Worthy (or Acceptable) Control Cities

[SD Mapman]

I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.

See WYDOT changing the control city from Denver to Fort Collins heading south from Cheyenne.

[SD Mapman]

Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.

Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million.  Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction).  Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.

I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.

[hotdogPi]

Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.

Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million.  Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction).  Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.

I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.

Fargo and Bismarck (I-94) and Rochester, Sioux Falls, and Rapid City (I-90) are recognizable, as is Spokane. Billings is large enough but might not be recognizable.

Montana could be a control "city" for I-90 from Spokane and I-94 from North Dakota, which leaves only I-90 west from Rapid City as something without a clear option if only recognizable locations are allowed. (Billings is too unknown for its size, Gillette isn't large enough, Wyoming doesn't apply to most of the state, and Montana will have people confused why they're in Wyoming instead.)

[hobsini2]

I agree with a lot of this, but regarding the idea of designated "outside cities", I think the best option is to simply use the other state's list for whatever tiers are applicable.

I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.

So the idea of all of this was to try to blend both local and regional needs with national needs. Don't look at it as a specific road in the national sense but as a corridor between major cities. To me, if you are in Atlanta, more people would want to know how far and how to get to Charlotte than Greenville/Spartanburg.

[hobsini2]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Amesbury as a Tier 4 is fine. It's at the junction of 495 and 95. As for Hyannis, I believe more people have heard of that part of Cape Cod than Barnstable.

[hobsini2]

South Dakota
Tier 1: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
Tier 2: Pierre, Aberdeen
Tier 3: Sturgis, Deadwood, Mitchell, Yankton, Vermillion, Huron, Watertown, Brookings
Tier 4: Custer City, Hot Springs, Mobridge, Belle Fourche, Redfield, Sisseton, Winner
Outside cities: Minneapolis MN, Sioux City IA, Omaha NE, Gillette WY, Billings MT, Bismarck ND, Fargo ND

Missing Spearfish, only town with a state university and in the top 10 in population not on this list (it's fine everyone forgets we exist, not like we're a minor regional shopping and tourist destination or anything like that no).

SD's practice (which I think is similar to a lot of the West) is to add junctions as well, so you have Albert Lea as the control city heading east from Sioux Falls, not Minneapolis. In fact, I don't think Minneapolis is on any signs in SD come to think of it.

Spearfish is close enough to Deadwood and Belle Fourche that I did not use it. You can though.
As I said before, this is not specific to just interstates. US 212 does go to the Minneapolis area as does US 12. And Minneapolis is much more important than Albert Lea and La Crosse (by its size) is too small and too far away to use on I-90 from Sioux Falls.

[hobsini2]

Although I like how the list from West Virginia looks, to be realistic nothing in the Mountain State is important enough to be ranked in the Tier 1 category.

Tier 1 cities ought to have a metro population of at least 1 million.  Cities with metro populations over 250K could get bumped up to Tier 1 if they have any of the following (such as a state capitol, hub airport, large major university, large military base, deepwater port, or a major attraction).  Being a railroader, it seems like a major rail terminal ought to qualify, and perhaps any important rail transit facilities.

I mean per that standard signage on I-90 coming west from Chicago would refer to the Twin Cities and... Seattle? There's a lot of nothing out here per Eastern standards.

Fargo and Bismarck (I-94) and Rochester, Sioux Falls, and Rapid City (I-90) are recognizable, as is Spokane. Billings is large enough but might not be recognizable.

Montana could be a control "city" for I-90 from Spokane and I-94 from North Dakota, which leaves only I-90 west from Rapid City as something without a clear option if only recognizable locations are allowed. (Billings is too unknown for its size, Gillette isn't large enough, Wyoming doesn't apply to most of the state, and Montana will have people confused why they're in Wyoming instead.)

Billings is too unknown???
And you must have missed what I said about how I did the tiers. It is proportionate to population within a specific state and the importance to the state. Billings is by far the largest city in Montana so it certainly is Tier 1. And I'm sure that if you ask people from the Great Plains and the Pacific Northwest, most have heard of Billings.

[hobsini2]

I understand that in practice there are control cities that change just because a state line was crossed, due to differing practices between DOTs, but that's not really endorsed as a good practice by the MUTCD or anything, really.

See WYDOT changing the control city from Denver to Fort Collins heading south from Cheyenne.

Personally, I would have kept it Denver south of Cheyenne and have Ft Collins as a secondary.

[CtrlAltDel]

Holy moly, does that seem like a lot of work! You deserve some kudos for all this, since I think the overall structure is a good idea, but I can imagine people will quibble about specifics.

