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Author Topic: Can a highway be racist?  (Read 13506 times)

kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2022, 09:48:26 AM »

And what's to say today's focus on light-rail and commuter rail in urban cities won't be seen as wrong-headed in another 20-30 years. The folks at the Bus Riders Union in L.A. have more than a few things to say about LACTMA expansion of light-rail in L.A. County, none of them good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Riders_Union_(Los_Angeles)

Maybe the Bus Riders Union is committing the (more often than not) unpardonable sin of being ahead of its time.

I was thinking last night about the similarities and differences between putting a highway through a poor/minority neighborhood vs putting, say, the Orange Line L between Midway and the Loop in Chicago.  For one thing, the Orange Line mainly used existing railroad r/o/w, meaning that it didn't have quite the same divide-the-neighborhood effect that a new expressway does.
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abefroman329

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2022, 10:07:38 AM »

And what's to say today's focus on light-rail and commuter rail in urban cities won't be seen as wrong-headed in another 20-30 years. The folks at the Bus Riders Union in L.A. have more than a few things to say about LACTMA expansion of light-rail in L.A. County, none of them good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Riders_Union_(Los_Angeles)

Maybe the Bus Riders Union is committing the (more often than not) unpardonable sin of being ahead of its time.

I was thinking last night about the similarities and differences between putting a highway through a poor/minority neighborhood vs putting, say, the Orange Line L between Midway and the Loop in Chicago.  For one thing, the Orange Line mainly used existing railroad r/o/w, meaning that it didn't have quite the same divide-the-neighborhood effect that a new expressway does.
I live three blocks from the four-track embankment that carries the CTA Red and Purple Lines, and I can assure you that it most certainly does not divide the neighborhood.  The ROW needed to carry a four-lane expressway is exponentially wider than the ROW needed to carry a four-track heavy rail line.
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NWI_Irish96

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2022, 10:10:41 AM »

If the US had started building freeways 20 years earlier, would it have been easier to avoid splitting neighborhoods?
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2022, 10:11:56 AM »



And what's to say today's focus on light-rail and commuter rail in urban cities won't be seen as wrong-headed in another 20-30 years. The folks at the Bus Riders Union in L.A. have more than a few things to say about LACTMA expansion of light-rail in L.A. County, none of them good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Riders_Union_(Los_Angeles)

Maybe the Bus Riders Union is committing the (more often than not) unpardonable sin of being ahead of its time.

I was thinking last night about the similarities and differences between putting a highway through a poor/minority neighborhood vs putting, say, the Orange Line L between Midway and the Loop in Chicago.  For one thing, the Orange Line mainly used existing railroad r/o/w, meaning that it didn't have quite the same divide-the-neighborhood effect that a new expressway does.

I live three blocks from the four-track embankment that carries the CTA Red and Purple Lines, and I can assure you that it most certainly does not divide the neighborhood.  The ROW needed to carry a four-lane expressway is exponentially wider than the ROW needed to carry a four-track heavy rail line.

When I was at college near Harlem Avenue, I never got the impression that the Eisenhower really divided neighborhoods south of it from neighborhoods north of it.  But then, most of my time in that area was spent along the Green Line rather than along the Blue Line, so perhaps my impression was misguided.  ?
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D-Dey65

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2022, 10:35:35 AM »

Conversely, Atlanta has been able to escape these ills, and it even built the Jimmy Carter Presidential Library where two of the cancelled freeways (I-675 and I-485, with I-420 being the third) were supposed to have met. That city has gotten along just fine without them, no matter how bad traffic on the existing ones may get.
The fact that traffic has gotten worse, doesn't really convince me the city has gotten along fine without them.

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abefroman329

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2022, 10:35:57 AM »



And what's to say today's focus on light-rail and commuter rail in urban cities won't be seen as wrong-headed in another 20-30 years. The folks at the Bus Riders Union in L.A. have more than a few things to say about LACTMA expansion of light-rail in L.A. County, none of them good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Riders_Union_(Los_Angeles)

Maybe the Bus Riders Union is committing the (more often than not) unpardonable sin of being ahead of its time.

I was thinking last night about the similarities and differences between putting a highway through a poor/minority neighborhood vs putting, say, the Orange Line L between Midway and the Loop in Chicago.  For one thing, the Orange Line mainly used existing railroad r/o/w, meaning that it didn't have quite the same divide-the-neighborhood effect that a new expressway does.

