US 69 Improvements in Oklahoma

[US71]

If you build it, they won't come–AADT is only 1,831 between Hugo and Antlers.

but fritz

Oh, well, never mind then.

Hugo and Antlers. The Hugo to Antlers is part of the miss DFW and go from I-40 to the Texas Gulf Coast. Even the traffic that adopted this route skip the first part of the turnpike. There is a MOSTLY 4 lane route using US69 from Beaumont to Greenville (TX) Then a short juke on I-30 to SH24. 24 to Paris then 271 to Hugo. Then there is the rub.  271 runs virtually alongside the Turnpike to Antlers and is rural full speed highway. People skip that leg of the turnpike because it gains very little for the expense. 

Still have to go through Antlers.  I'd rather pay the extra 50 cents to avoid that.

Antlers to Hugo is normally not very busy. Or do you mean the town of Antlers? That can be busy at times.

[Road Hog]

There are better ways to avoid DFW. I-35 to Gainesville, US 82 to Bells, then US 69 south from there. No tolls.

Or from Greenville you can leave US 69 and take SH 34 to Ennis, and pick up I-45.

[sparker]

There are better ways to avoid DFW. I-35 to Gainesville, US 82 to Bells, then US 69 south from there. No tolls.

Or from Greenville you can leave US 69 and take SH 34 to Ennis, and pick up I-45.

Look, there are countless ways to avoid DFW if through-town slogs and twinned roadways strewn with commercial development are something you'd consider adequate.   Of course, the original 3di "semi-beltways" have long been subsumed by urban spread, with nothing -- or nothing currently being considered -- to actually function as "official" bypasses.  By this time, most of us have proffered one or another conceptual solution to this problem, with the chances of any of them being adopted slim and none.  But since TX interests seem to be able to pull corridors out of their hats (although some may cite other physical locations for this activity) on a regular basis, there's always that outside chance one of them will actually function as an effective bypass.  Now -- whether it's N-S or E-W -- or a blend of the two -- remains to be seen when and if it occurs.  The problem with the N-S concepts is that they invariably bring OK -- where the best-conceived plans often go to die -- into the mix. 

But we're discussing OK US 69 improvements here -- which inexorably lead directly down US 75 into downtown Dallas!  If TX' improvements to that corridor result in a move to deploy I-45 over it, any talk of a bypass -- unless initiated within DFW regional circles -- goes right out the door; such a corridor would be locally "sold" as an upgraded designation to a corridor that brings people (read customers) right into the heart of Dallas (i.e., "swamp" the I-345 teardown crowd with potential commercial urban benefits).       

[captkirk_4]

From the looks of it, once you put the Jersey barrier down, you still have too little clearance between it and the left lane. You'd have to extend the outer edge of the roadbed a few feet so you can shift the lanes outward.

Ah, the great American Interstate!  They just don't make 'em like they used to!  https://goo.gl/maps/L4jd47cHkALWc2wC7

I'd take that type of engineering through Muskogee, Pryor, Atoka, etc rather than having to go 30 with all those stop lights and local PD trying to raise revenue from people going 32 in a 30.

[captkirk_4]

I kind of hate this, but unless there's an Oklahoma state law against this, they could probably use eminent domain to acquire plots of land right next to the proposed freeway and give them to Love's and Pilot for new, more convenient locations.

Are they even building new Pilots anywhere? I love the coffee machines they have that grind a fresh cup and brew it to order and am always on the lookout and never seem to notice any new ones popping up? Loves on the other hand seems to be on a building spree, don't know if they are loaded with profits? Or leveraged by Wall Street with loans for such expansion? Yet Loves does seem to consistently have very clean bathrooms. Much better than being forced to stop at some 60 year old gas station with a single unisex bathroom you have to wait outside for then once you get in it looks like that bathroom in the 90s movie "Trainspotting."

[Ned Weasel]

Ah, the great American Interstate!  They just don't make 'em like they used to!  https://goo.gl/maps/L4jd47cHkALWc2wC7

I'd take that type of engineering through Muskogee, Pryor, Atoka, etc rather than having to go 30 with all those stop lights and local PD trying to raise revenue from people going 32 in a 30.

