Duplicate Controls Not Allowed by MUTCD

Started by roadman65, February 13, 2024, 04:04:04 PM

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hobsini2

I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)


JayhawkCO

Found this one on my camping trip this past weekend. Definitely need two different pointers to a town of 374 people.


mrsman

Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu




I've got no problem with this.  Both roadways lead to Chicago Loop (via Kennedy or via Eisenhower).  I'm not been a fan of the "West Suburbs" and would prefer listing something more specific like Joliet.

ilpt4u

Quote from: mrsman on June 01, 2024, 11:44:23 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu
I've got no problem with this.  Both roadways lead to Chicago Loop (via Kennedy or via Eisenhower).  I'm not been a fan of the "West Suburbs" and would prefer listing something more specific like Joliet.
Joliet would work if accepting the N/S 355/53 corridor as the "main"/through route, even tho it is signed as 290 here. IDOT has precedent for that, signing Aurora for 290 WB/OB Downtown, seeing the 290/88 corridor as the "main"/through route

That said, if a specific suburb actually on/near 290 were to be utilized, I'd say one of: Oak Brook, Elmhurst, Hillside/area near the 88/290/294 interchange

hobsini2

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 02, 2024, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 01, 2024, 11:44:23 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu
I've got no problem with this.  Both roadways lead to Chicago Loop (via Kennedy or via Eisenhower).  I'm not been a fan of the "West Suburbs" and would prefer listing something more specific like Joliet.
Joliet would work if accepting the N/S 355/53 corridor as the "main"/through route, even tho it is signed as 290 here. IDOT has precedent for that, signing Aurora for 290 WB/OB Downtown, seeing the 290/88 corridor as the "main"/through route

That said, if a specific suburb actually on/near 290 were to be utilized, I'd say one of: Oak Brook, Elmhurst, Hillside/area near the 88/290/294 interchange
Of those choices, I would use Oak Brook because of it being more of a draw with the mall.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

SignBridge

Well if I were on that road, as a stranger from New York not knowing where any of those towns are, I would probably find West Suburbs more useful.

ilpt4u

Quote from: SignBridge on June 02, 2024, 08:52:13 PMWell if I were on that road, as a stranger from New York not knowing where any of those towns are, I would probably find West Suburbs more useful.
Interesting perspective on the *directional* Suburbs Controls used in Chicagoland... Perhaps there is some value in the Northern, Northwestern, Western, Southwestern, Southern Suburbs Controls?

Flint1979

Quote from: roadman65 on February 13, 2024, 04:04:04 PMhttps://www.aaroads.com/fl/004/i-004-e-exit-101-11.jpg
It was brought up using one control city for two routes is not allowed per MUTCD.

Yet FDOT recently installed signs that have Mount Dora for both SR 46 and SR 429 in Sanford, FL.
From what I see the two routes intersect each other about 2 miles west of I-4. One's a toll road and one isn't. That could be the reason.

SignBridge

Wow, that display is a mess. Like something you'd see in New Jersey nowadays. Way too much visual confusion with all those logos. Also, South on the West Beltway or South on the East Beltway. ?? More confusion.

They should probably eliminate those Beltway designations from those signs. Also the sign on the right needs to be moved further to the right so the arrows will align with the center of the exiting lanes as per MUTCD policy (and common sense). 

hobsini2

Quote from: SignBridge on June 03, 2024, 08:35:37 PMWow, that display is a mess. Like something you'd see in New Jersey nowadays. Way too much visual confusion with all those logos. Also, South on the West Beltway or South on the East Beltway. ?? More confusion.

They should probably eliminate those Beltway designations from those signs. Also the sign on the right needs to be moved further to the right so the arrows will align with the center of the exiting lanes as per MUTCD policy (and common sense). 

Actually, those signs make sense to me because it says East Beltway and West Beltway. Elimnating the word Beltway would make one think it is not an express way bypass in the area.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

jt4

Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

My interpretation is that I-90 is signed for the airport and I-290 is signed directly for downtown Chicago (via Western Suburbs).

roadman65

I have no part using regions especially with the LIE on Long Island where there are no really big places that stand out from the rest to even point out specifically. Only New York City and Riverhead at each end are really noteworthy.

I had no problems with bridges and tunnels being used either like the Delaware Memorial Bridge, that linked Northeast highways to Mid Atlantic Highways.

However the MUTCD is their own world that we must adapt to now. Including that misuse of Wilmington on the New Jersey Turnpike that many on here hate. I personally don't mind Delaware's largest city used, but many feel Delaware Memorial Bridge users are heading south to Baltimore than stopping at Wilmington.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

SignBridge

So maybe Baltimore should be shown as the Turnpike South destination once we get south of the Penn. Turnpike, Exit-6. Though I actually think Wilmington's reasonable too. Maybe (gasp) both could be posted.

hobsini2

Quote from: jt4 on June 05, 2024, 11:37:59 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

My interpretation is that I-90 is signed for the airport and I-290 is signed directly for downtown Chicago (via Western Suburbs).
The reality is both go to Downtown and depending on the traffic situation, one could use either one reasonably well. But ISTHA doesn't use the message boards to give you the time for both ways to Downtown because they want vehicles to pay the River Rd toll (.75 I-Pass/$1.50) vs the 53/290 toll (.30 I-Pass/.60).
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

mrsman

Quote from: roadman65 on June 06, 2024, 03:39:11 PMI have no part using regions especially with the LIE on Long Island where there are no really big places that stand out from the rest to even point out specifically. Only New York City and Riverhead at each end are really noteworthy.

