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Author Topic: Traffic signal  (Read 795609 times)

steviep24

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4625 on: July 17, 2022, 10:09:01 AM »

Anyone know what railroad that is in the photo? Is it the CSX (former New York Central) Main Line?
Yes it is. Also used by Amtrak.
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steviep24

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4626 on: July 17, 2022, 10:31:57 AM »

Speaking of "NO TURN ON RED" signals there are some along NY 104 in Rochester.

Here's one at a shopping center entrance.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2056243,-77.6680592,3a,15y,193.1h,105.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_npGKTLjlBFMyXW9AOCTVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

These come on when the signals for NY 104 are in protected left/u turn phase.
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mrsman

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4627 on: July 17, 2022, 08:51:22 PM »

HOW!? https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1391254,-77.7084796,3a,15.4y,280.33h,99.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sar8YgBMkYheZ4tX2sd2J5w!2e0!5s20210601T000000!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Not a ped signal. It's a "NO TURN ON RED" sign that lights up when there's a train. I live in that area.
Not uncommon to see those around here.
They also use them for LPIs.

CA also coverted ped signals as a warning for when the freeway meters were on.  They would flash "meter on" in white with the same technology as "Don't walk" when the meters were on, and off otherwise.  Eventually, they followed MUTCD standard with yellow flashing orbs as the warning for when meters were on.

As the ped signal is a common piece of hardware, I can see it being used when other hardware is not available.

Speaking of "NO TURN ON RED" signals there are some along NY 104 in Rochester.

Here's one at a shopping center entrance.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2056243,-77.6680592,3a,15y,193.1h,105.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_npGKTLjlBFMyXW9AOCTVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

These come on when the signals for NY 104 are in protected left/u turn phase.

These are far more common for NTOR signals.  But these are designed specifically for a warning message at specified times.  (Similar hardware can also light up for "no left turn" when left turns are restricted during rush hours, and for "Use 2 lanes" or other messaging as appropriate in reversible lane situations.)
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Hobart

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4628 on: July 17, 2022, 08:54:53 PM »

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.1874503,-82.3959633,3a,63.3y,150.98h,92.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNPjRwHKz11VRy6B-UOTzsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I find this intersection interesting....To the left you can see on the mast arm a doghouse signal and a regular signal....to the right....no road, and its been this way for a while too....at least since 2016: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.1874468,-82.3959704,3a,75y,130.49h,92.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suLuRQuqLiTN-yQ8lSjaj_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's even equipped with a pre-emption device on the mast arm that faces nothing!

Several on the "new" (not that new, but not very old) alignment of US 41 southeast of downtown Chicago have this kind of thing.
https://goo.gl/maps/hNvypm42fDLVsWaE9
It is surprising that they bother using the electricity for signals facing nothing, but it must make sense to someone.

It looks like they since cannibalized this installation to replace a left turn signal somewhere in the city.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.744687,-87.5403959,3a,48.7y,299.31h,96.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1ICLEmW4f0vmgjHmpcl10w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Amtrakprod

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4629 on: July 18, 2022, 09:53:05 PM »

Speaking of "NO TURN ON RED" signals there are some along NY 104 in Rochester.

Here's one at a shopping center entrance.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2056243,-77.6680592,3a,15y,193.1h,105.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_npGKTLjlBFMyXW9AOCTVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

These come on when the signals for NY 104 are in protected left/u turn phase.
They’re known as blank-out, or part-time restriction signs.

Here’s a video of one in my state, being used for an exclusive pedestrian phase.

iPhone
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PurdueBill

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4631 on: July 18, 2022, 11:13:27 PM »

On the second one, it does look like as recently as last year there was traffic coming and going from a grove which is now all mowed down.  Prior years' views show plenty of tire tracks of stuff going in and out.
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Big John

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4632 on: July 18, 2022, 11:15:27 PM »

What traffic signal warrants were met? :hmmm:
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roadfro

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4633 on: July 19, 2022, 04:53:48 PM »

HOW!? https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1391254,-77.7084796,3a,15.4y,280.33h,99.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sar8YgBMkYheZ4tX2sd2J5w!2e0!5s20210601T000000!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Not a ped signal. It's a "NO TURN ON RED" sign that lights up when there's a train. I live in that area.
Not uncommon to see those around here.
They also use them for LPIs.

CA also coverted ped signals as a warning for when the freeway meters were on.  They would flash "meter on" in white with the same technology as "Don't walk" when the meters were on, and off otherwise.  Eventually, they followed MUTCD standard with yellow flashing orbs as the warning for when meters were on.

As the ped signal is a common piece of hardware, I can see it being used when other hardware is not available.

