Texas used to take a two lane roads with shoulders and convert them to four lane roads without shoulders. It was cheap and quite effective in builidng capacity. Think of hwy 183 north out of Austin (hwy 29 Seward Junction) to Lampasas, one could tell it used to be a two lane road with shoulders that got converted. The same with hwy 281 through the hill country. Has Texas stopped doing this?
Another road that would be an excellent candidate would 190/36 from Temple to Somersville. The main route from Central Texas to Houston, it is clogged with vehicles. It would be a cheap and effective way to add capacity.
If the practice has been discontinued, it's probably because of the somewhat-recent US highway design standards (which generally require shoulders) and studies that show the greater safety benefits of having a shoulder.
The widening projects I've seen the plans for call for widening the pavement and building shoulders. I'm not aware of any new four-laning without widening the road.
I'm not a fan of the narrow four-lane roads. I occasionally drive on US 183 from Austin to Lampasas. I can't say it's overtly hazardous, but the road doesn't feel right. I could see a highway like that being used for moderate speed in a built-up area, but it doesn't seem right for high speeds. Now the speed limit is being raised to 75 from Seward Junction to Lampasas, which is a small difference, but that road already doesn't seem right at 70.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. I'd rather have a two-lane road with shoulders, or even a two-lane road without shoulders. I think it has to do with the appearance of a wide and spacious road, but without a median or shoulders, it's actually pretty restricted. Driving on a narrow two-lane road feels narrow, and you're aware of it. A narrow four-lane road doesn't have room for variances, but gives you the sense of it being a wide road. I think it feels funny to me because it tricks the senses into thinking it's a spacious road, but the logical mind knows that it isn't.
I'd suggest it may be better to add capacity cheaply by adding repeating passing lanes and keeping most of the road two-laned and shouldered.
I'd build the shoulders myself, but I think a European-style 2+1 road with a barrier should be considered a lot more often.
I'd be more concerned if the shoulders were only 10ft, thus instead of one 12ft lane, you have two 11ft lanes. When you're trying to pass a tractor trailer, that extra foot is a surprising comfort. If you had smaller shoulders originally, you might end up with 10ft lanes, which would even make passing cars an uncomfortable procedure, especially with people who tend to drift within their lane.
Quote from: wxfree on September 19, 2013, 09:46:33 PM
The widening projects I've seen the plans for call for widening the pavement and building shoulders. I'm not aware of any new four-laning without widening the road.
I'm not a fan of the narrow four-lane roads. I occasionally drive on US 183 from Austin to Lampasas. I can't say it's overtly hazardous, but the road doesn't feel right. I could see a highway like that being used for moderate speed in a built-up area, but it doesn't seem right for high speeds. Now the speed limit is being raised to 75 from Seward Junction to Lampasas, which is a small difference, but that road already doesn't seem right at 70.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. I'd rather have a two-lane road with shoulders, or even a two-lane road without shoulders. I think it has to do with the appearance of a wide and spacious road, but without a median or shoulders, it's actually pretty restricted. Driving on a narrow two-lane road feels narrow, and you're aware of it. A narrow four-lane road doesn't have room for variances, but gives you the sense of it being a wide road. I think it feels funny to me because it tricks the senses into thinking it's a spacious road, but the logical mind knows that it isn't.
I'd suggest it may be better to add capacity cheaply by adding repeating passing lanes and keeping most of the road two-laned and shouldered.
Given a choice I rather be on the four lane with no shoulders. Spend some time on a two lane with shoulders stuck behind someone who think posted speed limits are just suggestions and one will come to appreciate a passing lane. I think its much safer to convert two laners to four laners without shoulders. Since someone has told me pulling over to the shoulder to let someone pass is now illegal (when did that happen?)
I think it always has been, it's just such a common feature of Texas driving that nobody observes the law on that one. My guess is that the law is just a blanket prohibition on driving on the shoulder, meant to keep people from using the shoulder as a passing lane.
I would think safety would depend on the profile of the road prior to restriping. If there is enough room to add full-width lanes, then go for it, but if you have to have narrower than standard lanes, I don't think it's worth it from a safety perspective. Better to have more margin of error.
It's legal to drive on the shoulder to let faster traffic pass, to pass someone turning left, before making a right turn, or to accelerate after turning onto the road.
