PA Turnpike News

[qguy]

I think back to how much time was wasted waiting on line to pay the tolls in the cash-only era.

The dramatic time savings is experienced by commuters.

When the PA Turnpike instituted EZPass, I had been using the road to commute to my work at the PennDOT District 6-0 office. There was somewhat of a backup getting on the Turnpike, but the real backup was waiting in line to exit, especially at the Valley Forge toll Plaza every morning. The backups virtually evaporated when EZPass became operational (after two or three days for drivers to get used to the new setup).

Including the traffic delays getting on and off in both directions, morning and evening, I estimated at the time that I gained an extra half hour with my family every day. That's significant right there, but add that up over the course of a year and you've got a huge difference.

[tylert120]

The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.

[kalvado]

2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

How much f'ing time does it take you to mount the EZ Pass that this could possibly have been thought of as an excuse?

Even if you have to get the Front License Plate mount transponder, due to windshield/car issues with having it inside the glass, it STILL saves time over 1 rush hour wait at a Cash Only booth. It doesn't take that long to find a screwdriver, unscrew two screws, and then tighten them back down

I remember as a kid, sitting in extremely long holiday waits at the 82nd/83rd St and 163rd St Tolls on ISTHA's Tri-State. Guess what? Even when Low Speed I-Pass Only lanes were first installed at 82nd/83rd St, and then at 163 St, it made a difference. When the I-Pass Express/ORT conversion occurred, it was a night and day difference compared to Cash only tolling

It does take time - and sometimes money - to dispute a billing mistake. A lot of time, sometimes.

[ARMOURERERIC]

The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.

Was it built to carry 6 lanes?

[J N Winkler]

Thank you vdeane for those good points! All of you have made good points too. It's worth noting however that some of the time saved on the road with E-Z Pass is lost in other ways.

1) Setting up your account, passwords etc.

2) Mounting the device on your car. Having to get new mounting strips when you get a new car.

3) Checking your statement when you receive it. Potential billing errors requiring corrective action, etc.

I was fortunate that most of my long distance toll-road trips thru the years were made mid-week/mid-day so luckily I didn't encounter many toll plaza back-ups, so I don't have those bad memories. And yeah, I have to agree it's nice to just glide thru those express E-Z Pass lanes where they exist. But being an old school kind of guy, I just preferred the older less complicated ways.

I have used toll roads in what is now E-ZPass territory only for leisure travel.  My heaviest use of them was over 20 years ago, when traffic volumes were significantly lower and before electronic toll payment options existed on any significant scale, let alone ones offering interoperability among agencies.  Yet I can remember a single Fourth of July backup at the mainline toll plaza on the Delaware Turnpike that ate up more time than I later spent ordering an I-Pass, mounting it, setting up an Illinois Tollway account, and archiving my transaction history (I have never had to dispute an E-ZPass transaction, which is not at all the case with my K-Tag account, where I am aware of at least two errors and would probably find more if I ever did a full audit).

While I suspect the auditing burden is probably higher for commuters than for leisure travellers owing to there being more transactions to keep track of, the time savings at toll plazas are probably higher because of the reduced flexibility to schedule travel away from peak periods.  My experience suggests that a transponder becomes more trouble than it is worth only for agencies that process a low volume of transactions and use poorly calibrated equipment, which I suspect is the case with the Kansas Turnpike.  E-ZPass is very reliable partly because it has been around for about 20 years, so it is technologically mature, and low-volume agencies benefit from standards designed to accommodate the reliability needs of the New Jersey Turnpike and other agencies that handle extremely high levels of commuter traffic.

Mind you, I have long opposed E-ZPass becoming the basis of a national interoperability standard, but this is only because of its reliance on active transponders.  As long as the batteries have juice . . . it just works.

[jeffandnicole]

I wonder how many people forgo credit cards and their benefits and just use cash.  Hopefully no one goes thru the pain of ever using checks, since that requires time to order and record everything in a check register.  Hell, that requires a bank account.  What if you found extra money taken out of your account?  That's gonna take time to sort out.  Maybe you all don't even use computers and just write letters, saving the time of having to plug in the keyboard.

Anyway, billing mistakes can happen anywhere.  Narrowing it down to just electronic tolling is micro nitpicking of it.

BTW, I should point out that even before EZ Pass and electronic tolling, Cash still wasn't the only option.  At the DRPA Bridges, you could pay for a UPC scan sticker on the side window to receive a discount on tolls.  The Rt. 40 Bridge in Maryland still had these up until relatively recently, and you'll occasionally find an older car with the sticker still stuck on the window.  The Del. Memorial Bridge would sell books of tickets that give an discount.  The Garden State Parkway and other authorities had tokens that netted a discount. 

