I've realized I'm a big fan of non-Interstate freeways. LOL

[OCGuy81]

California's got plenty of non-interstate freeways for your enjoyment.  we've even got a few unnumbered ones!

Word! (probably dating myself a bit there!) A lot of California's state freeways, especially in OC and SD County seem to be in a lot better shape than a lot of full fledged interstates (I'm looking at you I-5 in Portland, for an example!)

[Road Hog]

The urban areas of Texas have pretty impressive non interstate freeways.

Dallas has several, both free and tolled, which carry a bunch of traffic. US 75 north into Oklahoma may be the busiest non-interstate truck route in the country.

[bugo]

I like city and county freeways the best.

[kphoger]

there is no freeway in the country that does not have an "M" next to its number.

Yes, but a good number of them have the M anyway as in A1(M).

All of the freeways in California are Interstates.
"No, look, there are state highways."
"Yes, but a good number of them have I- shields."

Thank you so much for the logical parallel!  Here's another one:

– All state highways are paved.
– Huh?  There are several gravel state highways.  For example, part of Minnesota 74.
– But a good many of them are paved.  My point stands.

[agentsteel53]

US 75 north into Oklahoma may be the busiest non-interstate truck route in the country.

more than CA-99?  that would be my candidate.

[myosh_tino]

But other than the roadgeeky wow factor of scoping out various states' non-Interstate freeways, what is the benefit of keeping these roads US routes or state routes? Or on the flip side, what is the negative of having designating freeways as Interstates? The costs of resigning and temporary motorist confusion are the only possibilities I can think of.

As I see it, the upside of making these freeways Interstates is that it helps keep expectations in check: I = freeway, SR/US = something less

But the downside would be running out of 3DIs which would be the case in California.  The following are either entirely freeways or have freeway segments...

* US Routes: 101, 50
* California State Routes: 1, 2, 4, 12, 13, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 29, 44, 47, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 60, 65, 71, 73, 78, 84, 85, 87, 91, 92, 99, 103, 110, 118, 120, 125, 126, 133, 134, 163, 168, 170, 180, 237, 241, 242, 261, 330. (I may have missed a few but you get the point)

Many of these routes don't intersect a current 2DI (5, 8, 10, 15, 40, 80) so giving them a 3DI is impossible.

[briantroutman]

But the downside would be running out of 3DIs which would be the case in California.  The following are either entirely freeways or have freeway segments...

I completely agree–and I meant that freeways should be included where they fit. So if there's no 2DI, the freeway certainly wouldn't work as a 3DI.

That said, many of the ones you listed would fit as 3DIs if any of I-3, I-7/I-9, extended I-40, etc. designations ever came into being–of which clearly the I-7/I-9 would be the most likely and impact a large number of spur routes.

[Duke87]

Er? The UK has a bunch of A-road freeways. You'd never know from a map, however.

Example: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/a38-devon

Huh.

Well then, that makes the situation over there worse. At least our freeways show up on maps as freeways even if they aren't interstates.
The question then is, why is that particular road not classified as a motorway?

Anyways, this is why determining line color based solely on classification is stupid unless you've compulsively matched classification with level of improvement.

[31E]

I agree with the OP: I'm a big fan of non-Interstate freeways, and I think it's really cool for a freeway to be part of an all-purpose route system. Not every freeway needs to be an Interstate, and it often makes more sense for a freeway to be a US Route, state route, or even a county route than an Interstate.

Missed those Can you list IN? the 50 stub crosses the boarder.
Non Interstate Freeways that are....Interstate!

Based on a cursory examination of my 2011 Rand McNally and Google Maps, I have found that nationwide there are 27 non-Interstate freeways that cross state lines. 26 of these exist in two states, and 1 exists in three states (US 22 in PA, WV, and OH). NY/NJ 440 is unusual, in that it originates in New Jersey, crosses into New York, and then crosses back into New Jersey. As near as I can tell the Merritt Parkway/Hutchinson River Parkway couplet is the oldest, with the interstate connection built around 1938, predating the Interstates by two decades.

