Worthy (or Acceptable) Control Cities

[The Nature Boy]

Massachusetts
Tier 1: Boston, Springfield
Tier 2: Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, Lawrence
Tier 3: Hyannis, Fitchburg, Plymouth, Salem, Cape Cod, Fall River, Taunton, Foxborough
Tier 4: Greenfield, Pittsfield, Amherst, North Adams, Amesbury, Gloucester
Outside cities: Providence RI, Hartford CT, New York NY, Albany NY, Burlington VT, Concord NH, Portland ME, Montreal QU

Amesbury doesn't deserve control city status of any type.

Hyannis doesn't actually exist. Check a map of Massachusetts's 351 municipalities, and you won't find it.

Hyannis is a real place, especially for Cape Codders and visitors who need to obtain the goods and services that aren't found in their own communities (and to catch the ferry to the islands). It isn't an official place, but one most people know. Although it is in the Town of Barnstable, people think of the village of Barnstable on MA-6A. In fact, most of the Town is better known for its villages than the town itself.

All due respect to Amesbury, but it isn't a control city, only because of the junction of 95/495.

Burlington and Montreal are too far from the Commonwealth to justify its use here.

Amesbury looks bigger and is close enough to the terminus of 495 that I used it.

As for Burlington, that is the only city with any size in Vermont. And Montreal is not that far away that it would be inappropriate to use as a control in Massachusetts.
Boston is 319 miles. Springfield is 303 miles. That's closer than Chicago is to Cleveland or Minneapolis.

I can see Montreal as a secondary control on I-93 north out of Boston since it's helpful to know that you're going towards Montreal (the next "big" city north of Boston).

But Burlington wouldn't make sense in Massachusetts - if only because you pass through Manchester and Concord in NH before you get there.

[mgk920]

Maybe WisDOT should use 'Fox Valley' (the colloquial name of the metro area) instead of 'Fond du Lac' as the control for NB I-41 in the Milwaukee, WI area.

Mike

[DTComposer]

I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.

Duly noted, but your opening post says

let's take a different approach for Interstate and US Highway control cities.

so perhaps that's why there's some confusion about state highways. I, and perhaps others, skipped over replies about states of which I have less knowledge where you may have said state highways were included as well. Consider modifying the opening post?

[JayhawkCO]

Colorado
Tier 1: Denver, Colorado Springs
Tier 2: Boulder, Grand Junction, Pueblo, Ft Collins
Tier 3: Aurora, Greeley, Estes Park, Aspen
Tier 4: Durango, Vail, Montrose, Eagle, Steamboat Springs, Ft Morgan, Sterling, Trinidad, La Junta, Lamar, Limon, Burlington, Alamosa, Walsenburg, Rifle
Outside cities: Topeka KS, Dodge City KS, Omaha NE, North Platte NE, Cheyenne WY, Laramie WY, Salt lake City UT, Moab UT, Las Vegas NV, Albuquerque NM, Santa Fe NM

Not too much to quibble with. Tier 1 and 2 are fine. Maybe Greeley could move up to 2. I might add Vail to Tier 3, since I've often wondered if we should have a "mountain" control city for I-70 instead of all the way to Grand Junction. I would remove Eagle from Tier 4 as the only thing there is Vail's airport (not any junctions there either). I would also probably use Hays or Salina instead of Topeka for the outside cities.

[GaryV]

Michigan
Tier 1: Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids
Tier 2: Flint, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor, Sault Ste Marie, Benton Harbor/St Joseph, Port Huron, Pontiac, Muskegon
Tier 3: Saginaw, Marquette, Escanaba, Mackinaw City, Traverse City, Holland, Bay City, Jackson, Battle Creek, Mt Pleasant
Tier 4: Menominee, Iron Mountain, Houghton, Ironwood, St Ignace, Grayling, Alpena, Petoskey, Ludington, Marshall, Monroe, Niles, Cadillac
Outside cities: Toledo OH, Indianapolis IN, Ft Wayne IN, Chicago IL, Green Bay WI, Duluth MN, Toronto ON, London ON, Buffalo NY

You need to include some of the Tier 2 cities on the 2di's as Tier 1 instead, or you run out of control cities before you run out of road. For example, Muskegon and Port Huron because I-96 and I-94 don't end in GR and Detroit, respectively. You also need something on I-69 beside Lansing. And obviously, anything on I-75 north of Detroit.

