Should Button Copy Signs Come Back?

Started by Roadmaestro95, April 23, 2012, 08:00:29 PM

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Should the states bring back signage that has button copy letters or should they not?

Yes! Bring back the old-school button copy!
No...keep the signs as is.
Something other than this? (Give opinions below)

Scott5114

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS. 


Not as much as you might think. They're pretty much the lighting of choice over fluorescents these days in slot machines, and probably most other applications. Individual diodes are pretty cheap and don't draw much power since they are much more efficient (cooler).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef


realjd

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 08:07:57 PM
Nah, I've just thought about what futuristic traffic control devices might look like perhaps a bit too much :D

What would be the ultimate is holographic road signs, a la Star Trek...when there's an accident, cones and signage appear out of thin air around the incident...

I suspect that self-driving cars will eliminate the need for highway signage well before we develop technology like that :)

agentsteel53

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 26, 2012, 08:07:57 PM
Nah, I've just thought about what futuristic traffic control devices might look like perhaps a bit too much :D

What would be the ultimate is holographic road signs, a la Star Trek...when there's an accident, cones and signage appear out of thin air around the incident...

or just beam out the offending vehicle.  crashed?  off ya go to the police.  stalled?  off ya go to the repair shop.  40 in a 65 in the fast lane?  off ya go, who cares where.
live from sunny San Diego.

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kphoger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 30, 2012, 06:59:00 PM
40 in a 65 in the fast lane?  off ya go, who cares where.

How about 50 yards to the right?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

bulkyorled

I think the new ones are just fine. I think im slightly turned off by button copy since all of them here you can tell are old and theyre dirty and it doesn't look good. I could care less about it being new. Plus the pieces fall off then it looks a little crummy.
Your local illuminated sign enthusiast

Signs Im looking for: CA only; 1, 2, 14, 118, 134, 170, 210 (CA), and any california city illuminated sign.

CentralCAroadgeek

I would appreciate button copy returning, all I ask for Caltrans is to at least power-wash these signs or something. Otherwise, keep them!

bulkyorled

They even could do a "retro" thing, when I think of Button Copy I think of the 101, or CA 1 for soem reason... put it back on those roadways, but I don't think anyone would really notice unless they put it out there that they're doing retro signage on those routes
Your local illuminated sign enthusiast

Signs Im looking for: CA only; 1, 2, 14, 118, 134, 170, 210 (CA), and any california city illuminated sign.

Crazy Volvo Guy

Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
Unfortunately, this is an impossibility. Button copy is no longer manufactured.

Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.
I hate Clearview, because it looks like a cheap Chinese ripoff.

I'm for the Red Sox and whoever's playing against the Yankees.

Scott5114

Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on July 15, 2012, 10:34:37 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2012, 09:40:42 PM
Unfortunately, this is an impossibility. Button copy is no longer manufactured.

Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.

But the plastic letters with holes in them for the buttons aren't manufactured.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

roadman

#34
Button copy on Engineer Grade (ASTM Type I), Super Engineer Grade (ASTM Type II) and Encapsulated Lens High Intensity (ASTM Type III) background never had any contrast problems.  It's when you get into the prismatic sheetings (ASTM Type IV, VIII, IX, and the pending XI) that you run into problems with the background washing out the button legends.

I've heard this is the reason that, when the signs on the MassPike were last updated in the mid-1990s, button copy was used only on the signs on the Extension.  The story goes that, after the projects were awarded and work was underway on the Extension, the Turnpike Authority changed the contract specifications to call for Type IV prismatic sheeting (instead of Type III) for sign backgrounds.  A number of "button copy on Type IV background" signs were installed, and the "why can't I read the new signs at night" complaints started coming in almost immediately.

Shortly thereafter, the Authority amended their specification yet again to call for Type IV legend on Type IV background, and the era of button copy on the Pike (except for those signs installed on the Extension) came to a close.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Alps

Quote from: roadman on July 16, 2012, 09:51:23 AM
Button copy on Engineer Grade (ASTM Type I), Super Engineer Grade (ASTM Type II) and Encapsulated Lens High Intensity (ASTM Type III) background never had any contrast problems.  It's when you get into the prismatic sheetings (ASTM Type IV, VIII, IX, and the pending XI) that you run into problems with the background washing out the button legends.

I've heard this is the reason that, when the signs on the MassPike were last updated in the mid-1990s, button copy was used only on the signs on the Extension.  The story goes that, after the projects were awarded and work was underway on the Extension, the Turnpike Authority changed the contract specifications to call for Type IV prismatic sheeting (instead of Type III) for sign backgrounds.  A number of "button copy on Type IV background" signs were installed, and the "why can't I read the new signs at night" complaints started coming in almost immediately.

