Indiana Notes

[Rothman]

As for the State of Indiana using our one toll road (not counting the Ohio River bridges) as a piggy bank for projects throughout the state, you have to remember it is located so far north that few Hoosiers ever use it, outside of those in & between South Bend and Gary (granted, a lot of people, but not compared to the whole state). A majority of the heavy truck traffic on it is pass-through from & to other states. Thus our politicians have little incentive NOT to use revenue from that highway elsewhere. Is that "fair"? Perhaps not, but I could argue that the whole idea of tolling highways in the first place is patently unfair.

Heard in lunchtime discussion yesterday that Indiana had just extended the lease of the toll road and gotten a pretty good chunk of change out of the deal.

That is what we were talking about and how the chunk of change is not as advantageous as a steadier flow of revenue.  Indiana gave up the Toll Road and is now at the mercy of the benevolence of the private operator.

Just like last time, Indiana will burn through the funds on their chosen special projects, leaving its core capital program anemic and stressing localities by turning more mileage over to them.

[silverback1065]

They raised the gas tax for everything else

As for the State of Indiana using our one toll road (not counting the Ohio River bridges) as a piggy bank for projects throughout the state, you have to remember it is located so far north that few Hoosiers ever use it, outside of those in & between South Bend and Gary (granted, a lot of people, but not compared to the whole state). A majority of the heavy truck traffic on it is pass-through from & to other states. Thus our politicians have little incentive NOT to use revenue from that highway elsewhere. Is that "fair"? Perhaps not, but I could argue that the whole idea of tolling highways in the first place is patently unfair.

Heard in lunchtime discussion yesterday that Indiana had just extended the lease of the toll road and gotten a pretty good chunk of change out of the deal.

That is what we were talking about and how the chunk of change is not as advantageous as a steadier flow of revenue.  Indiana gave up the Toll Road and is now at the mercy of the benevolence of the private operator.

Just like last time, Indiana will burn through the funds on their chosen special projects, leaving its core capital program anemic and stressing localities by turning more mileage over to them.

[2trailertrucker]

I am waiting to see when the trucking companies start routing their drivers off the ITR and onto US 20 and US 30. Even with the discount from EXPass, there will be a breaking point, and "shunpiking"  begins.

[mvak36]

Not counting flashing yellows, I counted 3 last night:

• Division Rd. in Tipton County
• SR 218 in Miami County - North of Grissom
• W. 100N in Miami county - at the Gallahan Travel Plaza

What will they do with the intersection for US24 business (W Logansport Road) in Peru? It looks like there is a road on the SW side of the intersection that connects the two roads.

[silverback1065]

Not counting flashing yellows, I counted 3 last night:

• Division Rd. in Tipton County
• SR 218 in Miami County - North of Grissom
• W. 100N in Miami county - at the Gallahan Travel Plaza

What will they do with the intersection for US24 business (W Logansport Road) in Peru? It looks like there is a road on the SW side of the intersection that connects the two roads.

Yes there is a small road connection. My guess is they remove it permanently. It's next to a bridge over a river, seems too much trouble to add an exit there with us 24 just up the street

[PurdueBill]

It's a good thing that they got the dual carriageway US 24 done west of there when they did.  US 24 eastbound traffic used to have to turn left onto 31 northbound there to get up to the new alignment which was completed already.  It was not that safe.  I can't imagine that the access there is all that popular but it does cut off some distance for people going to and from the south.  It would be best to make it a RIRO if they do keep it.

[edwaleni]

I am waiting to see when the trucking companies start routing their drivers off the ITR and onto US 20 and US 30. Even with the discount from EXPass, there will be a breaking point, and "shunpiking"  begins.

Agreed, many companies have logistics software that calculates the least cost route from A to B.

If the toll increases cost more than re-routing them over US-30, which would also include the cost to have the driver operating longer since the route is mildly slower/further, then they will gladly shunpike the route.

[silverback1065]

after driving US 30 in Warsaw, that needs to be an interstate grade facility. traffic is awful! and theres a lot of trucks!

[pianocello]

after driving US 30 in Warsaw, that needs to be an interstate grade facility. traffic is awful! and theres a lot of trucks!

Just get rid of the lights and call it good. Unfortunately, that probably still means a completely new-alignment bypass of Warsaw, as well as some creative roadway designs at Plymouth, Columbia City, the NE side of Fort Wayne, and the east side of Valparaiso.

[theline]

I am waiting to see when the trucking companies start routing their drivers off the ITR and onto US 20 and US 30. Even with the discount from EXPass, there will be a breaking point, and "shunpiking"  begins.

Agreed, many companies have logistics software that calculates the least cost route from A to B.

If the toll increases cost more than re-routing them over US-30, which would also include the cost to have the driver operating longer since the route is mildly slower/further, then they will gladly shunpike the route.

