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Traffic signal

Started by Tom89t, January 14, 2012, 01:01:45 AM

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SignBridge

Roadman, you make some good points. You're right about that 40 ft. from the stop-line rule. That's in Section 4D along with the cone of vision. And it does also say that at least one and preferably both required heads, must be within the cone. I remember some talk among engineers on the FHWA discussion forum about the need to change that rule to require both heads to be within the cone.

I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow. Regrettably this is a common practice in Calif, and N.J. But I think it's misleading. New York had a rule against this practice. I don't know if they retained it when they abolished their own Manual and went with the Federal Manual, with a State Supplement. A near-right pole mounted head is a good alternative on a right-hand curved approach.

I can't believe that NYC still had any 2-color signals in use in 2003. They changed most or all of them to 3-color back in the 1960's. As you suggested, it was probably used in flashing red/yellow mode.


Alps

Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM


I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow.
While I'm not against it, I note that when a signal turns horizontal, the up-down order of the signal becomes a right-left order. In keeping with that, I expect the left-turn arrows to be at the far right of the signal, after the RYG. It violates my expectancy to see arrows mixed between the balls. Just doesn't look natural.

myosh_tino

Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM
I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow. Regrettably this is a common practice in Calif, and N.J. But I think it's misleading. New York had a rule against this practice.
Can you provide some examples of this particular signal setup because I don't think this is common practice in California... at least in Northern California and I don't ever recall seeing a green ball left of a left turn signal.  If there is an overhead left turn signal, then the pole-mounted signal on the far left corner is also a left turn signal.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

SignBridge

#53
Correct Myosh, re: the far-left corner. But, if the approach is a right-hand curve, Calif. will often have a near-left corner pole or mast-arm mounted green ball or both. Three examples:

In Serramonte (Bay Area) on eastbound Hickey Blvd. at Campus Dr.

In San Diego's Mission Valley area, eastbound on Camino De La Reina at Avenida Del Rio. (near the N/W corner of the interchange of I-5 and SR-163.

Also (s/w corner of same interchange) on westbound Hotel Circle South at Bachmann Place. Ain't Google Earth great? Have fun!

And Steve, yes I agree that horizontal signals result in an unusual arrangement that I don't really like either. I guess they feel that the left-turn arrow needs to be to the left of the green-ball. Logical in a way.

myosh_tino

Quote from: SignBridge on May 13, 2012, 01:31:00 PM
Correct Myosh, re: the far-left corner. But, if the approach is a right-hand curve, Calif. will often have a near-left corner pole or mast-arm mounted green ball or both. Three examples:

In Serramonte (Bay Area) on eastbound Hickey Blvd. at Campus Dr.

In San Diego's Mission Valley area, eastbound on Camino De La Reina at Avenida Del Rio. (near the N/W corner of the interchange of I-5 and SR-163.

Also (s/w corner of same interchange) on westbound Hotel Circle South at Bachmann Place. Ain't Google Earth great? Have fun!
I don't see how the signal arrangements in your three examples are bad.  I looked at the first two intersections on Google Maps and eliminating the near left signals would be a very bad idea because the main signals are located on a blind curve where drivers are not given enough warning on the current state of the signal.  This situation is really not that common in California but when it is used, there appears to be a good reason why the signals were set up that way.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

roadman65

Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 11:09:46 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM


I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow.
While I'm not against it, I note that when a signal turns horizontal, the up-down order of the signal becomes a right-left order. In keeping with that, I expect the left-turn arrows to be at the far right of the signal, after the RYG. It violates my expectancy to see arrows mixed between the balls. Just doesn't look natural.

Florida's horizontal signals have the yellow arrow and green arrow to the left of the green ball and right of the yellow ball.  Yet on the normal vertical mount it is all on the bottom below the green ball.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman65

#56
Quote from: myosh_tino on May 13, 2012, 12:22:16 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM
I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow. Regrettably this is a common practice in Calif, and N.J. But I think it's misleading. New York had a rule against this practice.
Can you provide some examples of this particular signal setup because I don't think this is common practice in California... at least in Northern California and I don't ever recall seeing a green ball left of a left turn signal.  If there is an overhead left turn signal, then the pole-mounted signal on the far left corner is also a left turn signal.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clark,+NJ&hl=en&ll=40.630256,-74.309142&spn=0.007817,0.021136&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.082817,86.572266&oq=clark&hnear=Clark,+Union,+New+Jersey&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.630286,-74.309022&panoid=YfsZJzRsd8OpoQshCXANbg&cbp=12,225,,0,0

Raritan Road Southbound at Central Avenue in Clark, NJ where a green ball is to the left of the left turn signal (hidden behind the GSP shield) as Raritan Road has a curve leading into Central Avenue.  The green 8 inch signal head (on the NB signal pole) is out of the cone of view for those making a left turn. 
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadfro

Quote from: roadman65 on May 16, 2012, 08:33:59 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 12, 2012, 11:09:46 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM
I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow.