Texas Transportation Code:
QuoteSec. 545.058. DRIVING ON IMPROVED SHOULDER. (a) An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only:
(1) to stop, stand, or park;
(2) to accelerate before entering the main traveled lane of traffic;
(3) to decelerate before making a right turn;
(4) to pass another vehicle that is slowing or stopped on the main traveled portion of the highway, disabled, or preparing to make a left turn;
(5) to allow another vehicle traveling faster to pass;
(6) as permitted or required by an official traffic-control device; or
(7) to avoid a collision.
Of course, this applies only to Texas. I frequently used the shoulder to let others pass when I had my first car, which didn't like going 70.
I wouldn't argue that narrow 4-lanes should never be used, but I've never seen one I liked. There seem to be too many different things that can happen with cars so close to each other and nowhere to go other than onto the grass or over the double-yellow. Repeating passing lanes, like what's being done on US 281 from Hico to Lampasas, is almost as good for ease of passing and safer overall.
Quote from: wxfree on September 20, 2013, 03:43:03 PM
It's legal to drive on the shoulder to let faster traffic pass, to pass someone turning left, before making a right turn, or to accelerate after turning onto the road.
I wouldn't argue that narrow 4-lanes should never be used, but I've never seen one I liked. There seem to be too many different things that can happen with cars so close to each other and nowhere to go other than onto the grass or over the double-yellow. Repeating passing lanes, like what's being done on US 281 from Hico to Lampasas, is almost as good for ease of passing and safer overall.
http://epg.modot.org/index.php?title=232.2_Passing_Lanes
Is this what is being done to US 281 there? I've driven several highways in MO that have this, and it's great. Cost effective, yet improves capacity. I wish the passing lanes were a bit longer though.
Quote from: M86 on September 22, 2013, 01:45:05 AM
Quote from: wxfree on September 20, 2013, 03:43:03 PM
It's legal to drive on the shoulder to let faster traffic pass, to pass someone turning left, before making a right turn, or to accelerate after turning onto the road.
I wouldn't argue that narrow 4-lanes should never be used, but I've never seen one I liked. There seem to be too many different things that can happen with cars so close to each other and nowhere to go other than onto the grass or over the double-yellow. Repeating passing lanes, like what's being done on US 281 from Hico to Lampasas, is almost as good for ease of passing and safer overall.
http://epg.modot.org/index.php?title=232.2_Passing_Lanes
Is this what is being done to US 281 there? I've driven several highways in MO that have this, and it's great. Cost effective, yet improves capacity. I wish the passing lanes were a bit longer though.
Yes. The highway in Hamilton County is being rebuilt with the lanes added. As I recall, the portion in Lampasas County, or a part of it, has already had the passing lanes added.
There's currently one southbound passing lane just north of Hamilton. The plans call for 4 more southbound and 4 northbound between there and Hico. The plans also call for 4 southbound and 3 northbound between Hamilton and Evant.
They're generally a bit over a mile long, and 2-5 miles between the end of one and the beginning of the next.
After traveling on two lane hwy 36 from Temple to Somersville, I so wish in the interim, TXDoT would turn the shoulders into lanes. The fact that it is two lanes IS a safety issue. Also, I notice some shoulder construction for a couple miles outside of Cameron on 190/36. What is TXDot doing? Expanding that section to four lanes?
I've seen recent examples of TxDOT converting shoulders into driving lanes. Instead of a new shoulder, they (or the contractor, anyway) lined the roadway with a concrete curb. This was in a semi-urban area with future development expected, however.
Using Google Earth, which seems surprisingly accurate when measuring known distances (down to the foot), I measure the lanes on US 183 north of Austin as about 11 feet wide, in places seemingly a bit less (43 feet for 4 lanes). That's probably why it seems less safe to me, with potentially 4 lines of traffic on narrow lanes, and shoulders that appear to be a foot or less.
Years ago, US 377 (Ft Worth Dr) in Denton, from I-35E to Carroll Blvd was four very narrow lanes. My suspicion is that it used to be two lanes with shoulders.
The section from Carroll to Eagle is still like this. And yes, the lanes are too narrow.
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
Quote from: wxfree on August 12, 2016, 05:14:04 AM
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
What do they mean by "Super 2"?