Cadillac has to move up to at least Tier 3, maybe 2. Holland and Jackson should be Tier2. Alpena, Ironwood and Petoskey should be 3.

What about north of Houghton? I know Copper Harbor is little, but the road does end there.

For the outside cities, there's no need for Indianapolis if you have Fort Wayne. South Bend should be included for US-31. Windsor should be there, unless you will allow the generic "Canada". And if you have Windsor and London, or generic Canada, you don't need Toronto. Buffalo is right out.

[jaehak]

Great work here! Interesting idea.

On Kansas -  I think it's interesting that the smallest of your tier 2 cities (Salina) gets by far the most signage, but it makes sense given the location. OP isn't really signed anywhere at all, but probably should be on 435 and certainly should be on southbound 635 from 70 or so, and on 69 coming off 35. My one disagreement is on St. Louis, I don't think it makes sense to sign it anywhere in Kansas.

Lawrence, of course, should be signed on every inbound milage sign and junction on 70, 24, 40, 59, and every road that feeds into them 

[JayhawkCO]

Great work here! Interesting idea.

On Kansas -  I think it's interesting that the smallest of your tier 2 cities (Salina) gets by far the most signage, but it makes sense given the location. OP isn't really signed anywhere at all, but probably should be on 435 and certainly should be on southbound 635 from 70 or so, and on 69 coming off 35. My one disagreement is on St. Louis, I don't think it makes sense to sign it anywhere in Kansas.

Lawrence, of course, should be signed on every inbound milage sign and junction on 70, 24, 40, 59, and every road that feeds into them 

No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.

[hobsini2]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

[hobsini2]

Utah
Tier 1: Salt Lake City
Tier 2: Provo, Ogden, St George
Tier 3: Logan, Brigham City, Cedar City, Moab, Nephi, Park City
Tier 4: Tremonton, Beaver, Richfield, Green River, Fillmore, Kanab, Price, Blanding, Vernal, Duchesne
Outside cities: Phoenix AZ, Las Vegas NV, Reno NV, Portland OR, Boise ID, Pocatello ID, Cheyenne WY, Denver CO, Albuquerque NM

My thoughts:

- Move Logan up to tier 2. It's the only metropolitan area not there yet and is home to the second-largest public university in the state (Utah State).
- Heber City isn't anywhere in here. That should be at least tier 4 if not 3. Pretty significant mountain destination and now also bedroom community for the Wasatch Front.
- Bump Price up to tier 3. Big enough for a micropolitan area, home to USU Eastern (previously College of Eastern Utah), and by far the largest city and regional hub for Eastern Utah.
- Drop Nephi down to tier 4. It's smaller than even a lot of the tier 4 cities and not much of a destination in its own right.
- Add Morgan, Delta, and Roosevelt to tier 4.
- Monticello in addition to or instead of Blanding? Monticello is a little smaller but is more regionally significant because it is where the 191/491 junction is.
- Could drop Beaver entirely as it is pretty small and not really a major junction.
- Remove Duchesne entirely - even though it's a decent road junction, 191 doesn't get much use over there and it's far smaller than any other tier 4 city. Roosevelt is 4x bigger.
- Portland is too far, especially because a lot of long distance NW traffic would split off 82 to go to Seattle. Boise covers that direction just fine.

I got no problem with Logan being Tier 2. 
I used Park City instead of Heber City but you could change that.
I left Roosevelt off because Vernal is where the junction with 191 is. Morgan is not a big enough draw. Delta should be added.
You do make a case for Monticello over Blanding.

[hobsini2]

I will try to say this again. The tiers are not just for the interstates. They are for US Highways and major state highways. Please understand that. I have had to say this like 4 times now.