While I'm not against it, I note that when a signal turns horizontal, the up-down order of the signal becomes a right-left order. In keeping with that, I expect the left-turn arrows to be at the far right of the signal, after the RYG. It violates my expectancy to see arrows mixed between the balls. Just doesn't look natural.

Florida's horizontal signals have the yellow arrow and green arrow to the left of the green ball and right of the yellow ball.  Yet on the normal vertical mount it is all on the bottom below the green ball.

The MUTCD prescribes the required positioning of arrows and circular faces of different colors. The order of arrows does change when a 5-section vertical is moved to horizontal, and also changes depending on whether it's a left or right arrow. The layout Roadman65 describes is the standard for a horizontal 5-section PPLT display.

I think the positioning of arrows for the left turn is this way to avoid having the left green arrow to the right of the circular green, which might be confusing. The concept is similar to how on a green guide sign, a left arrow is always left of the destination and a right arrow is always on the right.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadman65

Is there any place other than Downtown Orlando, FL that has special bus signals using the Pennsylvania Railroad's positional bars rather than the red, yellow, and green balls?  For exclusive bus lanes there are these non MUTCD signal heads that use a cross bar for stop, an angle bar for caution, and a vertical bar for clear to proceed. 
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Orlando,+FL&hl=en&ll=28.545605,-81.37747&spn=0.009575,0.021136&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.082817,86.572266&oq=or&hnear=Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.545668,-81.37747&panoid=hQl0dEsvAl5Bsqy0M2t3Xg&cbp=12,0,,0,0

The assembly being questioned is to the left of the two main signal heads here.  Sorry I do not have a closeup to give you, but was wondering if any other place uses these for city buses on exclusive ROW?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

PurdueBill

#59
Quote from: roadman65 on May 27, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
Is there any place other than Downtown Orlando, FL that has special bus signals using the Pennsylvania Railroad's positional bars rather than the red, yellow, and green balls?  For exclusive bus lanes there are these non MUTCD signal heads that use a cross bar for stop, an angle bar for caution, and a vertical bar for clear to proceed.  
The assembly being questioned is to the left of the two main signal heads here.  Sorry I do not have a closeup to give you, but was wondering if any other place uses these for city buses on exclusive ROW?

The "HealthLine" RTA bus on Euclid Ave in Cleveland has dedicated signals something similar to that type.  They are in black housings vs. the vehicular ones in yellow, to increase the difference.

I could swear that I saw color-coded ones with bars in California one time--maybe Santa Clara? but I would have to dig for the possible picture I may have taken, if I am remembering right.

Edit: It wasn't a bus signal but a trolley signal in California--probably more common to have the bar indications.  The color as well as bar direction is interesting.  (Note that the picture was not taken from the trolley but from a conventional bus.)

roadfro

Quote from: roadman65 on May 27, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
Is there any place other than Downtown Orlando, FL that has special bus signals using the Pennsylvania Railroad's positional bars rather than the red, yellow, and green balls?  For exclusive bus lanes there are these non MUTCD signal heads that use a cross bar for stop, an angle bar for caution, and a vertical bar for clear to proceed. 

The MUTCD has a similar signal scheme primarily designed for light rail vehicles but is also allowed to be used for bus rapid transit lanes and bus queue jumper lanes. This uses white indications with a horizontal bar signifying stop/red, a vertical bar signifying go/green (with an additional angle bar in a separate face used to indicate a turning movement, with the upper end of the bar slanted left or right as appropriate), and an equilateral triangle pointing up and flashing to indicate the caution/yellow.


This standard MUTCD transit signal is being used on Grand Central Pkwy in downtown Las Vegas where the express buses drive in exclusive bus lanes.

Reno, NV is also using the standard signal at selected bus lanes/queue jump lanes for the RTC Rapid bus along Virginia Street.

Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

deathtopumpkins

The MBTA uses that for streetcar signals, but with the horizontal bar colored red rather than white.
I'm not sure if any of the BRT uses these or not though, as the only part I've had any exposure to is the Silver Line Washington Street, which does not.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

Clinched Highways | Counties Visited

kj3400

I find it strange the the Baltimore light rail uses signals that look like they're encased in pedestrian signals.
We also use a diagonal line as opposed to a triangle.
http://goo.gl/maps/KFG7
Call me Kenny/Kenneth. No, seriously.

roadman65

Quote from: kj3400 on May 30, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
I find it strange the the Baltimore light rail uses signals that look like they're encased in pedestrian signals.
We also use a diagonal line as opposed to a triangle.
http://goo.gl/maps/KFG7

In 2003 I noticed the NJ Transit Hudson-North Bergen Light Rail used (or might still use) signals that are also encased inside pedestrian signal heads.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bulkyorled

Quote from: myosh_tino on May 13, 2012, 12:22:16 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on May 12, 2012, 09:55:04 PM
I agree that a green ball should not be located to the left of a left-turn arrow. Regrettably this is a common practice in Calif, and N.J. But I think it's misleading. New York had a rule against this practice.
Can you provide some examples of this particular signal setup because I don't think this is common practice in California... at least in Northern California and I don't ever recall seeing a green ball left of a left turn signal.  If there is an overhead left turn signal, then the pole-mounted signal on the far left corner is also a left turn signal.