I live three blocks from the four-track embankment that carries the CTA Red and Purple Lines, and I can assure you that it most certainly does not divide the neighborhood.  The ROW needed to carry a four-lane expressway is exponentially wider than the ROW needed to carry a four-track heavy rail line.

When I was at college near Harlem Avenue, I never got the impression that the Eisenhower really divided neighborhoods south of it from neighborhoods north of it.  But then, most of my time in that area was spent along the Green Line rather than along the Blue Line, so perhaps my impression was misguided.  ?
Oh, the Eisenhower and the Kennedy/Dan Ryan divided the hell out of neighborhoods, no question about that.  But it was the expressways that divided them, not the L lines.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2022, 10:52:18 AM »

That may serve to confirm what I was thinking, then:  light rail and commuter rail don't tend to divide neighborhoods because they generally use existing rail corridors–around which those neighborhoods have already grown–whereas an expressway slices a fresh cut through them.

This explains how the Red Line south of the Loop 'divided the hell out of neighborhoods' but the Red Line north of the Loop 'most certainly does not divide the neighborhood'.  The Dan Ryan branch follows the median of a big wide expressway, whereas the North Side main line has been in operation as a passenger railway since 1900.
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nexus73

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2022, 11:41:35 AM »



Highway billboard from North Carolina. 

Rick



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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2022, 11:59:36 AM »

Well, yeah, billboards can definitely be racist.

https://goo.gl/maps/tqqyuc7Z2WLdWY1t7
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abefroman329

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2022, 12:14:13 PM »

That may serve to confirm what I was thinking, then:  light rail and commuter rail don't tend to divide neighborhoods because they generally use existing rail corridors–around which those neighborhoods have already grown

...mostly.  The railroad ROW that the Orange Line follows is a freight line and never hosted passenger rail service, and there hasn't been much TOD along the route.

–whereas an expressway slices a fresh cut through them.

This explains how the Red Line south of the Loop 'divided the hell out of neighborhoods' but the Red Line north of the Loop 'most certainly does not divide the neighborhood'.  The Dan Ryan branch follows the median of a big wide expressway, whereas the North Side main line has been in operation as a passenger railway since 1900.

Agreed on all points.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2022, 12:25:21 PM »


That may serve to confirm what I was thinking, then:  light rail and commuter rail don't tend to divide neighborhoods because they generally use existing rail corridors–around which those neighborhoods have already grown

...mostly.  The railroad ROW that the Orange Line follows is a freight line and never hosted passenger rail service, and there hasn't been much TOD along the route.

No argument from me there–although, now that I'm looking at the timetable, service on the Orange Line appears to be more frequent than I remember it being.  Well anyway, I was more referring to the physical structure not ripping through neighborhoods, because the physical structure was for the most part already there when passenger service was launched.  In this way, adding passenger rail provided access benefit to the neighborhoods without doing much to diminish them in any way.  That's unlike a highway, which can provide access benefit to neighborhoods but at the same time damage them in other ways.
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jamess

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2022, 02:27:35 PM »

Considering segregation was the law of the land, I find it odd when people insist there was no racism at play. Was every highway planner/engineer full on KKK? Of course not. But getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive in aggregate.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 02:30:11 PM by jamess »
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2022, 02:32:19 PM »

segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.
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Rothman

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2022, 02:33:23 PM »

segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.
Yeah.  Yeah, it does.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2022, 02:36:09 PM »



segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.

Yeah.  Yeah, it does.

By that logic, then, everything done by everyone back then was racist in nature–even if the people actually doing the doing weren't racist, and even if they never had race on their mind when they were doing it.  At that point, the conversation becomes meaningless.
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Rothman

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2022, 02:37:52 PM »



segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.

Yeah.  Yeah, it does.

By that logic, then, everything done by everyone back then was racist in nature–even if the people actually doing the doing weren't racist, and even if they never had race on their mind when they were doing it.  At that point, the conversation becomes meaningless.
Nah.  It just means that racism was so pervasive in society to the point of being encouraged by legislation that it becomes impossible to separate it from motivations behind decisions.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2022, 02:44:15 PM »





segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.

Yeah.  Yeah, it does.

By that logic, then, everything done by everyone back then was racist in nature–even if the people actually doing the doing weren't racist, and even if they never had race on their mind when they were doing it.  At that point, the conversation becomes meaningless.

Nah.  It just means that racism was so pervasive in society to the point of being encouraged by legislation that it becomes impossible to separate it from motivations behind decisions.