Duly noted, but your opening post says

let's take a different approach for Interstate and US Highway control cities.

so perhaps that's why there's some confusion about state highways. I, and perhaps others, skipped over replies about states of which I have less knowledge where you may have said state highways were included as well. Consider modifying the opening post?

Fair enough. No harm, no foul.

[jaehak]

No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.

670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.

[JayhawkCO]

No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.

670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.

But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.

[tmoore952]

Sort of related, will post it here.

On business trip yesterday, I took US 13 north to Salisbury MD, to take US 50 west. US 13 and 50 form an expressway to the north and east of Salisbury. US 13 north and US 50 west are concurrent for a couple miles until US 13 exits to go north. There was a sign right before the US 13 north exit that said
"Philadelphia
NY/NJ
Use 13 North"  (13 was in a US shield, to be clear)

[Flint1979]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.

[GaryV]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.

Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.

As a non Michigander I had to look up Waterford but I knew Pontiac. Guessing native Michiganders know both. I'd use Flint over either of them.

[Flint1979]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.

Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.

Pontiac makes some sense there. But on US-24 I think Waterford makes more sense than Pontiac. I'm not understanding how a city qualifies for a tier here.

[tmoore952]

Intrastate for a small state like Delaware, the control cities are givens. The state is so narrow that Dover would be Tier 1 by default since it is practically in the geographical middle of the state, and all the main N-S roads that go that far south deal with Dover one way or another.

Having just been near the southern end of the state, Lewes gets a lot of attention due to it being one terminus of the Cape May Lewes Ferry. When I crossed the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel yesterday going northbound, the first sign I saw on the Eastern Shore said "Cape May Lewes Ferry 140 miles" (I realize this is "out of state" as far as DE is concerned)

[hobsini2]

I'm not sure what needs to be done to be qualified for a tier but I'm assuming these are for Interstate and US highways. Michigan is the only state I'll account for. My first one would be Pontiac I'm guessing this might be for US-24 which runs on the west side of Pontiac, actually Waterford would be better if this is for US-24. Mackinaw City is alright for US-23 and US-31 in the area but not I-75. For outside cities Indianapolis, Duluth, Toronto, London and Buffalo all seem pretty far out of the way to use in Michigan. The ones you picked would work fine though.

Bay City is used once on I-75 where Mackinac Bridge should be used but it's kind of a local exit so it's not a big deal.

I used Pontiac because it is a well known suburb of Detroit over Waterford. I used Mackinaw City because again its a well known place. I tried avoiding the use of bridges but the Mackinaw Br could be an exception. The outside cities are more for areas close to the border. More traffic would be interested in knowing Indianapolis is a certain direction over Ft Wayne for example.

Waterford is pretty well known. Mackinac Bridge is much more well known than Mackinaw City. Fort Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and comes before Indianapolis so I don't see where in Michigan you'd use Indianapolis, not saying you couldn't because I-69 and US-31 would be two that you could do it on, South Bend and Fort Wayne make sense because one is right across the border pretty much and the other one is 50 miles into Indiana.

Pontiac is a control city on M-59 (e.g. at the M-53, I-75 and I-96 exits to M-59). But that doesn't make it worthy of a Tier 2.

Pontiac makes some sense there. But on US-24 I think Waterford makes more sense than Pontiac. I'm not understanding how a city qualifies for a tier here.

The tiers are broken down by 2 factors. Population relative to the state and by importance like if it is a city with a major university or transportation hub. I'm sure there will be disagreements.

[Flint1979]

I think Saginaw should be more than a Tier 3.

[mrsman]

No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.

670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.

But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.

I'm glad to see that Des Moines is not on the list for Kansas.  It seems that the current practice in KS in the KC Metro area is to sign for the next control city even before reaching Downtown KC.  The current usage of Des Moines is very bad and hobsini is wise for removing it.

I realize that there may be some level of confusion or provincialism regarding the two KC's.  Regardless the only appropriate control for I-35 north of Wichita is Kansas City within the state of Kansas, and that control can be changed to "Downtown KC, MO" north of I-635.

