boston metro. The default is always no, with the restriction lifted only after analysis.

RTOR is very dangerous with the number of pedestrians in the area. Drivers only look left for a gap in traffic and fail to see the pedestrian stepping off the curb immediately to their right.
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jakeroot

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2022, 07:15:54 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

NTOR is often considered a good thing in urban areas.

Not by my standards, sitting at red lights when you could turn is a waste of time.

But many drivers have have proved inept in urban areas at determining safe times to turn. Ergo, they lose the privilege to turn on red. Better than banning turns completely, that happens a lot in Seattle these days.

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2022, 08:01:06 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

Right on red is generally prohibited in the Boston metro. The default is always no, with the restriction lifted only after analysis.

RTOR is very dangerous with the number of pedestrians in the area. Drivers only look left for a gap in traffic and fail to see the pedestrian stepping off the curb immediately to their right.
I mean, pedestrians need to pay attention too; as a distance runner I personally defer to cars and check if someone could potentially turn every time I cross a road (in town, of course, out by home I can do 10 mile runs without seeing a single vehicle). In my 13,000+ miles and 3500+ runs I've only had a driver almost run into me once, in high school. Then again, my local population density is much much lower than the Boston metro.
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HighwayStar

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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2022, 08:32:13 PM »

I would imagine the vast majority of bike lanes in the US don't get enough cycle traffic to make the reduction in vehicle throughput caused by that right-turn restriction worth it.

With modern technology, reliably detecting bike traffic should be a solved problem. Actuate the bike movement and the delay will match the minimal bike traffic.

Okay, but that's only half the equation. You've also removed the ability to turn right on red when cross traffic has a green.

NTOR is often considered a good thing in urban areas.

Not by my standards, sitting at red lights when you could turn is a waste of time.

But many drivers have have proved inept in urban areas at determining safe times to turn. Ergo, they lose the privilege to turn on red. Better than banning turns completely, that happens a lot in Seattle these days.

As those drivers are the ones paying for the road and keeping the economy running I would say its more of a right for them than a privilege.
Sky walks seem like a better solution here, grade separated and conflict free.
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2022, 08:58:34 PM »

Sky walks seem like a better solution here, grade separated and conflict free.

Oh no, not this again... (kernals12)
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Re: Bike Lanes
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2022, 10:21:58 PM »

As those drivers are the ones paying for the road ...

False.  Only around 50% of road construction and maintenance (both nationwide and in Massachusetts specifically) comes from gas taxes and other user fees.  The rest comes from general taxes, meaning pedestrians pay for the roads too.

https://taxfoundation.org/states-road-funding-2019/
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