Quote from wxfree:
Quote
The widening projects I've seen the plans for call for widening the pavement and building shoulders. I'm not aware of any new four-laning without widening the road.
I'm not a fan of the narrow four-lane roads. I occasionally drive on US 183 from Austin to Lampasas. I can't say it's overtly hazardous, but the road doesn't feel right. I could see a highway like that being used for moderate speed in a built-up area, but it doesn't seem right for high speeds. Now the speed limit is being raised to 75 from Seward Junction to Lampasas, which is a small difference, but that road already doesn't seem right at 70.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. I'd rather have a two-lane road with shoulders, or even a two-lane road without shoulders. I think it has to do with the appearance of a wide and spacious road, but without a median or shoulders, it's actually pretty restricted. Driving on a narrow two-lane road feels narrow, and you're aware of it. A narrow four-lane road doesn't have room for variances, but gives you the sense of it being a wide road. I think it feels funny to me because it tricks the senses into thinking it's a spacious road, but the logical mind knows that it isn't.
I'd suggest it may be better to add capacity cheaply by adding repeating passing lanes and keeping most of the road two-laned and shouldered.
I like your logic here, and agree with it. Half-assery is unsafe. 12 ft lanes are needed for semi's. Left turn lanes are essential on multi-lane highways, and so are paved shoulders.
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 10:56:36 AM
Quote from: wxfree on August 12, 2016, 05:14:04 AM
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
What do they mean by "Super 2"?
A road with two lanes total (one in each direction) that has interchanges instead of intersections (or sometimes some of each). They're not that common, because if it is worthwhile for a road to have interchanges, it is usually also worthwhile for it to have multiple lanes in each direction.
Quote from: Brian556 on August 12, 2016, 11:01:13 AM
Quote from wxfree:
Quote
The widening projects I've seen the plans for call for widening the pavement and building shoulders. I'm not aware of any new four-laning without widening the road.
I'm not a fan of the narrow four-lane roads. I occasionally drive on US 183 from Austin to Lampasas. I can't say it's overtly hazardous, but the road doesn't feel right. I could see a highway like that being used for moderate speed in a built-up area, but it doesn't seem right for high speeds. Now the speed limit is being raised to 75 from Seward Junction to Lampasas, which is a small difference, but that road already doesn't seem right at 70.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this. I'd rather have a two-lane road with shoulders, or even a two-lane road without shoulders. I think it has to do with the appearance of a wide and spacious road, but without a median or shoulders, it's actually pretty restricted. Driving on a narrow two-lane road feels narrow, and you're aware of it. A narrow four-lane road doesn't have room for variances, but gives you the sense of it being a wide road. I think it feels funny to me because it tricks the senses into thinking it's a spacious road, but the logical mind knows that it isn't.
I'd suggest it may be better to add capacity cheaply by adding repeating passing lanes and keeping most of the road two-laned and shouldered.
I like your logic here, and agree with it. Half-assery is unsafe. 12 ft lanes are needed for semi's. Left turn lanes are essential on multi-lane highways, and so are paved shoulders.
Can't they just widen the shoulders lol?
Quote from: 1 on August 12, 2016, 11:03:13 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 10:56:36 AM
Quote from: wxfree on August 12, 2016, 05:14:04 AM
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
What do they mean by "Super 2"?
A road with two lanes total (one in each direction) that has interchanges instead of intersections (or sometimes some of each). They're not that common, because if it is worthwhile for a road to have interchanges, it is usually also worthwhile for it to have multiple lanes in each direction.
That's what I thought. I have yet to find a Super 2 in Texas. Or on a map. Can somebody give me an example of a Super 2 in Texas? I read on the Project Tracker that they are wanting to upgrade many various highways as "Super 2". They say "Upgrade To Super 2" or "Construct Super 2". such as S.H. 59 east of Bowie it says "Construct Super 2". Are they really going to add interchanges to it? :confused:
Despite what "1" posted, some jurisdictions will define a "Super-2" as limited-access instead of fully controlled access, or even define it as a 2-lane highway with improved geometry and fully paved shoulders yet retaining some private access. Hard to say what TxDOT defines it as without further research.
Quote from: 1because if it is worthwhile for a road to have interchanges, it is usually also worthwhile for it to have multiple lanes in each direction.