Nevada also did the same for ramp meter warnings initially. The few that were installed in the Reno area are gone, replaced by the standard MUTCD sign with a warning beacon. However, they are still very prevalent in the Las Vegas area (but new installations now use the sign and beacon).
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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4634 on: July 19, 2022, 04:54:05 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

ANOTHER EXCUSE A LIGHT THAT FACES DIRT CMON COUNTY PULL YOUR SHIT TOGETHER https://www.google.com/maps/@35.441539,-119.2046511,3a,70.6y,280.49h,94.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1NDrTDtD4nHOB7R9_3shFA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D1NDrTDtD4nHOB7R9_3shFA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D316.0508%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
On the second one, it does look like as recently as last year there was traffic coming and going from a grove which is now all mowed down.  Prior years' views show plenty of tire tracks of stuff going in and out.
Also a place to provide for a legal u-turn after a distance with no median break.

Lukeisroads, I think you might need to dial it down a little. Neither of these is super uncommon.
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Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4635 on: July 19, 2022, 07:28:37 PM »

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192



These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

Bumping this because I happen to spot this while playing around on GSV. This is in Pittsburgh. Note the NTOR sign...

https://maps.app.goo.gl/xZBq2ZMgPHKHwocX7
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jakeroot

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4636 on: July 19, 2022, 08:00:09 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.
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US 89

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4637 on: July 19, 2022, 08:23:20 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.

Ehh, that intersection most reminds me of this one at a rock quarry in Salt Lake City, which uses protected-only phasing (and Utah is not a state to fully protect turns without good reason, except in the case of dual left turn lanes). Trucks making that turn are so slow that they'd never be able to get across on a permissive left with any amount of oncoming traffic until the light started to change... and then of course, it takes like 10 seconds for said truck to clear the intersection. Protecting these sorts of turns seems fine to me. Saves the trucker from worrying about whether that car a quarter mile down the road will be at the intersection by the time he can clear it, and saves the driver from having to stop and wait on a green if the trucker guessed wrong.

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4638 on: July 19, 2022, 09:17:53 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.

Ehh, that intersection most reminds me of this one at a rock quarry in Salt Lake City, which uses protected-only phasing (and Utah is not a state to fully protect turns without good reason, except in the case of dual left turn lanes). Trucks making that turn are so slow that they'd never be able to get across on a permissive left with any amount of oncoming traffic until the light started to change... and then of course, it takes like 10 seconds for said truck to clear the intersection. Protecting these sorts of turns seems fine to me. Saves the trucker from worrying about whether that car a quarter mile down the road will be at the intersection by the time he can clear it, and saves the driver from having to stop and wait on a green if the trucker guessed wrong.

Are you sure it's not protected-only because it's across four lanes of 50+ mph traffic? That would warrant protected-only phasing in a lot places, irrespective of gap availability, number of turn lanes, etc.

If we're just going off personal experience, I can think of plenty of left turns that are "truck heavy" that have either no protected phasing, or protected-permissive phasing. A particularly famous double left turn in New Westminster BC was almost 100% trucks, but was permissive anyways. This heavy left turn in Issaquah to a quarry was originally permissive only, but they recently installed a flashing yellow arrow. Most signals in the SODO (industrial) area of Seattle are fully permissive, many without even a left turn lane. At none of these was I/am I aware of any outstanding issues.
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US 89

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4639 on: July 20, 2022, 09:16:16 AM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.

Ehh, that intersection most reminds me of this one at a rock quarry in Salt Lake City, which uses protected-only phasing (and Utah is not a state to fully protect turns without good reason, except in the case of dual left turn lanes). Trucks making that turn are so slow that they'd never be able to get across on a permissive left with any amount of oncoming traffic until the light started to change... and then of course, it takes like 10 seconds for said truck to clear the intersection. Protecting these sorts of turns seems fine to me. Saves the trucker from worrying about whether that car a quarter mile down the road will be at the intersection by the time he can clear it, and saves the driver from having to stop and wait on a green if the trucker guessed wrong.

Are you sure it's not protected-only because it's across four lanes of 50+ mph traffic? That would warrant protected-only phasing in a lot places, irrespective of gap availability, number of turn lanes, etc.

I mean, the fact that it crosses three lanes of 50mph traffic certainly helps its case, but the light just up the road at 400 West is entirely permissive across 3 lanes of 45mph (though turn volumes on that left are likely far less).

State guidance only requires fully protecting a left with dual turn lanes, 4 oncoming through lanes, or a 60+ mph speed limit - and even then, there are exceptions to that last criteria (as on SR 36 north of Tooele, which has multiple protected-permissive lefts across two 60mph lanes that in my experience carry quite a bit of traffic). That would suggest an additional safety factor exists to require fully protecting those turns at the SLC intersection.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:20:49 AM by US 89 »
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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4640 on: July 20, 2022, 03:58:27 PM »

Not sure if Maine or IDOT  :hmmm:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/RbF5PohN7xoDG5fz7

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Big John

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4641 on: July 20, 2022, 04:33:59 PM »

^^ IDOT doesn't use yellow visors.
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roadfro

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4642 on: July 20, 2022, 04:56:03 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.
Fair point. That's one of the areas of traffic control that I'm glad Nevada differs from California... Nevada is not afraid to install protected-permitted left turns.
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Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4643 on: July 20, 2022, 05:02:26 PM »

^^ IDOT doesn't use yellow visors.