Check out this report from WNDU-TV: https://www.wndu.com/content/news/Governor-Holcomb-says-new-toll-hikes-shouldnt-be-a-concern-492532611.html

The young reporter does a good job of trying to put Gov. Holcomb on the spot, but he just keeps spouting the same cliche about the ITR being the finest toll road in the country. I'd be interested in seeing what the contract calls for in the likely event that the increased rates lead to decreased usage. I'd bet that the lessee gets a break and taxpayers end up with their projects short-funded. Another negative outcome for Hoosiers would be increased truck traffic on US 20 and US 30 caused by shunpikers.

[paulthemapguy]

The Indiana Toll Road might be the worst-maintained toll road I've ever been on lmao

[westerninterloper]

The Indiana Toll Road might be the worst-maintained toll road I've ever been on lmao

It is so so bad. I drive between Chicago and Toledo several times a year, and always exhale with relief when I reach the Ohio Turnpike, which is one of the best roads in the US.

[theline]

The Indiana Toll Road might be the worst-maintained toll road I've ever been on lmao

It is so so bad. I drive between Chicago and Toledo several times a year, and always exhale with relief when I reach the Ohio Turnpike, which is one of the best roads in the US.

There are reasons for the lack of maintenance. When the road was state-run, money was very tight due to a (probably politically-motivated) reluctance to raise tolls. The former lessee, the one that went bankrupt, was able to raise rates but was hit by the recession. Usage of the road decreased and  that company struggled due to other bad investments.

The new lessee has promised a lot of improvements and delivered on some. The road has been repaved west of South Bend and some of the ancient service plazas have been rebuilt. I thought that the repaving was to continue to the east this summer, but nothing happened. That's a discouraging development.

[silverback1065]

465/74 EB on the southside is now closed for pavement resurfacing, and deck overlays.  70 and 65 are now a mess, due to them being the official detour. 

[2trailertrucker]

465/74 EB on the southside is now closed for pavement resurfacing, and deck overlays.  70 and 65 are now a mess, due to them being the official detour.

Here is the info on the closures:
https://www.in.gov/indot/3775.htm

[nwi_navigator_1181]

Took another trip down I-65, this time to Indiana 2, to see how the expansion project is going. Now it's at the point where we get glimpses of the final product. Traffic in both directions is driving in the current middle and right lanes from US 30 to 109th Avenue, and again from the US 231 bridge to two miles north of Indiana 2. The sections that aren't just need to be striped, along with a section of concrete median that is currently being built just north of the US 231 overpass.

There is a lot of new signage along the stretch; the BGS's have been replaced and refreshed a while ago (with the lone exception of the US 231 gantry sign facing southbound traffic, which may happen after all the other affairs are in order), and new reassurance signs have been put up as well.

One thing I noticed was that the bridges near the 109th Avenue interchange have already been resurfaced. You can tell as you cross the bridges; the main surface looks like smooth concrete, while the bridge surfaces look more coarse, like sandpaper. Speaking of which, it doesn't appear crews will resurface the existing concrete areas after major work is done...at least not in this time period.

A new travel time sign is up for northbound traffic; while not active yet, it will provide times for US 30 (7 miles from that point) and I-80/94 (13 miles from that point).

I'll wait until the work is substantially complete to take another ride through the area. At the rate they're working, it might be another two weeks before the project reaches completion. It definitely looks like they'll be done well before the end of October.

[silverback1065]

Took another trip down I-65, this time to Indiana 2, to see how the expansion project is going. Now it's at the point where we get glimpses of the final product. Traffic in both directions is driving in the current middle and right lanes from US 30 to 109th Avenue, and again from the US 231 bridge to two miles north of Indiana 2. The sections that aren't just need to be striped, along with a section of concrete median that is currently being built just north of the US 231 overpass.

There is a lot of new signage along the stretch; the BGS's have been replaced and refreshed a while ago (with the lone exception of the US 231 gantry sign facing southbound traffic, which may happen after all the other affairs are in order), and new reassurance signs have been put up as well.

One thing I noticed was that the bridges near the 109th Avenue interchange have already been resurfaced. You can tell as you cross the bridges; the main surface looks like smooth concrete, while the bridge surfaces look more coarse, like sandpaper. Speaking of which, it doesn't appear crews will resurface the existing concrete areas after major work is done...at least not in this time period.

A new travel time sign is up for northbound traffic; while not active yet, it will provide times for US 30 (7 miles from that point) and I-80/94 (13 miles from that point).

I'll wait until the work is substantially complete to take another ride through the area. At the rate they're working, it might be another two weeks before the project reaches completion. It definitely looks like they'll be done well before the end of October.

i believe that new bridge surface is a special material that has a much lower freezing point, so reduce likelyhood of freezing in the winter.