I wonder though if the tiers could be defined for the roads they'll be used on. Like, tier 1 is for all routes, tier 2 is for all routes except Interstates, tier 3 is for only two-laned state routes, etc.

[hobsini2]

Holy moly, does that seem like a lot of work! You deserve some kudos for all this, since I think the overall structure is a good idea, but I can imagine people will quibble about specifics.

I wonder though if the tiers could be defined for the roads they'll be used on. Like, tier 1 is for all routes, tier 2 is for all routes except Interstates, tier 3 is for only two-laned state routes, etc.

I didn't really think about it as for the specifics but I would say Tier 1 and 2 are for all roads. Obviously a Tier 1 city would be used over Tier 2 on the Interstates if the distance is not far say like 100 miles. Tier 3 for US Routes and major state highways. Tier 4 for all others. Tier 3 can be used as secondary controls on Interstates where needed.

[jp the roadgeek]

Connecticut
Tier 1: Hartford, Bridgeport
Tier 2: New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury
Tier 3: New London, Norwich, Stamford
Tier 4: Torrington, Willimantic, Storrs, Meriden
Outside cities: New York NY, Newburgh NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, Worcester MA, Boston MA, Providence RI

Stamford and Storrs do not appear as a control city anywhere in CT (or in the case of Stamford, anywhere in Westchester County).  There are a couple of other Tier 4 cities/towns that are used, mostly as end of routes. Norwalk, New Britain, Bristol, and Middletown would be additional Tier 4 cities (Norwalk on US 7, Bristol on CT 72, Middletown on CT 9, and New Britain on both).  Then there are a few towns that could get their own Tier 5 (all are end of route controls): Newington and Old Saybrook (CT 9), Wethersfield and Glastonbury (CT 3), Winsted (CT 8), and New Milford (US 7). 

[Ted$8roadFan]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.

All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.

Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.

[Roadgeekteen]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Amesbury isn't even the north end of I-495, that's Salisbury. Hyannis does exist, it's just technically a neighborhood of Hyannis.

[The Nature Boy]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.

All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.

Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.

It's the same thing as signing White River Junction in Vermont over the Town of Hartford.

The only use I can see for Montreal is as a secondary control city for I-93 north but only because it would be helpful for long distance drivers to know how to get to Montreal. Even then I'd be skeptical.

[Scott5114]

It qualifies for Tier 1 status. But I think Carson is Tier 2 because it is not as big a draw.

It's the state capital. If I'm a resident of Las Vegas it's the only place in Northern Nevada I might be required to visit, assuming I don't have a gaming job that requires me to travel to Reno. Sure, it's not as big as most state capitals, but then Nevada isn't as big as most states, either. (Population-wise, anyway. It's freakin' huge in terms of area.)

[DTComposer]

California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR

I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.

Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.

Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.

[The Nature Boy]

California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR

I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.

Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.

Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.

On this note - shouldn't Flagstaff, AZ be included an outside city in order to cover I-40?

[hobsini2]

I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.

[hobsini2]

Connecticut
Tier 1: Hartford, Bridgeport
Tier 2: New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury
Tier 3: New London, Norwich, Stamford
Tier 4: Torrington, Willimantic, Storrs, Meriden
Outside cities: New York NY, Newburgh NY, Albany NY, Springfield MA, Worcester MA, Boston MA, Providence RI

Stamford and Storrs do not appear as a control city anywhere in CT (or in the case of Stamford, anywhere in Westchester County).  There are a couple of other Tier 4 cities/towns that are used, mostly as end of routes. Norwalk, New Britain, Bristol, and Middletown would be additional Tier 4 cities (Norwalk on US 7, Bristol on CT 72, Middletown on CT 9, and New Britain on both).  Then there are a few towns that could get their own Tier 5 (all are end of route controls): Newington and Old Saybrook (CT 9), Wethersfield and Glastonbury (CT 3), Winsted (CT 8), and New Milford (US 7). 

If you want to use Greenwich instead of Stamford, go for it. I used Storrs because of the state university.

[hobsini2]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.

All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.

Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.

Amesbury looks bigger and is close enough to the terminus of 495 that I used it.

As for Burlington, that is the only city with any size in Vermont. And Montreal is not that far away that it would be inappropriate to use as a control in Massachusetts.
Boston is 319 miles. Springfield is 303 miles. That's closer than Chicago is to Cleveland or Minneapolis.

