L.A. proposals for congestion pricing, tolls, and carpool revision

[sparker]

L.A. Metro's been busy!  They're considering (a) congestion pricing on freeways and/or central city streets as well as potentially tolling regional freeways (someone's been reading the CityLab playbook).  Read all about the congestion/toll proposals:

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pay-to-drive-20190122-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter

And this was broken by our own Mercury-News, even though it's proposed for a L.A. freeway:  Metro is thinking of raising the carpool minimum to 5 occupants rather than the current 3 on the I-10 express lanes east of downtown.  Here's the article:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/01/21/los-angeles-proposal-raise-carpool-threshold-to-five-people/

Countdown to backlash:  ten...nine...eight.........................

[jeffandnicole]

I'd suspect they'll roll it back to 4 people in the car.  Otherwise, they'd basically be encouraging the purchase of larger vehicles that eat up more gas.

[mrsman]

Where else are there HOV 4+?  I am unaware of such restriction, but it would be amazing.

HOV 5+ would probably be too hard to make work and I don't think it will ever happen.  For all intents in purposes an HOT 5+ lane is toll for everyone except transit buses.

[jeffandnicole]

Where else are there HOV 4+?  I am unaware of such restriction, but it would be amazing.

HOV 5+ would probably be too hard to make work and I don't think it will ever happen.  For all intents in purposes an HOT 5+ lane is toll for everyone except transit buses.

Commuter vans.

When there's been transit strikes in the NYC area, many of the bridges/tunnels have been temporary HOV-4 during rush hour, and it's heavily enforced.  I think fewer than HOV-4 is forced onto the GWB during those times.

There was a HOV-4 in the DC area before being rolled back as well.

[AsphaltPlanet]

Some of that seems (to me at least) city planners throwing ideas to the wall and seeing if any of them stick.

[vdeane]

I-66 inside the beltway was also HOV-4 when it first opened.

[cahwyguy]

Just a note on HOV-4. I operate a vanpool for LA's Metro, through Enterprise Rideshare (now "Commute with Enterprise"). They are worse than VRide/VPSI was, but that's a different discussion. We have a 7 passenger van. Although we require 70% ridership to start the van, we need to maintain a 55% ridership to keep our Metro subsidy ($500/month -- a big deal to us). That's 4 riders. That means that, given that a 7 passenger vanpool is their minimum for the program, HOV-4 would be the likely size. [Technically, we're not supposed to run with 3 or less, but that happens some days]

There's also the fact that the transponders are 1, 2, 3 or more, making enforcement hard.

Our van commutes daily from Northridge to El Segundo, leaving at 530a in the morning, getting into Aerospace at around 7am. We leave at 330pm, and get back to my house (the start of the route) around 5-530p. I typically sleep in the morning, and drive in the afternoons (2 months out of three). Lowers my insurance, and with the subsidy and what I get from my employer, pay nothing to commute to work (we get reimbursed for our vanpool costs, up to $255/month). Our route uses the 405, so we don't have a transponder.

[The Ghostbuster]

If there are any urban areas I think needs widespread congestion pricing, Los Angeles would be high on that list. It has some of the worst traffic in the entire country.

[mrsman]

Just a note on HOV-4. I operate a vanpool for LA's Metro, through Enterprise Rideshare (now "Commute with Enterprise"). They are worse than VRide/VPSI was, but that's a different discussion. We have a 7 passenger van. Although we require 70% ridership to start the van, we need to maintain a 55% ridership to keep our Metro subsidy ($500/month -- a big deal to us). That's 4 riders. That means that, given that a 7 passenger vanpool is their minimum for the program, HOV-4 would be the likely size. [Technically, we're not supposed to run with 3 or less, but that happens some days]

There's also the fact that the transponders are 1, 2, 3 or more, making enforcement hard.

Our van commutes daily from Northridge to El Segundo, leaving at 530a in the morning, getting into Aerospace at around 7am. We leave at 330pm, and get back to my house (the start of the route) around 5-530p. I typically sleep in the morning, and drive in the afternoons (2 months out of three). Lowers my insurance, and with the subsidy and what I get from my employer, pay nothing to commute to work (we get reimbursed for our vanpool costs, up to $255/month). Our route uses the 405, so we don't have a transponder.

Good for you.  I feel that it's too hard to carpool as you are tied to a schedule.  On days when you have doctor appointment or events for kids school, do you opt out and drive your own car or simply take off the whole day?

I know that the commute is brutal.

Nexus 5X

[Beltway]

I-66 inside the beltway was also HOV-4 when it first opened.

So was I-95 and I-395 Shirley Highway.

[djsekani]

If there are any urban areas I think needs widespread congestion pricing, Los Angeles would be high on that list. It has some of the worst traffic in the entire country.

There are few good alternatives to driving, even with the congestion. Most public transit takes two to three times as long, and when your drive takes over an hour, the idea of a 2.5 hour transit commute (one-way) isn't appealing to everyone. Even the HOV lanes tend to get clogged, and about a third of the vehicles in them are just cheating the system anyway thanks to lax enforcement.