So don't forget the history of tolling - discounts were still available, and other methods to pay existed.  And not only that, but with many of these methods if you didn't utilize them to the full potential, you may have even lost money.  And you certainly lost time too.

[ilpt4u]

Not sure about the other EZ Pass agencies, but ISTHA has cash options for I-Pass. Either stop at the I-Pass service centers at ISTHA HQ in Downers Grove or at the I-Pass service centers at the Oases and buy an I-Pass "gift card" /replinishment card with cash. Those cards can also be purchased at Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicagoland area, and purchased with cash

Then you have to call the 800 number or log into your account on the getipass.com website to have the value of the card added to your transponder account

Yes, it adds more steps. But Cash travel is still available via this process, no CC required

[jeffandnicole]

Not sure about the other EZ Pass agencies, but ISTHA has cash options for I-Pass. Either stop at the I-Pass service centers at ISTHA HQ in Downers Grove or at the I-Pass service centers at the Oases and buy an I-Pass "gift card" /replinishment card with cash. Those cards can also be purchased at Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicagoland area, and purchased with cash

Then you have to call the 800 number or log into your account on the getipass.com website to have the value of the card added to your transponder account

Yes, it adds more steps. But Cash travel is still available via this process, no CC required

This can be done in EZ Pass land as well; the methods and locations vary by state.

[kalvado]

Anyway, billing mistakes can happen anywhere.  Narrowing it down to just electronic tolling is micro nitpicking of it.

Billing mistakes can happen anywhere, including issues with lost ticket on a cash toll. Problem is that EZpass family used to be one of the worst vendors to fix such mistakes. Being quazi-government agencies allowed them to be very heavy-handed without a path to hold the agency responsible.   Looks like they improved, my last billing error was resolved with a single e-mail, though. 

On a grand scheme of things, I have two issues in terms of business ethics:
- EZpass  fails to give out any confirmation of transaction until days, sometimes weeks later.
- being able to close AET transaction on a spot is a must for infrequent user - tourist etc. Online pre-payment is a tolerable, but not the best option.

My impression is that both of these are not real technical problems, but a deliberate attempt to screw people.
Toll collection in general is begging to be heavily regulated under the interstate commerce clause - and when toll agencies are screwed, I would say they brought harsh regulation on themselves.

[Rothman]

My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.

[74/171FAN]

My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.

I have heard that this is an issue on the I-495 and I-95 HOT Lanes the one time I drove them.  I am unsure if that is still the case.

[J N Winkler]

My transactions pop up online very quickly, so I don't know about this idea that it takes days or weeks to see them.  Perhaps if you're only sitting around waiting for a paper statement?  That'd be odd for someone who purchases an E-ZPass, which requires the account to be filled to be tolled against.

My experience suggests that reliability is a function of maturity in both technology and back-office procedure that builds up with time and transaction volume.  I've never had a problem with any of the E-ZPass agencies whose infrastructure I have used (Illinois Tollway, Ohio Turnpike, and New York Thruway).  On the other hand, with a passive RFID sticker-type tag for the KS/OK/TX interoperability area, I've had transactions post right away for OTA and NTTA, but delays of as long as a week for the Kansas Turnpike (KTA still uses gated electronic toll lanes; the other agencies got rid of them years ago).

I do not get paper statements from any toll agency.  The posting delays I see are all online.

[jeffandnicole]

Not that I usually look, but my EZ Pass transactions are all posted within a few days at the very most.

If someone is waiting weeks to see a transaction posted, that indicated more of an issue with their own account and not a system-wide issue.

I always think of EZ Pass like a Visa or Mastercard.  If you have an issue with a transaction, it's not "Visa" that has the issue, it's the card company you hold the card with (Chase, Capital One, etc).  And it's not that ALL Visa transactions take forever to post; it's almost always a localized issue with either the person's account, or maybe the store where the transactions occurred.

So, before you go thinking that the entire industry countrywide is screwing people over, maybe just check to make sure your tag is working properly...

[kalvado]

Not that I usually look, but my EZ Pass transactions are all posted within a few days at the very most.

If someone is waiting weeks to see a transaction posted, that indicated more of an issue with their own account and not a system-wide issue.

I always think of EZ Pass like a Visa or Mastercard.  If you have an issue with a transaction, it's not "Visa" that has the issue, it's the card company you hold the card with (Chase, Capital One, etc).  And it's not that ALL Visa transactions take forever to post; it's almost always a localized issue with either the person's account, or maybe the store where the transactions occurred.

So, before you go thinking that the entire industry countrywide is screwing people over, maybe just check to make sure your tag is working properly...