[hobsini2]

California
Tier 1: Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose
Tier 2: Oakland, Anaheim, Fresno, Bakersfield, Palm Springs, Long Beach
Tier 3: Modesto, Riverside, San Bernardino, Stockton, Redding, South lake Tahoe, Napa, Monterey, Santa Barbara, Pasadena, Modesto, Lancaster
Tier 4: Oceanside, Escondido, Barstow, Merced, Chico, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Eureka, Yreka, Yuba City, Bishop, Salinas, Ventura, San Luis Obispo, El Centro, Blythe, Santa Monica, Irvine, Temecula, Santa Ana
Outside cities: Tijuana MX, Mexicali MX, Yuma AZ, Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno, NV, Portland OR, Eugene OR

I think the case can be made to include Stockton, Santa Barbara, and either San Bernardino or Riverside in Tier 2.

Also, are you treating CA-99 as an Interstate or US equivalent? In that case, having Modesto/Merced/Chico/Yuba City on this list makes sense, but I would add Visalia in Tier 3.

Monterey is on CA-1 (but not US-101), so if we're treating it the same way as CA-99, then Santa Cruz should be included in Tier 3.

The tier list is not a hard line. If you want to elevate Riverside, Stockton and Santa Barbara to Tier 2, go for it. All 3 are possible.
I did add Flagstaff to the outside cities for California.

[Flint1979]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

[US 89]

Utah
Tier 1: Salt Lake City
Tier 2: Provo, Ogden, St George
Tier 3: Logan, Brigham City, Cedar City, Moab, Nephi, Park City
Tier 4: Tremonton, Beaver, Richfield, Green River, Fillmore, Kanab, Price, Blanding, Vernal, Duchesne
Outside cities: Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno NV, Portland OR, Boise ID, Pocatello ID, Cheyenne WY, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM

My thoughts:

- Move Logan up to tier 2. It's the only metropolitan area not there yet and is home to the second-largest public university in the state (Utah State).
- Heber City isn't anywhere in here. That should be at least tier 4 if not 3. Pretty significant mountain destination and now also bedroom community for the Wasatch Front.
- Bump Price up to tier 3. Big enough for a micropolitan area, home to USU Eastern (previously College of Eastern Utah), and by far the largest city and regional hub for Eastern Utah.
- Drop Nephi down to tier 4. It's smaller than even a lot of the tier 4 cities and not much of a destination in its own right.
- Add Morgan, Delta, and Roosevelt to tier 4.
- Monticello in addition to or instead of Blanding? Monticello is a little smaller but is more regionally significant because it is where the 191/491 junction is.
- Could drop Beaver entirely as it is pretty small and not really a major junction.
- Remove Duchesne entirely - even though it's a decent road junction, 191 doesn't get much use over there and it's far smaller than any other tier 4 city. Roosevelt is 4x bigger.
- Portland is too far, especially because a lot of long distance NW traffic would split off 82 to go to Seattle. Boise covers that direction just fine.

[pianocello]

Also in Indiana, the out-of-state list should include something in western Kentucky to capture the southwest corner of the state, now that there's an Interstate that goes in that direction. Paducah or Henderson would work.

As for something heading into western KY, if you notice, I used Memphis TN instead. For the outside cities, I wanted to use bigger cities when possible. I did the same thing in Tennessee to go north by using Indianapolis.

That's on me and my poor reading comprehension. I do think there's a balance to be made between major cities vs. mid-size closer cities out of state, I guess I would lean towards the latter if I were doing this exercise.

I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.

I have Gainesville as a Tier 2.

To me, this was completely unexpected to the point where I didn't even look for it in the Tier 2 list. Probably goes down to the fact that FDOT doesn't include it as a control city on I-75 at all IRL. Cheers.

[Dirt Roads]

I think Gainesville FL should be considered on at least Tier 4, maybe even Tier 3. It's comparable in size to Ocala, and well-known throughout the state due to the university.

I have Gainesville as a Tier 2.

To me, this was completely unexpected to the point where I didn't even look for it in the Tier 2 list. Probably goes down to the fact that FDOT doesn't include it as a control city on I-75 at all IRL. Cheers.

My original thought is that the University of Florida bumps up Gainesville from a Tier 3 to a Tier 2.  Wrong am I.  I can't fathom how (or when) Gainesville got to be over 250K population (Gainesville MSA is now just a hair over 420K).  [For the record, the last time I was actually in Gainesville proper was when I went to see Emmitt Smith play.  The fans started throwing oranges at their own bench when Galen Hall pulled him out of the game early in the third quarter.  He had already racked up 170+ yards against a fairly good Mississippi State defense, IIRC.]