Shortly thereafter, the Authority amended their specification yet again to call for Type IV legend on Type IV background, and the era of button copy on the Pike (except for those signs installed on the Extension) came to a close.
It wouldn't be the case, perchance, that many/most/all of the button copy east of 128 was in fact Type IV background? Because that shit washes out like chalk on a Cincinnati sidewalk.

agentsteel53

I'm pretty sure I've seen some pretty illegible button copy on Type III.  Connecticut comes to mind.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

agentsteel53

Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on July 15, 2012, 10:34:37 PM


Not like it'd be hard for production to be resumed.  Reflective buttons of all different colors, shapes and sizes, including small, round white ones are still manufactured.

I'd like to know where.  I do not know of the small sizes (smaller than #1 size, which is 15/16") being currently made.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

roadman

Quote from: Steve on July 16, 2012, 07:31:19 PM

It wouldn't be the case, perchance, that many/most/all of the button copy east of 128 was in fact Type IV background? Because that shit washes out like chalk on a Cincinnati sidewalk.

It was my understanding that the majority of the signs east of Interstate 95 were indeed fabricated with button copy on Type III background.  I suspect that much of the wash-out problem may have more to do with a combination of the external illumination on the signs and the age of the signs (similar to the current situation with the old button copy signs on the S.E. Expressway) than the background sheeting. 
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Crazy Volvo Guy

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 16, 2012, 12:39:46 AMBut the plastic letters with holes in them for the buttons aren't manufactured.

If they were able to come up with them from scratch in the 1950s, they can most certainly come up with them from scratch again.
I hate Clearview, because it looks like a cheap Chinese ripoff.

I'm for the Red Sox and whoever's playing against the Yankees.

Dr Frankenstein

I really like the appearance of button copy (especially Connecticut!) at night, and I would definitely advocate for LED copy. Heck, even on Clearview!

vtk

Bring back button copy, or make a new E(M) lettering that's only retroreflective in the centers of the strokes, to a width equivalent to the old reflective buttons.

Or, you know, just switch to Series E with interletter spacing so it takes up as much space as E(M).
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

bing101


jon daly

#43
Quote from: hbelkins on April 24, 2012, 10:15:38 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on April 24, 2012, 04:58:15 PM
I'm one of the only people who actually likes the Connecticut button copy. Sure it sucks to read at night, but it was different.

I like it, too. And I had no problems with the newer button copy signage when I drove most of I-95 at night a couple of years ago. The hardest signs to read were the ones that didn't reflect, not those that did.

There disappearing from my area right now. I find them aesthetically pleasing, but signage is more form over function for me. I can navigate without much help from signs.

UCFKnights

Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS.
I personally am hoping for an LED solution. Florida's been phasing out our lighted street signs for years (which I find a bit ironic as at the same time they have been steadily going more heavily into the backlit street blades) and I'll miss them.

The refelective signs need replacement every 7 years. If LEDs continue to come down in price as they've been doing and increase in reliability, it very well could cost less to have LED signs. I know a while back I was looking at fast-food style menu boards and apparently the LED LCD screens were both far cheaper to install and far cheaper to operate, on top of all the other more obvious advantages.

US 89

We just revived a 6 year old thread.

Quote from: UCFKnights on June 02, 2018, 09:41:06 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 27, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
LEDs are expensive...  I don't see how it would be feasible to have LED BGS.
I personally am hoping for an LED solution. Florida's been phasing out our lighted street signs for years (which I find a bit ironic as at the same time they have been steadily going more heavily into the backlit street blades) and I'll miss them.

The refelective signs need replacement every 7 years. If LEDs continue to come down in price as they've been doing and increase in reliability, it very well could cost less to have LED signs. I know a while back I was looking at fast-food style menu boards and apparently the LED LCD screens were both far cheaper to install and far cheaper to operate, on top of all the other more obvious advantages.

Why do reflective signs have to be replaced every 7 years? Do they just lose their reflectiveness over time?

I don’t think we can make the jump and say we’ll have LED signs in the future, because we have to take into account that there are likely going to be advances in reflective technology as well as LEDs. Surely a better, longer-lasting reflecting material will be developed in the future. Plus I don’t think I’d want LED signs anyway. What if the power goes out? It would probably cost a shit ton of money for every single BGS to have a backup battery.

Button copy is only cool because it’s old and they don’t install it anymore, which makes it a rare find. If every road had tons of button copy on it, I don’t think we’d care. Today’s reflective signs are so much more readable than button copy at night. Of course, the rate at which button copy signs are disappearing is the reason it’s so cool to find one (especially in a state like Utah, which replaces signage like there’s no tomorrow). I’m aware of a grand total of two button copy signs left in Utah, although there are probably more hiding around somewhere.

hbelkins

Certain states have to replace their reflective signage more often than others. It has to do with temperature and exposure to the sun, if I'm not mistaken.

Kentucky has some quite old signage on its interstates and parkways. A sign replacement project was done on I-64 east of Winchester about 20 years ago, and those signs are in pretty good shape.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Pink Jazz

I heard somewhere that Type XI sheeting is supposed to have a longer life than other sheeting types, combined with the benefits of both Type VIII and IX.

tolbs17


jbnv

I'm pretty sure everybody in this forum knows what a button-copy sign looks like.
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