ACCESS Oklahoma

[kernals12]

I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road! 

You both are making the mistake of assuming it's possible to have a rational argument with these people.

[Plutonic Panda]

I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road! 

You both are making the mistake of assuming it's possible to have a rational argument with these people.

I somewhat confident it's getting built knowing that time after time the OTA rarely loses or opts to cancel/postpone a project. I'm pretty sure these freeways will get built. I was told the only one that could change the most is the airport connector.

[okc1]

Oklahoma legislator introduces bill for OTA to begin planning and buying ROW for Kickapoo extension north to I-35 in Arcadia. Paywalled article https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/04/04/no-details-given-proposed-kickapoo-turnpike-expansion-around-lake-arcadia-oklahoma-city-okc/7181882001/

[Bobby5280]

The article is hidden behind a pay-wall.

Arcadia? That's just West of Luther, where the Kickapoo Turnpike currently ends at I-44. Rather than Arcadia, I'm hoping that they're actually proposing to extend the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to connect into I-35 a few miles South of Guthrie, maybe between I-35 exits I46 (NE 248th St) and 151 (E Seward Road).

[kphoger]

Paywalled article

The article is hidden behind a pay-wall.

[Plutonic Panda]

Here's some of the article:

Residents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

"I think it's wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,"  he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle's response to Wallace's push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn't see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won't start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won't have to disrupt as much development down the line.

There's more in the article but I don't want post it as the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

[In_Correct]

Here's some of the article:

Residents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

"I think it's wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,"  he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle's response to Wallace's push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn't see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won't start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won't have to disrupt as much development down the line.

There's more in the article but I don't want post it as the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

Send it to me. I shall post the rest.

[Plutonic Panda]

I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

[kphoger]

I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

Did you remember to click the little option button to save a copy in your sent-box?

[Plutonic Panda]

I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

Did you remember to click the little option button to save a copy in your sent-box?

No I didn't do that. That's why. Thanks I always forget to do that.

[Scott5114]

the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

That's good, because they always deserve to be laughed at.

Anyway, who needs them? http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENGR/hB/HB4088%20ENGR.PDF

Section 1705. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is hereby authorized and empowered:
[...]

(e)  To construct, maintain, repair and operate turnpike  projects and highways, with their access and connecting roads, at such locations and on such routes as it shall determine to be feasible and economically sound; provided, that until specifically authorized by the Legislature, the Authority shall be authorized to construct and operate toll turnpikes only at the following locations:

[...]

(20)  All or any part of an Oklahoma City Outer Loop expressway system beginning in the vicinity of I-35 and the Turner Turnpike and extending west into Canadian County and then south to I-40; and then south and east to I-35 in the vicinity of Moore and Norman; and then extending east and north to I-40 east of Tinker Field; and then extending north to the Turner Turnpike; and then extending north and west to I-35 to complete the Outer Loop.

HB 4088 adds the underlined portion. Anyway, it's worth it to read all of Section 1705, which is included in the above link, as the OTA has been authorized to build a lot of things that they haven't ever actually done, some of which are even sensible ideas (like a link from the Northwest Expressway to Watonga).

[Plutonic Panda]

It'd be nice to see that link from NWE to Watonga built as long as it bypasses the town. Then let ODOT do the rest for an interstate connection NW to Colorado which that section should have no tolls since it'll be an ODOT upgrade. ODOT needs to upgrade NWE to a freeway NW of the Kilpatrick and OKC should make the other sections of NWE, well, more of an expressway.

[Plutonic Panda]

Cleveland County commissioners vote against the project smh

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cleveland-county-commissioners-vote-against-ota-turnpike-project

https://kfor.com/news/local/cleveland-county-commissioners-vote-against-turnpike-expansion/

I wonder when/if it's all built and they see an influx of new businesses and residents due to the spurred growth, more new tax revenue, if they'll not like it.

[Bobby5280]

Anyway, it's worth it to read all of Section 1705, which is included in the above link, as the OTA has been authorized to build a lot of things that they haven't ever actually done, some of which are even sensible ideas (like a link from the Northwest Expressway to Watonga).

That gap on OK-3 from Okarche to Watonga has always really bugged me. If a freeway or turnpike going Northwest out of OKC to Woodward (and perhaps beyond) was ever built I would hope they would make a direct path from Okarche to Watonga. The folks in Kingfisher might not like that, but super highways really need to run on a more direct path.

Cleveland County commissioners vote against the project smh

Do those county commissioners have the final word on the toll roads or can the OTA just push forward regardless?

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

[kphoger]

I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

[Plutonic Panda]

I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

I guess. I don't know I mean like I said I really think they low key support it as they know it'll bring in more revenue but like you said the popular thing to do down there seems to be to oppose the turnpikes. Bunch of jokers.

[Scott5114]

I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

Basically. Cleveland County politicians know which side their bread's buttered on when it comes to this issue.

This turnpike package is firmly Kevin Stitt (R)'s baby. Whenever people have sent anti-turnpike messages to his office, his people brush them off with a form letter. So the only way I see it getting cancelled is if Stitt loses his re-election bid (and there are many other reasons besides the turnpike that could conceivably justify a vote against him). But, about that...



I wonder how many of these people will wail and moan about the turnpike project and then vote for Stitt in November because, even though he wants to demolish their house, he's got the right letter after his name...

[Bobby5280]

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

[In_Correct]

From The News:

Residents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

Property owners over the years have repeatedly complained they had no warning before lawmakers gave the OTA permission to proceed. This time, however, those residents can still appeal to legislators to stop it from proceeding.

All this comes as hundreds of residents in the Norman area are protesting the $5 billion ACCESS Oklahoma plan that includes 55 miles of new roads that will cut through neighborhoods, farmhouses, trailers and businesses on the south side of the Oklahoma City metropolitan area.

The OTA is free to use eminent domain to force through property sales as long as the toll roads are in areas previously authorized by lawmakers that, in the case of Norman, provided hints but no real pathways of the future corridors.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Agreed! I can't think of a better place. Hopefully this thing gets built.

[kphoger]

... a new turnpike or even a freeway.

  Is the turnpike not proposed to be a freeway?

[Bobby5280]

I tend to use the term "turnpike" or "toll road" for any super highway with toll gates on it. I like to use "freeway" for a super highway without toll gates.

[okroads]

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Seconded/thirded. OK 37 is barely signed along SW 134th/S 4th anyways, so might as well sign it along the new east-west connector, provided that it's built as planned.

[Scott5114]

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Seconded/thirded. OK 37 is barely signed along SW 134th/S 4th anyways, so might as well sign it along the new east-west connector, provided that it's built as planned.

This would also mend OK 37's weird eastern terminus, where it ends at an old alignment of SH-77H a block short of the current highway.

ODOT would love this because it'd mean they'd get to drop 4th Street onto the cities while not having to be on the hook for the replacement mileage.