I pretty much agree.  With enough investment in grade separation, you could turn all those stretches into Jersey Freeways or quasi-expressways, maybe with a few two-phase traffic signals where an interchange isn't feasible but access is warranted, move the speed limit up to 50 MPH, and not have to tear down a single building.  NJDOT might have already done that by now.  But I seldom see such a level of imagination from ODOT or even neighboring KDOT.  To a large extent, they seem stuck in a mindset of "build a freeway or do next to nothing."

[In_Correct]

U.S. 69 in Oklahoma is part of The Unfinished Corridor, which should eventually be designated as simply Interstate 45. I am not in favor of destroying the Interstate 345 segment, and also I am not in favor of alternative routing:

The Interstate 45 to U.S. 271 and Indian Nation Turnpike.

The Indian Nation Turnpike south of McAlester. ... which would also have the obstacles Tushka, Atoka, and Stringtown, also south of McAlester.

U.S. 75 north of Atoka, which is an undeveloped corridor, not even an expressway.

If the other routes such as Indian Nation Turnpike and U.S. 75 get an Interstate designation, it is better for them to have their own Interstate designations, not Interstate 45. ... even if it seems very likely that those corridors will accomplish Interstate designation much earlier.

...

I think that the towns should have the road bypasses, but also I agree that the rail should have double tracks and grade separations.

The D.C.T.A. has the A-Train which uses existing freight rail, the last time I checked, was only single tracked.

There are towns chopped in half by rail roads such as Pauls Valley and Marietta.

In the Valley View - Sanger area, they are examples of towns also chopped in half.

There was a study about people stuck in traffic be cause of stopped trains, and very little space between the rail road and the frontage road. They want to build bridges so they don't have to:

A. wait for the train to move or

B. go through Denton.

They were also talking about one of the alternatives is realigning Interstate 35.

When I find the study, I will post in Mid - South.

[Ned Weasel]

^

(1) I am very confused.

(2) I should have a million dollars, and I am not in favor of bugs crawling into my bedroom.

(3) Who's considering re-aligning I-35 to where?

(4) We're well into Fictional Highways territory at this point, with all these hypothetical I-45 alignments.  Maybe it's my fault for starting in with the buildable but undesirable alternate I-45 routing.  My bad.  New thread, anyone?

(5) These paragraphs are very short.

[In_Correct]

^

(1) I am very confused.

(2) I should have a million dollars, and I am not in favor of bugs crawling into my bedroom.

(3) Who's considering re-aligning I-35 to where?

(4) We're well into Fictional Highways territory at this point, with all these hypothetical I-45 alignments.  Maybe it's my fault for starting in with the buildable but undesirable alternate I-45 routing.  My bad.  New thread, anyone?

(5) These paragraphs are very short.

1.

I quoted the entire topic from memory. My replies are condensed in to my one recent post, ... which are replying to your questions

that you forgot all about.

... and that also includes your Fictional suggestion, of which I do not agree with.

and the rest of my reply is about Rail backing up road traffic on page 11. It is also visible in the Topic Summary when you post. (!)

More information posted on Mid - South.

That is the second time I typed it.

I am not going to explain any further with this reply, but basically this is the second time I encountered a poster debated himself.

[Ned Weasel]

1.

I quoted the entire topic from memory. My replies are condensed in to my one recent post, ... which are replying to your questions

that you forgot all about.

It's a twelve-page thread.

... and that also includes your Fictional suggestion, of which I do not agree with.

Okay.

and the rest of my reply is about Rail backing up road traffic on page 11. It is also visible in the Topic Summary when you post. (!)

More information posted on Mid - South.

That is the second time I typed it.

Cool.  I saw it, except for the links that aren't playing nice with my browser, which I might try to look at later.

I am not going to explain any further with this reply, but basically this is the second time I encountered a poster debated himself.

I debate myself all the time.  No one should be surprised.

[splashflash]

Rail grade separation is currently happening just north of the Red River in Calera.

https://www.odot.org/OK-GOV-DOCS/PROGRAMS-AND-PROJECTS/GRANTS/FASTLANE-US69/MAPS-GRAPHICS/US%206975%20PROJECT%20LOCATION%20MAP.pdf

[sparker]

Rail grade separation is currently happening just north of the Red River in Caldera.

https://www.odot.org/OK-GOV-DOCS/PROGRAMS-AND-PROJECTS/GRANTS/FASTLANE-US69/MAPS-GRAPHICS/US%206975%20PROJECT%20LOCATION%20MAP.pdf

Doesn't look like the main US 69/75 corridor will cross the UP tracks at any point covered by the map; any RR grade separations will be on intersecting streets or roads.  Interestingly, the map also indicates that Calera has annexed the area adjacent to the highway down to a point where it meets northerly similar annexation by the town of Colbert; I know there's existing businesses along the frontage roads there; looks like those various cities have decided to include them -- and future facilities -- in their taxable rolls.   