[mgk920]

Took another trip down I-65, this time to Indiana 2, to see how the expansion project is going. Now it's at the point where we get glimpses of the final product. Traffic in both directions is driving in the current middle and right lanes from US 30 to 109th Avenue, and again from the US 231 bridge to two miles north of Indiana 2. The sections that aren't just need to be striped, along with a section of concrete median that is currently being built just north of the US 231 overpass.

There is a lot of new signage along the stretch; the BGS's have been replaced and refreshed a while ago (with the lone exception of the US 231 gantry sign facing southbound traffic, which may happen after all the other affairs are in order), and new reassurance signs have been put up as well.

One thing I noticed was that the bridges near the 109th Avenue interchange have already been resurfaced. You can tell as you cross the bridges; the main surface looks like smooth concrete, while the bridge surfaces look more coarse, like sandpaper. Speaking of which, it doesn't appear crews will resurface the existing concrete areas after major work is done...at least not in this time period.

A new travel time sign is up for northbound traffic; while not active yet, it will provide times for US 30 (7 miles from that point) and I-80/94 (13 miles from that point).

I'll wait until the work is substantially complete to take another ride through the area. At the rate they're working, it might be another two weeks before the project reaches completion. It definitely looks like they'll be done well before the end of October.

i believe that new bridge surface is a special material that has a much lower freezing point, so reduce likelyhood of freezing in the winter.

WisDOT's been doing that on a lot of new and resurfaced freeway bridges over the past decade or so, too.

Mike

[NWI_Irish96]

Took another trip down I-65, this time to Indiana 2, to see how the expansion project is going. Now it's at the point where we get glimpses of the final product. Traffic in both directions is driving in the current middle and right lanes from US 30 to 109th Avenue, and again from the US 231 bridge to two miles north of Indiana 2. The sections that aren't just need to be striped, along with a section of concrete median that is currently being built just north of the US 231 overpass.

There is a lot of new signage along the stretch; the BGS's have been replaced and refreshed a while ago (with the lone exception of the US 231 gantry sign facing southbound traffic, which may happen after all the other affairs are in order), and new reassurance signs have been put up as well.

One thing I noticed was that the bridges near the 109th Avenue interchange have already been resurfaced. You can tell as you cross the bridges; the main surface looks like smooth concrete, while the bridge surfaces look more coarse, like sandpaper. Speaking of which, it doesn't appear crews will resurface the existing concrete areas after major work is done...at least not in this time period.

A new travel time sign is up for northbound traffic; while not active yet, it will provide times for US 30 (7 miles from that point) and I-80/94 (13 miles from that point).

I'll wait until the work is substantially complete to take another ride through the area. At the rate they're working, it might be another two weeks before the project reaches completion. It definitely looks like they'll be done well before the end of October.

I was through there last night, though it was too dark to see much.  There were crews out working in a couple different spots.

[nwi_navigator_1181]

Remember when I said I was going to wait until project completion to roll through I-65's newest widened area? I lied.

I went just to 231 and back today, but a lot of work was done in just that week. Permanent striping is in place for the driving lanes; only the inner shoulder has yet to be done. Northbound lanes had white paint on the inner shoulder and far left lane (more on the possibility why in a bit), and the new southbound VMS is up near 101st Avenue, but not yet active.

The section of unfinished concrete median I mentioned upthread is now up...and it didn't take long for it to be tested, as I saw police tending to a car that lightly careened into it (thankfully, the driver was unhurt).

There were sections of ratted asphalt in the area between 109th Avenue and US 30 that I thought needed resurfacing. I thought they would go through and redo those areas with fresh concrete to make it uniform, but they at least did the next best thing; those sections were patched with fresh, smooth asphalt (which is probably why they had the aforementioned inner lanes north of 231 marked with white paint...to move traffic aside while that work concludes).

I really think they're going to be finished by mid-October. The remaining crews are primarily out for cleanup and (soon) electrical logistics for the new VMS and Rest Area Smart Parking signs. They've really put in the work.

The other major point of contention is US 20. Work on the stretch between (Porter/LaPorte) County Line Road and Indiana 2 has been stalled due to road testing, but both areas should be repaved by the end of October. The one section that won't be completely finished will be the section in Michigan City between Woodland Avenue and Johnson Road. Next year, plans are in place to install a center left-turn lane in that section. Currently, there are no turn lanes AT ALL, which leaves eastbound traffic ripe for rear end accidents or sideswipes because of the chain of plazas along the left hand side. This time next year, it should be remedied.

INDOT warns of possible (but short-lasting) full blown closures at the intersection of US 20 and US 421 for asphalt paving, but drivers will be warned beforehand via portable VMS or its Facebook page.