Great points - this is exactly where differences are!
Banks are federally regulated. Toll roads seem to be completely unregulated.
Credit card transaction is put on hold after one phone call and bank starts investigating. Toll road billing issue is up to you to prove.
In case of read problems, credit card is in the mail the same day - they refused to replace a problematic tag for me ("it reads OK on a test station"). Got replaced a year later after 10 year battery lifetime exchange

As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.

[J N Winkler]

As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.

How did these errors make themselves evident?  Are we talking wrong classification, wrong entry or exit, or . . . ?

My problems with KTA have all involved wrong entry/exit.  I've had one toll from OTA that was marked as "irregular" and one toll gate transit in Illinois where the light flashed yellow instead of blue for a new transponder but the toll posted normally (no video toll).

[kalvado]

As for read confirmation - "successful read" signal is implemented on chip level, but not used on a tag level. You never know when, or if, your tag is read. Which is, I believe, the only situation when money are deducted from the account without me being explicitly informed about it. Which is IMHO a problematic approach. I certainly don't want to log into account after each trip to check for billing errors. I had 4 so far that I know of, more than what I had over the same period on credit cards which I use much more often.

How did these errors make themselves evident?  Are we talking wrong classification, wrong entry or exit, or . . . ?

My problems with KTA have all involved wrong entry/exit.  I've had one toll from OTA that was marked as "irregular" and one toll gate transit in Illinois where the light flashed yellow instead of blue for a new transponder but the toll posted normally (no video toll).

I had a toll billed on a then-toll free stretch of Masspike. It wasn't a lot, like 45 cents - that is 45 cents more than it should be. The only way to appeal a toll at that point was by sending a physical letter - and stamp cost was 42 cents or so.
I had an entry read not matched to the exit read, and a full Thruway toll charged on a two-exit dash.
I had a faulty read with "please call" message, calling - noone in the office. A full-length toll was charged - a month or so later, billed by the license plate -  IN ADDITION to correct EZpass toll charged to account next day. Of course, I saw a toll going through and didn't call for the second time. Took a while to get settled. including some pretty exotic customer service experience ("agent who had your file no longer works for us, you have to re-send all the documents again!")

So my overall EZpass experience is... less than great.

[SignBridge]

Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

[jmacswimmer]

I had a toll billed on a then-toll free stretch of Masspike. It wasn't a lot, like 45 cents - that is 45 cents more than it should be. The only way to appeal a toll at that point was by sending a physical letter - and stamp cost was 42 cents or so.

I also had a Masspike screwup once - I entered at Sturbridge and continued all the way to Boston, and it split up the 84-to-95/128 charge into an entry at gantry 83 +  exit at gantry 109, and entry at gantry 104 + exit at gantry 120, which meant I essentially got double-charged at gantries 104 & 109. Which amounted to an 80-cent overcharge, so I also decided it wasn't worth the time or hassle to fight.

Otherwise, my E-ZPass track record has been pretty good thus far - it's interesting noticing the different lag times between agencies. NJTA often posts the same day, PTC is always 2-3 days, whereas MassDOT took a week the first time I used the Pike with E-ZPass. MDTA (which is who I have my account thru) took a whole month on a few Tydings Bridge charges earlier this year, but I suspect this may have been because MDTA had recently upgraded its tolling hardware at the time.

[Gnutella]

The turnpike bridge replacement over PA 380 Saltsburg road in Plum borough is in the final phase. PA 380 is closed for the next 30 days or so while final work wraps up.

Was it built to carry 6 lanes?

Actually, PA 380/Saltsburg Road passes over the Turnpike, and yes, the Turnpike will be widened to six lanes. Preparatory work is being done all along the segment from MM 49 to MM 67, which extends from Oakmont Country Club to the U.S. 30/Irwin interchange. That's the most heavily-traveled segment of Turnpike in western Pennsylvania, passing through the eastern suburbs of Pittsburgh. Once that segment is widened, the Turnpike will be six lanes from I-79 to the I-70 west junction, except a small segment near MM 39 that requires a long bridge replacement and an interchange reconfiguration.

[kalvado]

Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that

[J N Winkler]

Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that

The time cost of disputing erroneous tolls is the main reason I haven't challenged a misattributed entry point that resulted in me paying about a dollar more in toll, let alone performed a full audit of all of my toll transactions (which I can do because I have GPS logs showing where my car actually travelled).  But it is not just the extra cost of a specific transaction that is at stake:  it is also the possibility of paying much more through future instances of the same error.

I have been thinking more in terms of activism.  Going before the supervisory board is one way to stand on agency leadership's toes.  The New York Thruway Authority meets once every two months and every meeting has a public comment period; judging from recent meeting minutes, nobody shows up to offer comment.  If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.

[jeffandnicole]

[If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.

No it won't.