This is not entirely true. There are several examples where existing or potential safety concerns at intersections would prompt the need or desire for an interchange, yet traffic volumes are low enough to where a 4-lane roadway is not warranted or cost-justified.
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 11:23:42 AM
I have yet to find a Super 2 in Texas. Or on a map. Can somebody give me an example of a Super 2 in Texas?
TX-255, formerly the Camino Colombia. From I-35 almost to Mines Road.
TxDOT says that a Super 2 highway is "where a periodic passing lane is added to a two-lane rural highway to allow passing of slower vehicles and the dispersal of traffic platoons." An example of a full Super 2 design with interchanges is the southern half of the Chisholm Trail Parkway. It has two lanes, with occasional passing lanes, with full access control and a median barrier. Some people call that a two-lane freeway, but I don't consider a road to be a freeway unless it has at least two lanes in each direction. The US 67 bypass at the end of the CTP was a Super 2, with a couple of at-grades but mostly jughandle interchanges, before it was expanded to a freeway.
TxDOT source: http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/super_2_highways.htm (http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/super_2_highways.htm)
Quote from: wxfree on August 12, 2016, 05:14:04 AM
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
I believe it when I see it in regards US 183 from NW Austin to Lampasas. Traffic is increasing at a frightening rate. Yes there is a need for a continuous turn lane, but decrease the lanes from four to two just for some shoulders? Seriously doubt TxDot will constrict such an important highway in one of the fastest growing areas of Texas.
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2016, 01:50:57 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 11:23:42 AM
I have yet to find a Super 2 in Texas. Or on a map. Can somebody give me an example of a Super 2 in Texas?
TX-255, formerly the Camino Colombia. From I-35 almost to Mines Road.
The whole length of Loop/Toll 49 in Tyler.
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 11:23:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on August 12, 2016, 11:03:13 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 10:56:36 AM
Quote from: wxfree on August 12, 2016, 05:14:04 AM
TxDOT has some projects on the books which, consistent with my earlier opinions, I believe will improve some of the highways under discussion. Contracts scheduled to go out next year will convert narrow four-lane sections of highways into two-lane sections with shoulders and repeated passing lanes. This includes US 183 from northwest of Austin to Lampasas and US 281 from Lampasas to Burnet.
As an update, the expansion of US 281 north and south of Hamilton is complete. The last time I was out that way the work zone speed limit of 65 was still up and there was still work going, but that was months ago. The project tracker says the projects are essentially complete. Projects in the future will extend the super-2 work from Hico to Jacksboro, including contracts in Erath County scheduled for this month and further north over the next several years.
What do they mean by "Super 2"?
A road with two lanes total (one in each direction) that has interchanges instead of intersections (or sometimes some of each). They're not that common, because if it is worthwhile for a road to have interchanges, it is usually also worthwhile for it to have multiple lanes in each direction.
That's what I thought. I have yet to find a Super 2 in Texas. Or on a map. Can somebody give me an example of a Super 2 in Texas? I read on the Project Tracker that they are wanting to upgrade many various highways as "Super 2". They say "Upgrade To Super 2" or "Construct Super 2". such as S.H. 59 east of Bowie it says "Construct Super 2". Are they really going to add interchanges to it? :confused:
Some of these Super 2s will eventually be expanded into larger facilities. The SH249 extension through the Bryan district will be a Super 2 with future expansion to a 4 lane highway. The Houston district's portion will have 4 lanes.
http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/bryan/sh249.html
http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/houston/sh249-extension.html
Quote from: wtd67 on August 12, 2016, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2016, 01:50:57 PM
Quote from: In_Correct on August 12, 2016, 11:23:42 AM
I have yet to find a Super 2 in Texas. Or on a map. Can somebody give me an example of a Super 2 in Texas?
TX-255, formerly the Camino Colombia. From I-35 almost to Mines Road.
The whole length of Loop/Toll 49 in Tyler.
In Amarillo, for now:
* Loop 335/Tascosa Rd-RM 1061
* Loop 335/Osage
* Loop 335/Washington-FM 1541
Oh, I forgot abut Amarillo's 335! It's been more than 15 years since I last drove through Amarillo, though...
Parts of US-82 between Sherman and Paris have Super 2 designs, two-lane configurations with interchanges and room to add a second 2 lane roadway in the future.