[silverback1065]

INDOT has released the preferred alternative to the north split project:

https://northsplit.com/maps/alternative-4c-maps/

this looks great, the exits from the left are all gone, and 70wb comes in from the right and leaves at the south split from the right, and going in reverse, 70eb enters at the south split on the left and leaves the north split on the left, no more big weave there.

no more need to floor it to hit 70 eb from the delaware street ramp either.

interchange as a whole gets much smaller

one negative, no more access to exit 111 for 65 sb (michigan st, ohio st, and fletcher ave.) in order to do that you will have to get off on exit 113 and ride 11th street and get back onto the highway.

still staring at the map, so i may post more observations or corrections later!

[csw]

one negative, no more access to exit 111 for 65 sb (michigan st, ohio st, and fletcher ave.) in order to do that you will have to get off on exit 113 and ride 11th street and get back onto the highway.

How much use does that movement get currently?

also the ghost ramps' days are now officially numbered.

[SSR_317]

INDOT has released the preferred alternative to the north split project:

https://northsplit.com/maps/alternative-4c-maps/

this looks great, the exits from the left are all gone, and 70wb comes in from the right and leaves at the south split from the right, and going in reverse, 70eb enters at the south split on the left and leaves the north split on the left, no more big weave there.

no more need to floor it to hit 70 eb from the delaware street ramp either.

interchange as a whole gets much smaller

one negative, no more access to exit 111 for 65 sb (michigan st, ohio st, and fletcher ave.) in order to do that you will have to get off on exit 113 and ride 11th street and get back onto the highway.

still staring at the map, so i may post more observations or corrections later!

Another MAJOR negative, no access from WB I-70 to the NB I-65 Pennsylvania/Meridian exit. Traffic from the NE & N sides wanting to access the north portions of Downtown will have to go all the way to the I-65 West Street/MLK left exit (which granted, will be easier given the relocated W70-N65 ramp) then double back on surface streets. This could be avoided by using the existing alignment of the W70-N65 ramp to create a dedicated ramp from WB I-70 that would join up with the new NB I-65 exit ramp for Pennsylvania/Meridian off of the mainline just east of the Central Ave grade separation. It would mean adding back 2 bridges along the current route of the W70-N65 ramp that this plan completely eliminates (over Lewis St & Monon Trail and over College Ave), but it would most certainly improve traffic flow on the surface streets on the north & NW sides of the CBD.

Also, while this plan makes the EB I-70 curve much shallower, it also severely tightens the NB I-65 curve. Several significant left merges still remain as well, most notably the Pine St entry ramp to EB I-70 (now the NB I-65 entry ramp). That being said, no plan for this junction will be perfect and the elimination of the NB/EB weave for through traffic and the elimination of the left entry for the S65-E70 movement will both be major accomplishments.

[silverback1065]

INDOT has released the preferred alternative to the north split project:

https://northsplit.com/maps/alternative-4c-maps/

this looks great, the exits from the left are all gone, and 70wb comes in from the right and leaves at the south split from the right, and going in reverse, 70eb enters at the south split on the left and leaves the north split on the left, no more big weave there.

no more need to floor it to hit 70 eb from the delaware street ramp either.

interchange as a whole gets much smaller

one negative, no more access to exit 111 for 65 sb (michigan st, ohio st, and fletcher ave.) in order to do that you will have to get off on exit 113 and ride 11th street and get back onto the highway.

still staring at the map, so i may post more observations or corrections later!

Another MAJOR negative, no access from WB I-70 to the NB I-65 Pennsylvania/Meridian exit. Traffic from the NE & N sides wanting to access the north portions of Downtown will have to go all the way to the I-65 West Street/MLK left exit (which granted, will be easier given the relocated W70-N65 ramp) then double back on surface streets. This could be avoided by using the existing alignment of the W70-N65 ramp to create a dedicated ramp from WB I-70 that would join up with the new NB I-65 exit ramp for Pennsylvania/Meridian off of the mainline just east of the Central Ave grade separation. It would mean adding back 2 bridges along the current route of the W70-N65 ramp that this plan completely eliminates (over Lewis St & Monon Trail and over College Ave), but it would most certainly improve traffic flow on the surface streets on the north & NW sides of the CBD.

Also, while this plan makes the EB I-70 curve much shallower, it also severely tightens the NB I-65 curve. Several significant left merges still remain as well, most notably the Pine St entry ramp to EB I-70 (now the NB I-65 entry ramp). That being said, no plan for this junction will be perfect and the elimination of the NB/EB weave for through traffic and the elimination of the left entry for the S65-E70 movement will both be major accomplishments.

i didnt notice that, that could be fixed pretty easily.

[silverback1065]

knowing INDOT, they will fuck up at least one lane configuration and we'll be stuck with it for 50 yrs.