I know lol it's a joke...
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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4644 on: July 20, 2022, 08:05:57 PM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.
Fair point. That's one of the areas of traffic control that I'm glad Nevada differs from California... Nevada is not afraid to install protected-permitted left turns.

I've noticed that too in some parts of California, notably Santa Clara County, that every signalized intersection is protected left only, whether it needs it or not. Can't imagine what the reasoning is out there. But here's an idea: the appropriate level of left-turn protection should be determined by the guidelines in the MUTCD and established engineering criteria. Not just a blanket policy that may not make sense in all cases. When did one size fits all ever apply to traffic engineering?
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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4645 on: July 21, 2022, 07:42:38 AM »

Ive Had Enough of the county TO A FERTILIZER PLACE REALLY https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4417952,-119.1941408,3a,65.7y,241.88h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DuK6FzbetQyZ3E-5gPtBWEg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.14487%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

A fertilizer plant, that likely has high peak flows during shift changes, and trucks heading in that may have a harder time turning left across traffic... Not unreasonable.

A left turn signal may be warranted. But, need it be protected-only?

The incessant need to fully protect every. single. left. turn is very much a California (if not Caltrans)-specific issue, and I find the policy to be rather irritating.
Fair point. That's one of the areas of traffic control that I'm glad Nevada differs from California... Nevada is not afraid to install protected-permitted left turns.

I've noticed that too in some parts of California, notably Santa Clara County, that every signalized intersection is protected left only, whether it needs it or not. Can't imagine what the reasoning is out there. But here's an idea: the appropriate level of left-turn protection should be determined by the guidelines in the MUTCD and established engineering criteria. Not just a blanket policy that may not make sense in all cases. When did one size fits all ever apply to traffic engineering?

Agreed.  New technology and new realities demand a re-evaluation of many of these policies.  The FYA signal can provide so much flexibility, eliminating yellow trap for lagging lefts and allowing for TOD signaling.

Plus, a lot of areas of life, including traffic engineering, need to be re-evaluated in light of post-COVID and WFH.  Are we seeing considerably less traffic consistently given those realitie?  If so, perhaps the peak is not so peaky and we can do away or modify rush-hour parking and turn restrictions and also re-evalute these left turn policies.
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mrsman

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4646 on: July 21, 2022, 08:01:41 AM »

Here's a weird signal in Washington DC at the corner of 5th and Quincy, NW.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9379189,-77.0190026,3a,75y,193.62h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shmowpdcf3Jx_fWLTjizbvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9378369,-77.0189863,3a,75y,193.62h,88.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUXOk0akyXgB9YVHZyiSjfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Two signal heads on 5th street, which is one way.  Red - yellow - flashing yellow.  Quincy doesn't see a signal head, only stop signs.  Normally, a regular intersection with 5th having no stop and Quincy facing stop signs.  But since this is kind of close* to the next intersection, DC puts in a mandatory stop with a red light, whenever the next signal (at Rock Creek Church) has a red light.

In some ways, this is similar to a HAWK, but with two key exceptions.  The red light does not flash.  There are no pedestrian signals facing Quincy, and otherwise no indication if there is enough time to safely cross the street while the traffic on 5th faces a red light.

There are similar "half signals" in DC on two-way streets as well.  In those cases, the signal only faces the direction of traffic that is prior to the main signal, not the reverse direction.  Here is one that used to exist at 5th and I, but a few years ago, it was changed to a full signal (controlling movements on both 5th and I) that are done in coordination with the main signal at Massachusetts and 5th.  [The changes make the area far safer, especially for those walking.]

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9005688,-77.0189117,3a,15y,357.1h,88.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shqQhUSuqKWTaUr3kU-9nOw!2e0!5s20090701T000000!7i13312!8i6656


* I personally do not think this is close enough to recieve any special treatment and I believe the signal should be removed.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 08:11:39 AM by mrsman »
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andarcondadont

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4647 on: July 28, 2022, 11:40:02 PM »

Check out this approach in Coon Rapids, MN. Protected only phasing with dual left turn lanes and a straight only lane for a total of 5 signals. Here in 2017, all of the signals have red orbs, including the signals for the left turn lanes. By 2021, 2 of the left turn signals have been retrofitted with red turn arrows, yet the remaining left turn signal (for the outer turn lane) still has a red orb.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 11:56:56 PM by andarcondadont »
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hobsini2

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4648 on: August 03, 2022, 03:36:54 PM »

I saw this weird one in person in San Francisco last week walking back to my uncle's place just up the street. This is Vermont St at 16th St. When the light changes off the red, the bottom 2 lights flash yellow arrows. Vermont St becomes a one way street south of 16th heading north.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7661193,-122.4046944,3a,19.7y,175.32h,94.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6atbRrC8knASjKzRRARyKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Big John

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Re: Traffic signal
« Reply #4649 on: August 03, 2022, 04:48:38 PM »

^^ Per MUTCD, the left arrow is supposed to be above the right arrow.
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