[mgk920]

If there are any urban areas I think needs widespread congestion pricing, Los Angeles would be high on that list. It has some of the worst traffic in the entire country.

There are few good alternatives to driving, even with the congestion. Most public transit takes two to three times as long, and when your drive takes over an hour, the idea of a 2.5 hour transit commute (one-way) isn't appealing to everyone. Even the HOV lanes tend to get clogged, and about a third of the vehicles in them are just cheating the system anyway thanks to lax enforcement.

They'd essentially have to reconstruct the old Pacific Electric 'Red Car' system and put it on super-steroids to make anything like that work.

Mike

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
Don't think that idea hasn't crossed the paths of pretty much everyone involved in greater L.A. transportation circles -- the Expo LR line follows the last P.E. operational line across west L.A.; much of the Metrorail San Bernardino line follows the old P.E. ROW in the San Gabriel Valley, and the Long Beach LR line -- the first one to be done -- duplicates most of the original P.E. Long Beach line.  And the proposed SF Valley extensions follow most of the old Chandler-Van Nuys-Parthenia-Sepulveda "Big Red" line out toward Northridge and San Fernando.  And if not P.E., the Gold Line extensions track the old Santa Fe Pasadena Division out as far as Montclair (as well as mostly follow that original "Super Chief" line from downtown L.A. out to Pasadena).  Simply a case of "past meets present meets future!"

[cahwyguy]

On days when you have doctor appointment or events for kids school, do you opt out and drive your own car or simply take off the whole day?

Typically, when I have a doctors appointment, I work from home that day (my work permits that -- I do cybersecurity). My kid is in grad school in Wisconsin, so that's not a factor. More significantly, if a meeting runs late, I can get a rental car from work or take the LADOT 574 bus and the Uber (company would pay for the rental car), and I have occasionally days -- usually when I have a full day conference offsite -- that I'll drive in.

[skluth]

It's been a while since congestion pricing was last discussed, but I don't feel like starting a new topic. Anyway, it looks like there's a new push to try implementing this again. I'd personally only be inconvenienced as the discussed plans would rarely affect me, but I know some here drive these routes regularly.

LA Daily News
Time Out

[Max Rockatansky]

Why not just put out tax incentives to businesses that schedule their operations slightly off shift to the normal 9-5 PM work day?  Hitting employees who largely don't control when they are scheduled seems to be counterintuitive towards reducing traffic congestion as a quality of life thing and more a cash grab. 

[sparker]

Why not just put out tax incentives to businesses that schedule their operations slightly off shift to the normal 9-5 PM work day?  Hitting employees who largely don't control when they are scheduled seems to be counterintuitive towards reducing traffic congestion as a quality of life thing and more a cash grab. 

That's one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations.  When I was working out in Ontario (2003-10), most of the distribution facilities down there ran 24/7, generally with three shifts per day -- but they also seemed to make it a point to not schedule a shift change right around peak commute times whenever possible -- usually 1:30pm-2pm, 9:30pm-10pm, and 5:30am-6am.  The early morning shift did impinge upon the overall morning commute a bit, but it couldn't be helped.   The afternoon shift change was implemented at that general time of day so at least one parent could be home when the kids got out of school (something requested by the workers themselves -- possibly in lieu of unionization efforts); the rest of the shift changes fell into place as a result.  But the end result was to start the afternoon rush early; by 2:30 both I-10 and I-15 were packed -- generally in all directions (my office was 1/2 mile from the junction).  And that was 11+ years ago; the chances of the situation having improved since then would be practically nil.  And it wasn't just one or two distribution centers that adopted that particular schedule -- it became the default for the myriad facilities in the Inland Empire.   So for the last 15+ years the regional afternoon commute has started around 2pm and extends to about 7:30-8pm -- original good intentions notwithstanding! 

[jdbx]

Why not just put out tax incentives to businesses that schedule their operations slightly off shift to the normal 9-5 PM work day?  Hitting employees who largely don't control when they are scheduled seems to be counterintuitive towards reducing traffic congestion as a quality of life thing and more a cash grab. 

You make an excellent point.  With all the lip-service that Sacramento seems to be paying towards "equity" in the community, congestion pricing like this seems completely regressive.  The workers with the least flexibility in their schedule are usually the least paid ones as well.  Conversely, the people most likely to be able to work from home or set their own hours tend to be at the upper end of wage earners.

[Max Rockatansky]

Why not just put out tax incentives to businesses that schedule their operations slightly off shift to the normal 9-5 PM work day?  Hitting employees who largely don't control when they are scheduled seems to be counterintuitive towards reducing traffic congestion as a quality of life thing and more a cash grab. 

That's one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations.  When I was working out in Ontario (2003-10), most of the distribution facilities down there ran 24/7, generally with three shifts per day -- but they also seemed to make it a point to not schedule a shift change right around peak commute times whenever possible -- usually 1:30pm-2pm, 9:30pm-10pm, and 5:30am-6am.  The early morning shift did impinge upon the overall morning commute a bit, but it couldn't be helped.   The afternoon shift change was implemented at that general time of day so at least one parent could be home when the kids got out of school (something requested by the workers themselves -- possibly in lieu of unionization efforts); the rest of the shift changes fell into place as a result.  But the end result was to start the afternoon rush early; by 2:30 both I-10 and I-15 were packed -- generally in all directions (my office was 1/2 mile from the junction).  And that was 11+ years ago; the chances of the situation having improved since then would be practically nil.  And it wasn't just one or two distribution centers that adopted that particular schedule -- it became the default for the myriad facilities in the Inland Empire.   So for the last 15+ years the regional afternoon commute has started around 2pm and extends to about 7:30-8pm -- original good intentions notwithstanding!