Below is the full list of the 25. If there's any freeway I missed please point it out:

US 80: Georgia-Alabama
Merritt Parkway/Hutchinson River Parkway: New York-Connecticut
US 50: Indiana-Illinois
US 24: Indiana-Ohio
US 31: Michigan-Indiana
US 151: Iowa-Wisconsin
US 50: DC-Maryland
US 3: New Hampshire-Massachusetts
MA 24/RI 24: Massachusetts-Rhode Island
MA 146/RI 146: Massachusetts-Rhode Island
US 23: Michigan-Ohio
US 78: Alabama-Mississippi
NY 440/NJ 440: New York-New Jersey-New York
NJ 444/NY 982L (Garden State Parkway): New Jersey-New York
NJ 445/NY 987C (Palisades Interstate Parkway): New Jersey-New York
US 29: Virginia-North Carolina
US 22: Ohio-West Virginia-Pennsylvania
US 50: Ohio-West Virginia
US 75: Texas-Oklahoma
PA 43/WV 43: Pennsylvania-West Virginia
US 15: Pennsylvania-New York
US 202: Pennsylvania-New Jersey
US 1: Pennsylvania-New Jersey
PA 90/NJ 90: Pennsylvania-New Jersey
US 322: Pennsylvania-New Jersey
KY 9003/US 45E (Purchase Parkway): Kentucky-Tennessee
US 35: Ohio-West Virginia

[hbelkins]

We'd have to go to the videotape (or Google or Bing aerial imagery) to determine if these should qualify:

1.) US 51/Purchase Parkway to US 45E, KY-TN. There's a continuous four-lane here, but it switches from US 51 to US 45E. Off the top of my head, I can't remember how far south 45E remains a full freeway.

2.) US 35, WV-OH. I'm pretty sure it's a full freeway north of the Ohio River, but I can't remember how far south of the WV 2 interchange it remains a freeway.

[english si]

Well then, that makes the situation over there worse. At least our freeways show up on maps as freeways even if they aren't interstates.

That would drive me mad if applied here. It works over there as all signs are green. But to have green-signed roads shown in blue just as it is a freeway, would really bug me.

We have a system, you have a system - just because our system is different to your doesn't mean that ours doesn't work.

UK mapping gets round this 'problem' you cite with either white/yellow/red/green/blue dots (depending on road colour) to mark interchanges or showing all sliproads. It is quite clear from UK mapping which roads are freeway-esque and which are not.

The question then is, why is that particular road not classified as a motorway?

Cross-section, vertical and horizontal curvature, nature of junctions (tight slip roads) - exactly the same reasons why it wouldn't be an interstate.

OK, that is a bit of a red herring, as motorway is a legal status, not a set of design standards. It is not a motorway because it is not a special road limited to Classes I and II, but rather a right of way. To make it a motorway, you'd need to create an alternate route for Tractors, Cyclists, etc (as the right of way is a right that cannot be unbroken: to make a track on your land private there needs to be a gate that is locked at least 1 day a year to prove that it isn't open-access. If people have had access for 25 years, it becomes a legally enshrined right of way that you cannot deny access to. Special roads are the only ungated roads that are not right of ways) and a legal order declaring it such. The A38 was online upgrades and short bypasses, so a parallel local access road would have been needed between the villages to maintain the right of way.

Anyways, this is why determining line color based solely on classification is stupid unless you've compulsively matched classification with level of improvement.

So the fact that map colours (well green and blue) match sign colours is stupid unless the sign colours are about road standards, rather than route importance and legal rights of access respectively?

I'd rather have important routes signed and mapped in green and blue (with the difference being rights of access) than have routes coloured solely by quality - there's other ways of doing that (thickness, etc) which UK maps do (French Michelin does it best, but their colour scheme means that UK map-lovers don't have much love for them due to that - though as they are excellently drawn, clear and at least they have the same distinctions in colour (even though different colours) there isn't the hate there is for Google's ugly and hard-to-use maps).

We navigate differently, we are not stupid for doing so: to think that our way of navigating is stupid is stupid and cultural imperialism to boot.

[31E]

We'd have to go to the videotape (or Google or Bing aerial imagery) to determine if these should qualify:

1.) US 51/Purchase Parkway to US 45E, KY-TN. There's a continuous four-lane here, but it switches from US 51 to US 45E. Off the top of my head, I can't remember how far south 45E remains a full freeway.

Checking with Google Earth, the Purchase Parkway continues into Tennessee as US 45E for half a mile before its first at-grade intersection. In addition, there is a freeway interchange in Tennessee. That's indisputably a freeway, and I'll add that one to the list.

2.) US 35, WV-OH. I'm pretty sure it's a full freeway north of the Ohio River, but I can't remember how far south of the WV 2 interchange it remains a freeway.