[splashflash]

Rail grade separation is currently happening just north of the Red River in Caldera.

https://www.odot.org/OK-GOV-DOCS/PROGRAMS-AND-PROJECTS/GRANTS/FASTLANE-US69/MAPS-GRAPHICS/US%206975%20PROJECT%20LOCATION%20MAP.pdf

Doesn't look like the main US 69/75 corridor will cross the UP tracks at any point covered by the map; any RR grade separations will be on intersecting streets or roads.  Interestingly, the map also indicates that Calera has annexed the area adjacent to the highway down to a point where it meets northerly similar annexation by the town of Colbert; I know there's existing businesses along the frontage roads there; looks like those various cities have decided to include them -- and future facilities -- in their taxable rolls.   

From the project summary: The project proposes a local road/railroad grade separation between McKennon Avenue and South McKinley Avenue.

This project eliminates the negative effects of the existing UP rail infrastructure that creates local traffic
queues through the US 69/75 and Main Street intersection and is a physical barrier within the Town of
Calera dividing the community and restricting timely access to employment, impeding emergency vehicles
and public services, and residents' access to community services and facilities. The proposed railroad
grade separation and the three proposed US 69/75 grade separations will mitigate the negative effects of
this community barrier and significantly improve safety and freight movement.
...
The proposed project will also improve the Main Street/Union Pacific Railroad crossing by widening Main
Street from two to four lanes near the crossing to increase traffic storage. Crossing arms and synchronized
traffic signals will be added for enhanced safety. A new grade-separated railway crossing a few blocks
south of Main Street (south of existing McKennon Avenue) is also proposed. This new railway crossing,
consisting of a new bridge to carry the city street over the railroad, will allow local traffic to move freely
between east and west Calera without conflicts from rail traffic. The new grade separation will also improve
emergency vehicle access and will improve traffic mobility on US 69/75 as local traffic congestion
decreases.

The four mile arterial section of US69/75 perhaps may be in line for upgrades in 10 years?

[splashflash]

The four mile arterial section of US69/75 perhaps may be in line for upgrades in 10 years?

From the ODOT application:

ODOT considered submitting the entire eight-mile section of US 69/75 that is not access controlled for
funding under the FASTLANE program, but determined that the four-mile segment described in this
application is most critical to freight and traffic flow on US 69/75 and to the economy and safety of the
southeast Oklahoma region. The improvements to this four-mile segment of the corridor represent the
smallest section of independent utility within the eight miles that lack access control. Improvements to the
remaining four mile section of this corridor that is not access controlled will be less costly to address and
ODOT will continue to develop improvements in this segment of the corridor as funds are available.

[sparker]

From the ODOT application:

ODOT considered submitting the entire eight-mile section of US 69/75 that is not access controlled for
funding under the FASTLANE program, but determined that the four-mile segment described in this
application is most critical to freight and traffic flow on US 69/75 and to the economy and safety of the
southeast Oklahoma region. The improvements to this four-mile segment of the corridor represent the
smallest section of independent utility within the eight miles that lack access control. Improvements to the
remaining four mile section of this corridor that is not access controlled will be less costly to address and
ODOT will continue to develop improvements in this segment of the corridor as funds are available.

In short, ODOT didn't have the money to complete the entire project at once, so they split it into a more difficult and less difficult half; and they're choosing to do the more difficult/in-town section initially.  Actually, considering the fiscal circumstances that's something of an admirable plan of attack; let the easier-to-deploy more rural segment be the one subject to inflationary pressure.

I would suspect that if TX extended I-45 up US 75 to the state line in a unilateral move, ODOT would at least arrange improvement of their portion of the corridor north to US 70 near Durant -- as the most obvious traffic generator -- so as to enhance the commercial prospects of the immediate area; whether they'd participate in actual I-45 designation/signage up to that point remains TBD. 

