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Quote from: HighwayStar on April 11, 2022, 04:27:49 PMI am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.Just because the airport can function doesn't mean it's running at peak efficiency or peak safety. I bet if you told a plane full of passengers that they were flying into an objectively more dangerous airport when a safer one was nearby, they wouldn't be too happy about it...
I am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.
"I am well aware of the reasons a decision was made, but I'm going to choose to disregard them because I like the reasons I made up in my head better."
If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AMDIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AMDIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.I just flew in and out of there. It has aged very quickly. I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AMDIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AMQuote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AMDIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMQuote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AMQuote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AMDIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMYeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 12, 2022, 02:51:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMYeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.Red Herring. Midway is not under discussion here, and the reasons for limitations at that airport are not the same as those that were used to limit Love Field. Love Field did not support flights due to regulations, go read about the Wright Amendment, its not a "conspiracy theory" it happened.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PMI care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PMI care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:23:12 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PMI care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:34:15 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:23:12 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PMI care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.I find that dubious, and also keep in mind the temporal effect, Love Field was not heavily used for the first couple decades after DFW came in but eventually became very valuable.Also the one time value of the property being sold off to other developers is bad accounting and is the type of BS that gets pulled all the time with transportation projects. The perpetual value to the public of improved transportation is worth more than the real estate.