US 59 has a 4 lane "poor boy" section from Teneha to Timpson (excluding the bridge spots where there are brief shoulders. Also that section has "Future I-69" signs along with a 75 (!!) mph posted speed limit on the rural section! Its a 4 lane poor boy, no shoulders, and actually feels quite "claustrophobic" (to me, anyway).
Arkansas did a "poor boy" conversion of the AR 89 bridge over the US 67 freeway in Cabot. It was once a 2 lane bridge, now a very narrow 4 lane bridge and you definitely feel "pinned in" when driving it. :O
Its funny reading this talk of dangerous four lanes, yet "superior" two lanes highways. Look, take the "poor man four lane" 290 Manor to Elgin and convert it to a Super whatever two lane road and see what happens to traffic. The same can be said of 183 out of Austin.
Yes, I would rather have shoulders and turn lane, but if I could not, I take a "poor man" four lane road any day.
Quote from: longhorn on August 24, 2016, 10:28:17 AM
Its funny reading this talk of dangerous four lanes, yet "superior" two lanes highways. Look, take the "poor man four lane" 290 Manor to Elgin and convert it to a Super whatever two lane road and see what happens to traffic. The same can be said of 183 out of Austin.
Yes, I would rather have shoulders and turn lane, but if I could not, I take a "poor man" four lane road any day.
I read somewhere that TxDOT's general policy is that the Super 2 design is suitable only for roads with traffic counts up to about 5,000. This change clearly isn't something that should be done everywhere. We seem to disagree over whether it should be done anywhere. My experience with repeated passing lanes, with intervals of two to five miles, is favorable. My experience with narrow 4s is not bad. I've never had any actual trouble with them, but I'm glad not to have frequent occasion to use them. I prefer a healthy margin of safety, but I don't think either option is an "any day" matter. Each segment of road has to be judged for its own characteristics.
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.0287647,-97.3346858,422m/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/@31.089029,-97.312406,620m/data=!3m1!1e3
A couple of examples around Temple, Texas of interchanges involving two lane roads.
Quote from: wxfree on August 24, 2016, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: longhorn on August 24, 2016, 10:28:17 AM
Its funny reading this talk of dangerous four lanes, yet "superior" two lanes highways. Look, take the "poor man four lane" 290 Manor to Elgin and convert it to a Super whatever two lane road and see what happens to traffic. The same can be said of 183 out of Austin.
Yes, I would rather have shoulders and turn lane, but if I could not, I take a "poor man" four lane road any day.
I read somewhere that TxDOT's general policy is that the Super 2 design is suitable only for roads with traffic counts up to about 5,000. This change clearly isn't something that should be done everywhere. We seem to disagree over whether it should be done anywhere. My experience with repeated passing lanes, with intervals of two to five miles, is favorable. My experience with narrow 4s is not bad. I've never had any actual trouble with them, but I'm glad not to have frequent occasion to use them. I prefer a healthy margin of safety, but I don't think either option is an "any day" matter. Each segment of road has to be judged for its own characteristics.
Thank you, that's a relief to know.
Quote from: wxfree on August 24, 2016, 09:09:32 PM
Quote from: longhorn on August 24, 2016, 10:28:17 AM
Its funny reading this talk of dangerous four lanes, yet "superior" two lanes highways. Look, take the "poor man four lane" 290 Manor to Elgin and convert it to a Super whatever two lane road and see what happens to traffic. The same can be said of 183 out of Austin.
Yes, I would rather have shoulders and turn lane, but if I could not, I take a "poor man" four lane road any day.
I read somewhere that TxDOT's general policy is that the Super 2 design is suitable only for roads with traffic counts up to about 5,000. This change clearly isn't something that should be done everywhere. We seem to disagree over whether it should be done anywhere. My experience with repeated passing lanes, with intervals of two to five miles, is favorable. My experience with narrow 4s is not bad. I've never had any actual trouble with them, but I'm glad not to have frequent occasion to use them. I prefer a healthy margin of safety, but I don't think either option is an "any day" matter. Each segment of road has to be judged for its own characteristics.
Well, you are right, north of Briggs to Lampasas, TXDot have turned a four lane 183 to two lanes with a middle turn lane. With traffic climbing in that corridor still a bad idea.