I had no problems with bridges and tunnels being used either like the Delaware Memorial Bridge, that linked Northeast highways to Mid Atlantic Highways.

However the MUTCD is their own world that we must adapt to now. Including that misuse of Wilmington on the New Jersey Turnpike that many on here hate. I personally don't mind Delaware's largest city used, but many feel Delaware Memorial Bridge users are heading south to Baltimore than stopping at Wilmington.

I think the real problem with Wilmington is that it seems like the bridge meets I-95 south of Wilmington, so heading to Wilmington in this manner does seem like significant backtracking.  It may still be the faster way of going than via Philadelphia or via the Commodore Barry Bridge.  And based on my observations, once over the bridge far more traffic is heading to 95 south rather than 95 north (back to Wilmington).

The use of cities is far better than using bridge names, as most non-locals may not be as familiar with the bridge names.  One can say that this is akin to dropping freeway names on signs and using the route numbers instead, exclusively.

I remember hearing a conversation in New Jersey where people were talking about an incident on the Whitestone Bridge.  The other guy asked, where is that.  Many NJ people are familiar with the names of the tunnels and bridges that connect NJ to NY, but wouldn't necessarily know that the Whitestone Bridge connects Queens to Bronx.  It would not be a good name to use as a control city.

mrsman

Quote from: SignBridge on June 06, 2024, 08:51:35 PMSo maybe Baltimore should be shown as the Turnpike South destination once we get south of the Penn. Turnpike, Exit-6. Though I actually think Wilmington's reasonable too. Maybe (gasp) both could be posted.

Both would be the most appropriate answer here.  The bridge hits DE close to Wilmington, but just south of it.  Baltimore is a very clear long distance destination to direct most non-local traffic.

mrsman

Quote from: hobsini2 on June 07, 2024, 10:10:52 AM
Quote from: jt4 on June 05, 2024, 11:37:59 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 30, 2024, 09:13:42 AMI would also argue that if the control has a second control with it, like the West Memphis example upthread, it's perfectly fine because you are still distinguishing between they highways.
We have a perfect example here in Chicagoland on I-90.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0597926,-88.0477017,3a,75y,94.9h,95.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGT4Gtc-23EowoQAUMwULSQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D94.90047966303493%26pitch%3D-5.494987672854862%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu

My interpretation is that I-90 is signed for the airport and I-290 is signed directly for downtown Chicago (via Western Suburbs).
The reality is both go to Downtown and depending on the traffic situation, one could use either one reasonably well. But ISTHA doesn't use the message boards to give you the time for both ways to Downtown because they want vehicles to pay the River Rd toll (.75 I-Pass/$1.50) vs the 53/290 toll (.30 I-Pass/.60).

Also. I-90 seems to generally have more lanes throughout, and is a more direct routing with less mileage than I-290 between this location and the Circle Interchange.

Also, I-90 is probably more reachable to more parts of Downtown Chicago than I-290, but that is largely speculative as to where the driver's ultimate destination is.  I-290 is better for South Loop, and I-90 is better for Gold Coast, West Loop and most parts of the Central Loop.  Of course, this is all traffic dependent.

roadman65

#67
I-78/ US 22 in PA at the split near Kuhnsville has the three primary Lehigh Valley cities listed like this
https://maps.app.goo.gl/igWyGCRqtN74QByn7

Both routes are freeways and do serve all three respectively.

Whether it's MUTCD, or not IMO I like the method used.

The actual primary control cities at the 78/22 split are not any LV major cities.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GNdjPxtVrVRvjd94A
New Jersey is I-78 East and PA Turnpike/ LVI Airport for US 22 East.  So Allentown- Bethlehem- Easton are secondary here.  So that could be a loophole for duplicate signing.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bzakharin

Quote from: roadman65 on June 11, 2024, 10:25:52 AMI-78/ US 22 in PA at the split near Kuhnsville has the three primary Lehigh Valley cities listed like this
https://maps.app.goo.gl/igWyGCRqtN74QByn7

Both routes are freeways and do serve all three respectively.

Whether it's MUTCD, or not IMO I like the method used.
What additional information does this sign provide? I can understand if it were a VMS with travel times, or one of the routes were a toll route, but as it is it does not help the driver make a decision.

SignBridge

Quote from: roadman65 on June 11, 2024, 10:25:52 AMI-78/ US 22 in PA at the split near Kuhnsville has the three primary Lehigh Valley cities listed like this
https://maps.app.goo.gl/igWyGCRqtN74QByn7

Both routes are freeways and do serve all three respectively.

Whether it's MUTCD, or not IMO I like the method used.

The actual primary control cities at the 78/22 split are not any LV major cities.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GNdjPxtVrVRvjd94A
New Jersey is I-78 East and PA Turnpike/ LVI Airport for US 22 East.  So Allentown- Bethlehem- Easton are secondary here.  So that could be a loophole for duplicate signing.

I agree that the sign showing the two separate routes for Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton is an effective, common-sense solution for that location. Regrettably, it would appear to be a violation of the MUTCD standard. But sometimes common sense is more effective than the Manual's arbitrary standards.



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