Yea I'd like to know where I can find that too haha There's actually ONE spot I know if that's even related to this at all but it's got a right turn arrow. But it's still the only one I've seen like it. Its in LA at the end of Cahuenga Blvd EAST for the right turn onto Barham Blvd
Your local illuminated sign enthusiast

Signs Im looking for: CA only; 1, 2, 14, 118, 134, 170, 210 (CA), and any california city illuminated sign.

SignBridge

#65
Bulkyorled, see my post on this page from 5/13/12 where I gave several Calif. examples of a green ball being postioned to the left of left-turn arrows where the road curves sharply to the right.

Also I just looked at that interesection of Cahuenga Bl. East at Barham Blvd. on Google Earth. The situation we're talking about doesn't exist there, if the view shown is current. There is a right-turn arrow, but no green-ball to the right of it. So...........maybe you misunderstood? 

bulkyorled

I did misunderstand haha I had the imagine in my head of the one at Barham & Cahuenga and went with it. :pan:
Your local illuminated sign enthusiast

Signs Im looking for: CA only; 1, 2, 14, 118, 134, 170, 210 (CA), and any california city illuminated sign.

roadman65

Well, just to say that I have been wrong about NJ having the best timed signals in the nation.  I just rode US 206 from Somerville to Lawrenceville, NJ and almost got nailed at every single signal.    I think NJ has gotten worse in addition to drivers sleeping at the wheel when the light turns green.  The Garden State always had perfectly timed signals on state highways.  I do not know what happened here, but it is not a good drive in this area.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Mr. Matté

Quote from: roadman65 on June 22, 2012, 08:20:40 AM
Well, just to say that I have been wrong about NJ having the best timed signals in the nation.

Not to mention that 63 out of the 85 red light cameras in the state have been temporarily suspended because of possibly mistimed yellow lights...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/nj_slams_the_breaks_on_red-lig.html

1995hoo

#69
We are in Fort Myers on vacation visiting relatives (leaving for Miami this morning) and I've noticed that a couple of traffic lights around here have an odd bright blue light attached to the bottom. Does anyone know what it's for? I haven't been able to get a picture (iPhone camera on a rainy day yesterday wasn't going to help) and I can't do Street View on my phone. But the primary instance I noted of this lighting was at the intersection of Gladiolus Drive and US-41. Even my wife noticed the blue lights and found them odd.


Edited to add: Never mind. The first result when I did a Bing search was a thread on this forum about that issue:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4918.0
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

roadman65

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2012, 08:18:04 AM
We are in Fort Myers on vacation visiting relatives (leaving for Miami this morning) and I've noticed that a couple of traffic lights around here have an odd bright blue light attached to the bottom. Does anyone know what it's for? I haven't been able to get a picture (iPhone camera on a rainy day yesterday wasn't going to help) and I can't do Street View on my phone. But the primary instance I noted of this lighting was at the intersection of Gladiolus Drive and US-41. Even my wife noticed the blue lights and found them odd.


Edited to add: Never mind. The first result when I did a Bing search was a thread on this forum about that issue:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4918.0
Probably the "fink" lights that allow a police officer to see the orientation of the red signal (only goes on when your side is red?) from the side road or from the other direction.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman65

I was noticing in New Jersey in some places rather than the five lens doghouse, they use a four headed tower.  Unlike Illinois where there is a five lens tower with the yellow and green arrows below, these intersections have both the yellow and green arrow through the same lens.

I do not know what changes the color, but the green turns to yellow instead.  Plus, I have not seen it elsewhere.  It must be as new as the flashing yellow arrow.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

signalman

The inline 4 head signals in New Jersey aren't new by any means.  Many of these signals used to have a green only incandescent arrow.  Once dual color LED arrows came out, places began using them in signal installations.  But they've been in use for quite some time now. 

SignBridge

I dislike that New Jersey arrow arrangement, but I guess it saves them money. Seeing the arrow change position as it goes from green to yellow in a conventional signal gives drivers an additional visual aid to observe the change. Especially helpful for drivers who may have any degree of color-blindness. I'm a little surprised at New Jersey. They are usually pretty sharp re: traffic signal installations.

swbrotha100

When did New Jersey start using more of the straight mast arm signals? Nice to see, just don't remember them when I lived there in the 90s.

I've noticed that in living out west, the majority of areas that use left turn arrows or left turn signals have a minimum of two signals, either in the median on a divided road, or the far left overhead and the far left side. Most areas tend to use five head signals for permissive lefts, although in Arizona, the city of Scottsdale and ADOT are trending towards four head signals. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing more of the "doghouse" permissive overhead signals out there.



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