In US 35's case there are interchanges on both sides of the border and it continues for a mile into West Virginia before the first at-grade intersection in West Virginia. So it counts too.

Well then, that makes the situation over there worse. At least our freeways show up on maps as freeways even if they aren't interstates.

That would drive me mad if applied here. It works over there as all signs are green. But to have green-signed roads shown in blue just as it is a freeway, would really bug me.

Why should the color of the lines have anything to do with the sign colors? Signs on Interstates in the U.S. are green but the most popular road atlases mark them as blue lines, along with all other freeways. Rand McNally uses green only for tolled freeways. I personally would prefer blue for freeways, purple for tolled freeways, and green for expressways.

Cross-section, vertical and horizontal curvature, nature of junctions (tight slip roads) - exactly the same reasons why it wouldn't be an interstate.

OK, that is a bit of a red herring, as motorway is a legal status, not a set of design standards. It is not a motorway because it is not a special road limited to Classes I and II, but rather a right of way. To make it a motorway, you'd need to create an alternate route for Tractors, Cyclists, etc (as the right of way is a right that cannot be unbroken: to make a track on your land private there needs to be a gate that is locked at least 1 day a year to prove that it isn't open-access. If people have had access for 25 years, it becomes a legally enshrined right of way that you cannot deny access to. Special roads are the only ungated roads that are not right of ways) and a legal order declaring it such. The A38 was online upgrades and short bypasses, so a parallel local access road would have been needed between the villages to maintain the right of way.

The way I get it, motorway status in the U.K. is contingent on whether the road has what we would call "freeway restrictions" rather than the road being a freeway of a certain standard. In the U.S. any road that meets the standards can become an Interstate - whether it actually becomes an Interstate is another matter, and that's where it starts to get really interesting.

We have a system, you have a system - just because our system is different to your doesn't mean that ours doesn't work.

Your system works, but as a very American roadgeek I'd argue the American mapping system is better. The degree varies, but "a freeway is a freeway is a freeway" is standard operating procedure in the U.S. In the most widespread atlases, the shield the road carries is irrelevant - the only thing that matters is the type of roadway it is. I do admit American classifications have as many if not more quirks than British classifications. Interstate 587 in Kingston, New York is part of the Interstate system but could easily masquerade as an arterial road, whereas Sam Cooper Boulevard in Memphis, Tennessee is a much bigger freeway but is unshielded and maintained by the city.

EDIT: In the list so far, the state with the most of these routes is Pennsylvania with 7, followed by New Jersey with 6, New York and Ohio with 5, and West Virginia with 4.

[froggie]

Some notes and additional, arranged by route number:

- Although not shown as a freeway on maps, US 1/25/78/278 at Augusta, GA shows some freeway characteristics in the field.
- US 15 MD/PA comes close...depending on how far into a state you consider.
- US 25 SC/NC comes close...freeway on the NC side, but I don't remember where the first at-grade is.
- US 25E KY/TN under Cumberland Gap could arguably be called a yes, as it's controlled-access through the park and tunnel, anchored by interchanges on each end.
- Does US 30 OH/WV count?
- US 34 IA/IL.
- US 36 KS/MO.
- Although not at present, the bridge is under construction that'll add MN 36/WI 64 to the list in a few years.
- As with US 15 above, an argument could be made for US 45 MS/TN...the first at-grade is about a half-mile north of the state line.
- An argument could be made for the new US 93 bridge near Hoover Dam (AZ/NV).
- US 151 IA/WI also includes US 61.
- Although not shown very well on maps, US 271 OK/AR would apply.
- DC 295/MD 201 (yes, it's officially MD 201 until Kenilworth Ave splits off and the Baltimore-Washington Pkwy begins at the US 50 interchange).
- US 395 NV/CA north of Reno either is or comes pretty darn close.


Although not being counted on this list, there are two Super-2s that would otherwise qualify:  US 52 WV/OH, and VT 279/NY-whatever-the-reference-route-is.

[NE2]

NJ/NY 495. US 22 PA-NJ. PA 611-NJ 94. Several crossings of GW Parkway and VA 27 across the Boundary Channel between Virginia and DC (though an at-grade ped crossing northbound may disqualify one or more), as well as US 50 (the merge with I-66 happens on the DC side of the line). The Peace Bridge, US-bound only. US 78 TN-MS (making this a three-state until I-22). World Trade International Bridge (trucks only?). CA 905 (until I-905). US 2 MN-WI, maybe. West Entrance Road MT-WY, according to the Henries at the Goog. LOL

[english si]

Why should the color of the lines have anything to do with the sign colors?

