Traffic signal

[Compulov]

Glad to help, and I sincerely hope that's where he was going with his point. 

It was... I was referring to no (right) turn on red during opposing traffic's protected left.

[kphoger]

Opposing traffic or cross traffic?
See, I'm confused again...

[M3019C LPS20]

Opposing traffic or cross traffic?
See, I'm confused again...

Opposing traffic, since there is a protected left turn movement.

Here in New Jersey, I am aware of a couple of signalized intersections in my county that have this movement. Additionally, a motorist on the main drag is allowed to make a right turn on red. Although if the protected left turn movement is activated, then a large sign on the opposing side of the main drag would show "NO TURN ON RED." Once the movement terminates, the message on the sign terminates as well.

[M3019C LPS20]

Classic two-section (red and green) "Mercury signal" at the corner of 5th Avenue and E. 10th Street. Manhattan, New York. 1963. Photograph taken by Kay Simmon Blumberg.

[BamaZeus]

Any idea who the little statue on top is supposed to represent?  Given the downtown location, I wouldn't think it's Columbus.

[M3019C LPS20]

Any idea who the little statue on top is supposed to represent?  Given the downtown location, I wouldn't think it's Columbus.

Statuette of the god Mercury. Thus, the common nickname "Mercury signal."

[BamaZeus]

Ahhhh, good deal.  I didn't know if Mercury was just the name of the manufacturing company or not, or if all those signals had equivalent statues on them.  It's a little before my time.

[M3019C LPS20]

Ahhhh, good deal.  I didn't know if Mercury was just the name of the manufacturing company or not, or if all those signals had equivalent statues on them.  It's a little before my time.

I was not alive to see them as well, but this particular traffic signal was designed by a gentleman by the name of Joseph H. Freelander. He also designed the original traffic control towers that were once on one segment of 5th Avenue from the early 1920s to late 1920s. Like the traffic control towers that Freelander designed, this new set-up was made of bronze as well. It was what actually replaced the traffic control tower in Manhattan, and, from what's known, approximately 104 were installed on one portion of 5th Avenue (from Washington Square to near Central Park). They existed from 1931 to 1964, and, after 1964, most were trashed by New York City's then traffic commissioner Henry Barnes, but some pieces were preserved.

[roadman65]

New type of assembly in Orlando, FL with FOUR signal heads due to the left turn flashing yellow signal head.  Usually you may find some four headed (and even five) with standard left turn signals, but with protected left turns it is rare for now.

This will, no doubt, be the norm for signals to come.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/8701681117/in/photostream/

[roadman65]

Who when making a RTOR, expects someone to be making a u turn.

people who know how to drive.

Usually you look left.

and straight.  oncoming traffic making a left turn may have the protected arrow.  and right, because u-turning traffic may have the right of way - permissive or protected.

and behind you because generally you look at your surroundings. 

I don't want to share the road with unobservant kinds that think "who expects traffic from a less than common direction?" and blow off the idea wholesale?

RTOR is legal over running a red light which is 100 percent illegal!

you mean to say someone ran a red to make the U-turn?  I thought "without waiting for the green arrows to appear" meant that their direction of travel had a green ball.

I doubt anyone's starting to run red lights systematically. 

I am not saying that I do not expect cars from other directions to also cross the path of a RTOR, as I usually look three ways mostly.  I was pointing out at that moment I did not expect it.  In fact that was the first time it happened to me.

Also, running a red arrow is the same as running a red light.  Even if there is a green ball, the red arrow takes precedence over it.  Yeah, its one of those things, but technically he is in position for a ticket still.  Even if I was ruled for the cause of an accident (by the way over 33 years and none  for me except for two that the other drivers were at fault) that does not mean he is exempt from the illegal turn.

Even if you run a STOP sign and hit another car.  You will be cited for the offense of ignoring a traffic control device even if the accident is ruled caused by the guy you hit.  If he runs into you behind the front doors of your car, then in many cases the law considers the other driver at fault even though he had the ROW because that shows that he most definitely had time to stop or swerve out of the way.  Now if I ran the sign and hit the other vehicle in his front, the accident would be my fault and I would be cited myself for two occurences.

I am always careful when someone jumps a side road either a red light, stop sign, etc. as if I hit him in the back , I will be ruled at fault because evidence shows  that I had time to stop.  If you strike another vehicle in the front then, of course, you do not have time to stop.

There are ways indeed you could cause an accident to happen and be free of blame in some instances legally though how it sounds.

[Central Avenue]

The Morse Road corridor in Columbus has some intersections where U-turns are permitted during the protected left phase. During Morse's protected left, the side streets get blank-out NO TURN ON RED signs.