Yeah I vaguely recall that was a problem when I was working in the area myself 2007-09 and 2011-13.  It probably/possibly would work better in areas that maybe are more white collar oriented. 

[Occidental Tourist]

Nothing like regressive taxes to fix transit planning shortsightedness.  My gardener and my housekeeper will be the people affected by this; me not so much.  If I have to pay a toll to occasionally drive to Downtown, I'll just pass the cost along to my clients.

[Max Rockatansky]

A question that also pops into my mind is; will things like congestion pricing be necessary post COVID?  I'm just shooting from the hip with this thought but I would have to imagine the traffic volume is still greatly affected by things like people working from home nowadays.  I would imagine that at least in the white collar world that kind of thing (working from home) is going to be way more common even after all the Virus restrictions disappear. 

Either way with the push to sell only electric passenger vehicles in California by 2035 I would imagine that things like; congestion pricing, tolls and mileage taxes are being looked at seriously across the board.  Something will have to replace the gas tax as a revenue generator.   

[kphoger]

I would have to imagine the traffic volume is still greatly affected by things like people working from home nowadays.  I would imagine that at least in the white collar world that kind of thing (working from home) is going to be way more common even after all the Virus restrictions disappear.

And those white-collar jobs are generally the ones that actually cause directional rush hour to begin with, aren't they?

[Max Rockatansky]

I would have to imagine the traffic volume is still greatly affected by things like people working from home nowadays.  I would imagine that at least in the white collar world that kind of thing (working from home) is going to be way more common even after all the Virus restrictions disappear.

And those white-collar jobs are generally the ones that actually cause directional rush hour to begin with, aren't they?

Most of the people who are were commuting substantial distances pre-pandemic around the Los Angeles Area.  I know for certain that it definitely has had a long term impact on Bay Area traffic and I believe is expected to continue post-pandemic.

[sparker]

A question that also pops into my mind is; will things like congestion pricing be necessary post COVID?  I'm just shooting from the hip with this thought but I would have to imagine the traffic volume is still greatly affected by things like people working from home nowadays.  I would imagine that at least in the white collar world that kind of thing (working from home) is going to be way more common even after all the Virus restrictions disappear. 

Either way with the push to sell only electric passenger vehicles in California by 2035 I would imagine that things like; congestion pricing, tolls and mileage taxes are being looked at seriously across the board.  Something will have to replace the gas tax as a revenue generator.   

I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see a VAT (value-added-tax; similar to sales tax but imposed from the manufacturing level forward) specifically targeting non-business vehicles once the prohibition of fossil-fueled units is operative.

And those white-collar jobs are generally the ones that actually cause directional rush hour to begin with, aren't they?

Not necessarily; a sizeable portion of the warehousing jobs in the Inland Empire are decidedly "blue collar"; generally warehouse workers, many working for contractor "fulfillment" facilities, which distribute product as ordered for numerous manufacturers or importers.   Back in the late '90's and early '00's, those workers were by and large the target customers for firms hawking the subprime mortgages that accompanied the housing boom in outlying areas such as the high desert north of Cajon Pass as well as the Perris/Hemet area -- the eventual failure of such was a major contributor to the 2007-2011 recession.  25-30+ mile/direction commutes were rationalized as the price one paid for ostensibly affordable housing -- at least until foreclosures became commonplace by 2008 when that particular "house of cards" collapsed.  But the previous trend largely resumed after 2012, but without the level of predatory finances seen in the previous decade, which necessarily included much more comprehensive vetting of potential home buyers (once bitten........).     

[kphoger]

And those white-collar jobs are generally the ones that actually cause directional rush hour to begin with, aren't they?

Not necessarily; a sizeable portion of the warehousing jobs in the Inland Empire are decidedly "blue collar"; generally warehouse workers, many working for contractor "fulfillment" facilities, which distribute product as ordered for numerous manufacturers or importers.   Back in the late '90's and early '00's, those workers were by and large the target customers for firms hawking the subprime mortgages that accompanied the housing boom in outlying areas such as the high desert north of Cajon Pass as well as the Perris/Hemet area -- the eventual failure of such was a major contributor to the 2007-2011 recession.  25-30+ mile/direction commutes were rationalized as the price one paid for ostensibly affordable housing -- at least until foreclosures became commonplace by 2008 when that particular "house of cards" collapsed.  But the previous trend largely resumed after 2012, but without the level of predatory finances seen in the previous decade, which necessarily included much more comprehensive vetting of potential home buyers (once bitten........).     

I guess I'm just used to warehouse/manufacturing jobs having multiple shifts that don't necessarily line up with rush hour.