I feel similarly about I-70's control within Kansas that it should not be St. Louis.  Kansas City is an appropriate control until I-435 and from that point the control can switch to "Downtown KC, MO". 

At the current 670/70 split appropriate controls for this road is both "Downtown KC, MO" and St. Louis.  70's control can read "Downtown KC, MO" and Independence.  Both 670 and 70 do go to Downtown, and while 670 seems to be closer to more of the regional destinations that make Downtown (like convention center and sports arenas), 70 seems to have more exits to actually reach more of the Downtown.  And definitely, for any Topeka-St Louis traffic that isn't bypassing KC completely, 670  is far more direct through Downtown than 70.

The KC freeway loop is definitely a conundrum.  If I had magic powers, I would realign some of the highways for simplification:

I-670 removed for simplification and replaced with I-70. US 40 and US 24 should only be mentioned on supplemental signage when they leave a roadway in the area.  For the most part, these routes follow the new I-70 through central KC and should be silent in the area.  This means that the entire southern leg of the loop with continuing sections is simply I-70 and silent US 40 and US 24.

The current I-70 between the NW corner of the loop and 670/70 should be 670.

The northern and western legs of the loop are only I-35.

The eastern leg of the loop is combined I-29 and US 71.

[MATraveler128]

I'll say New London, CT is an ok choice for I-95 in Connecticut from New Haven, but I'd rather see Providence also mentioned since most people heading past New Haven are likely going towards Rhode Island. However, I don't like the use of Groton in New London.

[JayhawkCO]

No St. Louis on I-670 East? I think that is completely reasonable there.

670 East isn't signed for anything on the Kansas side now. If it were, "Downtown" would be the way to go.

But I-70 East at the split also serves Downtown, just the north side of it.

I'm glad to see that Des Moines is not on the list for Kansas.  It seems that the current practice in KS in the KC Metro area is to sign for the next control city even before reaching Downtown KC.  The current usage of Des Moines is very bad and hobsini is wise for removing it.

I realize that there may be some level of confusion or provincialism regarding the two KC's.  Regardless the only appropriate control for I-35 north of Wichita is Kansas City within the state of Kansas, and that control can be changed to "Downtown KC, MO" north of I-635.

I feel similarly about I-70's control within Kansas that it should not be St. Louis.  Kansas City is an appropriate control until I-435 and from that point the control can switch to "Downtown KC, MO". 

At the current 670/70 split appropriate controls for this road is both "Downtown KC, MO" and St. Louis.  70's control can read "Downtown KC, MO" and Independence.  Both 670 and 70 do go to Downtown, and while 670 seems to be closer to more of the regional destinations that make Downtown (like convention center and sports arenas), 70 seems to have more exits to actually reach more of the Downtown.  And definitely, for any Topeka-St Louis traffic that isn't bypassing KC completely, 670  is far more direct through Downtown than 70.

The KC freeway loop is definitely a conundrum.  If I had magic powers, I would realign some of the highways for simplification:

I-670 removed for simplification and replaced with I-70. US 40 and US 24 should only be mentioned on supplemental signage when they leave a roadway in the area.  For the most part, these routes follow the new I-70 through central KC and should be silent in the area.  This means that the entire southern leg of the loop with continuing sections is simply I-70 and silent US 40 and US 24.

The current I-70 between the NW corner of the loop and 670/70 should be 670.

The northern and western legs of the loop are only I-35.

The eastern leg of the loop is combined I-29 and US 71.

I don't understand why you think Des Moines is bad in KCK.

[Flint1979]

Really what is so bad about Des Moines being the control city in Kansas City? It's the next major city north on I-35 what's the problem here? I don't at all see how it's a bad choice.

[Flint1979]

In Detroit they start using Toledo as the control city at McNichols (Six Mile) Road and that's before you get downtown. When Kansas changes the control city to Des Moines you are already in Kansas City and using Kansas City, MO is just going to be confusing especially considering you are already in Kansas City. I-35 is a through route just like I-75 is in Detroit why wouldn't you use the next city?