They're hearing from one person regarding a possible single issue, or hearsay about other people's issues, in which the person speaking probably has no proof the toll authority was in the wrong.  The public comment period is for people to voice their concerns or issues. Rarely will something be investigated.

If you want investigation, file a lawsuit.

[kalvado]

Kalvado, I wouldn't even bother disputing any toll charge under a couple of dollars. I agree that it is a matter of principle, but in my opinion just not worth the effort, aggravation and TIME.

Full length Thruway charge is now $17, plus they can happily add something on top of that

The time cost of disputing erroneous tolls is the main reason I haven't challenged a misattributed entry point that resulted in me paying about a dollar more in toll, let alone performed a full audit of all of my toll transactions (which I can do because I have GPS logs showing where my car actually travelled).  But it is not just the extra cost of a specific transaction that is at stake:  it is also the possibility of paying much more through future instances of the same error.

I have been thinking more in terms of activism.  Going before the supervisory board is one way to stand on agency leadership's toes.  The New York Thruway Authority meets once every two months and every meeting has a public comment period; judging from recent meeting minutes, nobody shows up to offer comment.  If someone does and gives the board members an earful about electronic toll reliability issues, that will really make people sit up and pay attention.

Problem is, there is no leverage. At least for NY Thruway authority - it is somewhere between government and private - it is non-government enough not to care about elections, but government enough not to care about BBB and all that.  On the contrary, their leverage is huge. NY law allows toll agencies to suspend vehicle registration over unpaid tolls - no court, no due process. It is on you to prove what the issue is and resolve it.

So I'm afraid federal regulation is the only thing which can straighten things up.

[J N Winkler]

No it won't.

They're hearing from one person regarding a possible single issue, or hearsay about other people's issues, in which the person speaking probably has no proof the toll authority was in the wrong.  The public comment period is for people to voice their concerns or issues. Rarely will something be investigated.

If you want investigation, file a lawsuit.

Problem is, there is no leverage. At least for NY Thruway authority - it is somewhere between government and private - it is non-government enough not to care about elections, but government enough not to care about BBB and all that.  On the contrary, their leverage is huge. NY law allows toll agencies to suspend vehicle registration over unpaid tolls - no court, no due process. It is on you to prove what the issue is and resolve it.

So I'm afraid federal regulation is the only thing which can straighten things up.

I speak from experience as a member of a board, in this case one that supervises a public library system that operates as a department within city government and where the board members are appointed by members of the city council (each council member getting two appointments).  From time to time we have people come before our board to offer public comment, and each time there is investigation and follow-up.  Admittedly, this can take the form of a determination that there is no hidden iceberg of public concern that lines up with what we hear from the commenters.  But when we do, or allow to be done, something that is really controversial, such that members of the public attend our meetings in large numbers (usually we and senior library management are the only ones in the room), there is a queue of people waiting to comment, the public comment agenda takes up half or more of the usual meeting slot, and there are TV cameras and newspaper reporters present, you'd better believe we sit up and pay attention.

We had to deal with this kind of focused activism when we nodded through a proposal to hold a program modelled on Drag Queen Story Hour.  We resisted calls to fire the library director and to institute a programming policy that would forbid the holding of LGBT-themed events in the future.  (The policy we did adopt incorporates American Library Association guidance, which various commenters decried as "progressive.")  However, we did respond to further lobbying by adopting a policy that requires program presenters to be background-checked against the national sex offender registry and the state registry for violent offenders.

So I am not actually suggesting that activism be confined to showing up at a Thruway Authority meeting by oneself.  Organizing, starting by making contact with others who have had similar billing problems, is one way to build leverage.  And going to Authority meetings is just one fork.  Another is to lobby members of the state legislature to take away the Authority's ability to block registration renewals (wasn't a bill to that effect introduced in response to early teething pains with pay-by-mail?).

[kalvado]

I speak from experience as a member of a board,

I would say the main difference between your experience and NYSTA is that library board takes declared  mission at face value, even if if there is a conflict of  different approaches -  vs. NYSTA, where I would expect things to be less straightforward.
And there is awareness of tolling issues - as I just found out, several agencies (PANYNJ, NYSTA) established Offices of the Toll Payer Advocate as a way to deal with those concerns. This is a step forward - but it basically means that resolution of possible issues is a goodwill thing for the agency, no leverage is given to drivers.
There are also legislative efforts - not to cancel authority right to suspend registrations, but to make sure people are at least fully aware of the situation.

But again - these are mere details explaining why I am not comfortable with the existing situation. The root issues, I believe are still the same - lack of expedite feedback about toll transactions and amounts (especially for non-EZPass users) and lack of ability to settle the transaction on a spot. Which can, and sometimes does, make billing process non-transparent - and then issues have to be resolved with a new office.