[Ned Weasel]

In short, ODOT didn't have the money to complete the entire project at once, so they split it into a more difficult and less difficult half; and they're choosing to do the more difficult/in-town section initially.  Actually, considering the fiscal circumstances that's something of an admirable plan of attack; let the easier-to-deploy more rural segment be the one subject to inflationary pressure.

I would suspect that if TX extended I-45 up US 75 to the state line in a unilateral move, ODOT would at least arrange improvement of their portion of the corridor north to US 70 near Durant -- as the most obvious traffic generator -- so as to enhance the commercial prospects of the immediate area; whether they'd participate in actual I-45 designation/signage up to that point remains TBD. 

That's a good point.  It could end up looking like I-72 in Missouri, where they at least got it over the state line, but then let it end there for a long time, with a long-distance extension coming who knows when.

[rte66man]

Rail grade separation is currently happening just north of the Red River in Caldera.

https://www.odot.org/OK-GOV-DOCS/PROGRAMS-AND-PROJECTS/GRANTS/FASTLANE-US69/MAPS-GRAPHICS/US%206975%20PROJECT%20LOCATION%20MAP.pdf

Doesn't look like the main US 69/75 corridor will cross the UP tracks at any point covered by the map; any RR grade separations will be on intersecting streets or roads.   

You are correct:
https://www.odot.org/meetings/a2017/170615/ProjectDesignUpdate42919.pdf

Full details at:
https://www.ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=23200

[sparker]

In short, ODOT didn't have the money to complete the entire project at once, so they split it into a more difficult and less difficult half; and they're choosing to do the more difficult/in-town section initially.  Actually, considering the fiscal circumstances that's something of an admirable plan of attack; let the easier-to-deploy more rural segment be the one subject to inflationary pressure.

I would suspect that if TX extended I-45 up US 75 to the state line in a unilateral move, ODOT would at least arrange improvement of their portion of the corridor north to US 70 near Durant -- as the most obvious traffic generator -- so as to enhance the commercial prospects of the immediate area; whether they'd participate in actual I-45 designation/signage up to that point remains TBD. 

That's a good point.  It could end up looking like I-72 in Missouri, where they at least got it over the state line, but then let it end there for a long time, with a long-distance extension coming who knows when.

It would be, for all intents & purposes, the inverse of the situation upriver with I-44:  OK had a facility (the Bailey Turnpike) that they wanted to designate as an Interstate, so they got TX to agree to continue the designation south to the nearest population center/traffic generator, Wichita Falls.  And 38 years later it still hasn't gone any farther!

[Bobby5280]

Yeah, it's frustrating that I-44 simply dead-ends as a stub in Wichita Falls. The highway junction where it ends is kind of impressive. That tall fly-over ramp from Kell Freeway to I-44 is a little stomach churning.

At least there seems to be a little progress regarding the 2-digit Interstate stubs in Texas. There's long term hope of I-27 being extended. I-69 is making the end of I-37 more interesting. Progress on I-44 in Texas is in even more tiny baby steps.

TX DOT finished the 4-lane upgrade of US-277 between Abilene and Wichita Falls. Stamford, Haskell, Munday, Goree, Seymour and Holliday all have bypasses with some limited access function. Overall, if TX DOT decided on fully converting the Wichita Falls to Abilene road into an Interstate it wouldn't be difficult to do at all.

The biggest problem facing an I-44 extension is on the SW outskirts of Wichita Falls: the non-freeway gap between the end of Kell Freeway and the Holliday bypass. TX DOT did a number of studies and held public meetings over the design alternatives. They had a couple or so route alternatives for freeways on new terrain paths as well as a more modest, non-freeway upgrade of existing US-82/277. Unfortunately it looks like TX DOT is going to go with the cheaper, non-freeway thing. IIRC I think all that "upgrade" does is widen the non-divided 4-lane road into a 5-lane road with a center turn lane and (maybe) better pavement. Very ho hum.

[sparker]

Yeah, it's frustrating that I-44 simply dead-ends as a stub in Wichita Falls. The highway junction where it ends is kind of impressive. That tall fly-over ramp from Kell Freeway to I-44 is a little stomach churning.