How is that different?
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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2022, 03:12:25 PM »





segregation was the law of the land ... getting "those people" to go away was certainly seen as a positive

The one does not necessarily follow from the other–at least when it comes to highway planning.  Just because segregation was the law of the land, and just because racism was much more rife then than now, that doesn't necessarily mean that highway planning was done with morally objectionable purposes in mind.

Yeah.  Yeah, it does.

By that logic, then, everything done by everyone back then was racist in nature–even if the people actually doing the doing weren't racist, and even if they never had race on their mind when they were doing it.  At that point, the conversation becomes meaningless.

Nah.  It just means that racism was so pervasive in society to the point of being encouraged by legislation that it becomes impossible to separate it from motivations behind decisions.

How is that different?
Because it's meaningful.  Racism played a part in highway planner's decisions because everyone was racist.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2022, 03:29:38 PM »

Racism played a part in highway planner's decisions because everyone was racist.

Then the whole discussion is pointless.  Basically, because it happened back then, it was racist.  No point in even investigating the question.
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Rothman

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2022, 03:30:26 PM »

Racism played a part in highway planner's decisions because everyone was racist.

Then the whole discussion is pointless.  Basically, because it happened back then, it was racist.  No point in even investigating the question.
The question is investigated.
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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2022, 03:59:48 PM »

Well, yeah, billboards can definitely be racist.

https://goo.gl/maps/tqqyuc7Z2WLdWY1t7
Didn't even have to click the link to know where it was going to take me.. I expected nothing less from Harrison.
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kphoger

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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2022, 04:13:20 PM »


Well, yeah, billboards can definitely be racist.

https://goo.gl/maps/tqqyuc7Z2WLdWY1t7

Didn't even have to click the link to know where it was going to take me.. I expected nothing less from Harrison.

It's the upshot of living in a society that values free speech.  Sometimes people say things we wish they didn't.  It's just a lot harder to ignore when it's a freaking billboard.

Interestingly, the lady whose land the billboard was on hated the fact that such a message ended up on her property, but, because it was under contract and the message was protected under free speech, she had no recourse.  Her own adopted daughter is Hispanic, and she has friends who are black, so a racially charged billboard like that was personally offensive to her.  Eventually, she went to a lawyer, and the lawyer found that Brian Bryant hadn't paid the biannual $20 permit fee.  Because of that technicality, rather than having no legal way of making the sign come down, the DOT ended up being obligated to take it down.  They sent Mr Bryant his final notice, and then, a year after that, the sign came down in September 2017.
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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2022, 04:51:19 PM »

The problem with this discussion is that you'll never get a definitive answer.  To get that would require finding all of the people involved and asking them personally what was in their minds when making the decisions that were made, or determining the policies that were made to guide the decisions, or swaying the consensus in whatever meetings were occurring.  And then that assumes that those people, if alive, are willing to be totally honest if racism did guide their actions.

Did race play a factor?  In some cases, possibly.  Maybe probably.  That's the best answer you're going to get.  And I'm African-American...if that needs to be identified in order for me to make the point I just made. 
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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2022, 07:45:08 PM »

Maybe. But some of the Chicago story came from Mike Roykos Boss. I read an article about the Crosstown Daley pretty much killed every other freeway plan because he felt they built the 1940 Plan and that was enough. The Stevenson was built along the ship canal to avoid teardowns.So it's not clear Daley plotted anything.
The crosstown also was to use existing railroad ROW. Mini crosstown ideas survive because they can be limited to that ROW. The crosstown money went to the Orange line.
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Re: Can a highway be racist?
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2022, 07:33:31 AM »

Well, yeah, billboards can definitely be racist.

https://goo.gl/maps/tqqyuc7Z2WLdWY1t7
Didn't even have to click the link to know where it was going to take me.. I expected nothing less from Harrison.
From what I've heard, a lot of them used to be scattered all over North Carolina. Supposedly, one was even along I-95 in Fayetteville, but I don't remember seeing it.

As for the original question, no matter how much racism exists in the country, you can't convince me that any municipality has ever built roads just to throw black or Hispanic people out of their homes. I don't care if it's in Baltimore, DC, Chicago, Atlantia, Miami, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Boston, Syracuse, or anywhere else. Maybe some racists could see it as an additional benefit, but that's it.

Here's a reminder; Robert Moses built highways through poor and rich neighborhoods alike.



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