I'm guessing this is because the engineers assume Columbus drivers won't be familiar with the "right turns on red yield to U-turns" rule, since U-turns are prohibited citywide except where posted otherwise.

Also, roadman65, there's been a slight miscommunication. In your initial post you didn't mention that the U-turner had a red arrow, so Jake assumed the intersection had a protected-permissive left turn. That's where the "green ball" confusion came from.

[M3019C LPS20]

Two-section traffic signal cluster from the Marbelite company on a Ruleta pedestal at E. 49th Street and Park Avenue. May, 1971. Manhattan, New York. This is a nice close-up, and I like the perspective as well.

[realjd]

Opposing traffic or cross traffic?
See, I'm confused again...

Opposing traffic, since there is a protected left turn movement.

Here in New Jersey, I am aware of a couple of signalized intersections in my county that have this movement. Additionally, a motorist on the main drag is allowed to make a right turn on red. Although if the protected left turn movement is activated, then a large sign on the opposing side of the main drag would show "NO TURN ON RED." Once the movement terminates, the message on the sign terminates as well.

So the sign actually lights up the words "NO TURN ON RED"? Around here they use light up no right turn signs with red LEDs for the circle with the slash and white LEDs for the right arrow. I'll try to find a picture.

[KEK Inc.]

What about bike signals? 

[M3019C LPS20]

Opposing traffic or cross traffic?
See, I'm confused again...

Opposing traffic, since there is a protected left turn movement.

Here in New Jersey, I am aware of a couple of signalized intersections in my county that have this movement. Additionally, a motorist on the main drag is allowed to make a right turn on red. Although if the protected left turn movement is activated, then a large sign on the opposing side of the main drag would show "NO TURN ON RED." Once the movement terminates, the message on the sign terminates as well.

So the sign actually lights up the words "NO TURN ON RED"? Around here they use light up no right turn signs with red LEDs for the circle with the slash and white LEDs for the right arrow. I'll try to find a picture.

Pretty much so, but I do see the other display that you mentioned in your comment as well. Both are in use at various locations in N.J.

[Billy F 1988]

What about bike signals? 

Those could prove useful in MT. More likely in places like Billings, Helena or Great Falls where there is more cycle traffic in those neighborhoods.

[SignBridge]

Don't know what the law is in Washington State, but in New York, right-on-red-arrow is prohibited by law, though a sign is sometimes also displayed.

[Kacie Jane]

Right on red arrow is legal here.

[SignBridge]

V-e-r-y   i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g...................

[KEK Inc.]

Furthermore, that image is in Portland, OR.  I believe it's also legal in Oregon unless otherwise specified.

[M3019C LPS20]

Don't know what the law is in Washington State, but in New York, right-on-red-arrow is prohibited by law, though a sign is sometimes also displayed.

What I find interesting about some protected turn signals in New York state is that some are composed of four individual sections, and the fourth section (top) is a red ball that is unlit in normal operation. It only flashes when the signalized intersection is in flash mode. This set-up is commonly used for a protected left turn signal; however, such a set-up is used for a right turn signal as well.

I am aware of a couple (protected left turn signals) that exist in Suffern.

[Brandon]

Don't know what the law is in Washington State, but in New York, right-on-red-arrow is prohibited by law, though a sign is sometimes also displayed.

Right on red arrow is legal in Illinois.  It takes a "No Turn On Red" sign to prohibit the movement.  Ditto for left on red arrow.  It takes a "Left Turn on Green Arrow" or "Left Turn Signal" sign to prohibit the movement.

The particular photo seems to have the "No Turn On Red" signage due to the existence of the bicycle lane with its own signals.

[codyg1985]

What about bike signals? 

Isn't that a double negative when the NO TURN ON RED sign lights up? 

It seems like the light up sign is redundant with the permanent NO TURN ON RED sign to the left of the right turn signal.

[thenetwork]

What about bike signals? 

Isn't that a double negative when the NO TURN ON RED sign lights up? 

It seems like the light up sign is redundant with the permanent NO TURN ON RED sign to the left of the right turn signal.

If I pulled up to this intersection, I would see the permanent NTOR sign and assume that for both turn lanes -- regardless of what the light up says or doesn't say. 

If I were the municipality, I would change the permanent sign to read:

NO TURN ON RED
EXCEPT CURB LANE

which I have seen some municipalities use before.

When you throw in the dedicated bicycle lights, now you have a fustercluck of where/when can one turn right on red, and installing too many specific right turn/no turn on red signs will just cause even more confusion. 

The simplest thing I could think could work is a NTOR/ECL in place of the permanent sign, and replacing the 3-segment right turn signal & light up sign with a 4-segment flashing yellow arrow.  The FYA would only be activated when the bicyclists have their green phase.

[kphoger]

If I were on a bicycle, I would still turn right on red.