At least there seems to be a little progressing regarding the 2-digit Interstate stubs in Texas. There's long term hope of I-27 being extended. I-69 is making the end of I-37 more interesting. Progress on I-44 in Texas is in even more tiny baby steps.

TX DOT finished the 4-lane upgrade of US-277 between Abilene and Wichita Falls. Stamford, Haskell, Munday, Goree, Seymour and Holliday all have bypasses with some limited access function. Overall, if TX DOT decided on fully converting the Wichita Falls to Abilene road into an Interstate it wouldn't be difficult to do at all.

The biggest problem facing an I-44 extension is on the SW outskirts of Wichita Falls: the non-freeway gap between the end of Kell Freeway and the Holliday bypass. TX DOT did a number of studies and held public meetings over the design alternatives. They had a couple or so route alternatives for freeways on new terrain paths as well as a more modest, non-freeway upgrade of existing US-82/277. Unfortunately it looks like TX DOT is going to go with the cheaper, non-freeway thing. IIRC I think all that "upgrade" does is widen the non-divided 4-lane road into a 5-lane road with a center turn lane and (maybe) better pavement. Very ho hum.

The main problem with 5-lane "quasi-divided" facilities is that while they do have the effect of increasing capacity over a conventional 2-lane highway while maintaining full local access (more often than not a driving factor in the decision to deploy them), they tend to attract additional roadside facilities to those segments, making it more difficult to (a) upgrade them later into a freeway+frontage situation or (b) effect a bypass without going far afield from the existing route.  TX has a working "temporary facility" model effective elsewhere -- build the frontages, let those serve as main traffic lanes -- with full local/private access, of course -- until funds can be identified and apportioned to build the freeway in the "median".  But this means acquiring enough right of way to accommodate the "full monty" facililty, which of course means more short-term funds spent.  But at least in the case of 82/277 here, some alternative new-terrain alignments have been identified; it would be prudent for TxDOT to acquire/reserve a ROW along one of those and somewhere down the line effectively make their 5-laner a business loop. 

[rte66man]

TX DOT finished the 4-lane upgrade of US-277 between Abilene and Wichita Falls. Stamford, Haskell, Munday, Goree, Seymour and Holliday all have bypasses with some limited access function. Overall, if TX DOT decided on fully converting the Wichita Falls to Abilene road into an Interstate it wouldn't be difficult to do at all.

They missed Anson. Do you know if TxDOT has any plans for a bypass?

[Revive 755]

Yeah, it's frustrating that I-44 simply dead-ends as a stub in Wichita Falls. The highway junction where it ends is kind of impressive. That tall fly-over ramp from Kell Freeway to I-44 is a little stomach churning.

At least there seems to be a little progressing regarding the 2-digit Interstate stubs in Texas. There's long term hope of I-27 being extended. I-69 is making the end of I-37 more interesting. Progress on I-44 in Texas is in even more tiny baby steps.

You forgot I-2 

[rte66man]

Yeah, it's frustrating that I-44 simply dead-ends as a stub in Wichita Falls. The highway junction where it ends is kind of impressive. That tall fly-over ramp from Kell Freeway to I-44 is a little stomach churning.

It's obvious that this interchange was supposed to be a full stack with an eastern extension of Kell passing just south of downtown. I would assume it would have followed TX447 but I'm not sure where it would have ended up. Does anyone know?

[rte66man]

Listed in the September bid openings:

• Construction of the Kinkead Road interchange in McAlester. $27 million.

Listed as provisional for October:

• New Port of Entry near the OK91 interchange - $5.3 million
• Modifications to the OK91 interchange - $2.6 million

No plans have been posted yet.

[sparker]

Yeah, it's frustrating that I-44 simply dead-ends as a stub in Wichita Falls. The highway junction where it ends is kind of impressive. That tall fly-over ramp from Kell Freeway to I-44 is a little stomach churning.

It's obvious that this interchange was supposed to be a full stack with an eastern extension of Kell passing just south of downtown. I would assume it would have followed TX447 but I'm not sure where it would have ended up. Does anyone know?

IIRC, back in the early '90's I saw long-range plans to continue the freeway east past downtown; it would have eventually become an expressway connecting (and possibly partially replacing) the TX 79 diagonal into OK.  That route gets a lot of truck traffic; I've used it more than once to and from US 70 to get to US 287.