But why should they not in the UK, where sign colours are a key navigational feature telling you the importance of the road? Sure, in the US and other places, every road will be green, which is silly, but we were talking UK.

And why should the colour of the lines have anything to do with route quality? Why can't line style tell you that, freeing up colour to mark route importance as happens in Europe?

Signs on Interstates in the U.S. are green but the most popular road atlases mark them as blue lines, along with all other freeways.

Yes, but almost all signs are green in the US (as I said). You missed my point here - in the US, sign colour is unrelated to importance or quality of the road so is irrelevant for mapping, however in the UK it signifies importance (and often quality).

I personally would prefer ... purple for tolled freeways

like the toll-specific signs...

Purple is a better colour for toll routes than green - though to scupper your love of it, UK maps often show the M6Toll with some element of purple (normally a thin middle line in the thick blue one to make it stand out as unique, not as there's purple signs).

Your system works, but as a very American roadgeek I'd argue the American mapping system is better.

For America, yes it is. I didn't say otherwise - my only mentions of the American network were to say that you don't have the sign thing, and that the design standards for interstates thing.

But, for Britain (the main subject of where we are talking about), the British system is better and to declare the American way is better in the way you have is "American Fuck Yeah!" cultural bigotry.

The degree varies, but "a freeway is a freeway is a freeway" is standard operating procedure in the U.S.

But it isn't in the UK, so perhaps instead of going "why aren't they like us" perhaps try and understand how we operate, rather than saying that the American way is better and complaining that we aren't like you, poo-pooing explanations as to why we aren't.

[31E]

But, for Britain (the main subject of where we are talking about), the British system is better and to declare the American way is better in the way you have is "American Fuck Yeah!" cultural bigotry.

The degree varies, but "a freeway is a freeway is a freeway" is standard operating procedure in the U.S.

But it isn't in the UK, so perhaps instead of going "why aren't they like us" perhaps try and understand how we operate, rather than saying that the American way is better and complaining that we aren't like you, poo-pooing explanations as to why we aren't.

It isn't cultural bigotry - I just think "a freeway is a freeway is a freeway" is more sensible from a navigational standpoint. It's also simpler and more effective for mapping purposes to have different colors denote road quality rather than different styles, and to rely on the shield placed on the line for knowing what classification the road is. However, I do appreciate the differences in mapping techniques, since it's interesting to see how different means are used to reach the same ends.

My guess is that "classification culture" is at the root of the differences. In Britain important roads are numbered nationally and motorway status is of paramount importance, whereas in the U.S. the numbering system is more fragmented. Each state has its own system and freeways can carry any shield that exists - Interstate, US Route, state route, county route, a special shield, or even no shield at all. In some states every freeway is an Interstate and in others there are more freeways outside the Interstate system than within it; in places where non-Interstate freeways are common the shield the freeway carries is irrelevant. Are there any freeway-standard roads in Britian that carry numbers other than A or M? I've never heard of any, but if A and M are the only two types then I can see how classification would be quite relevant in Britain.

[roadman65]

We have the OOECA expressways which I am not a big fan of the tolls, but interesting to say they are a network of freeways. 

Also in NJ you do have the Garden State Parkway, the NJ 42/ACE, the NJ Turnpike (Exits 1 to 6), NJ 18, NJ 24, and NJ 21 that make a great freeway network in the Garden State.  In fact I remember that someone here years ago stated that the GSP is like an interstate to defend another user from saying NJ needs more interstates.  The PARKWAY to us New Jerseyans  is the "Main Street" of New Jersey and not only our longest road and freeway in miles, but just as popular in culture as well.

[HurrMark]

I agree with the OP: I'm a big fan of non-Interstate freeways, and I think it's really cool for a freeway to be part of an all-purpose route system. Not every freeway needs to be an Interstate, and it often makes more sense for a freeway to be a US Route, state route, or even a county route than an Interstate.

Missed those Can you list IN? the 50 stub crosses the boarder.
Non Interstate Freeways that are....Interstate!

Based on a cursory examination of my 2011 Rand McNally and Google Maps, I have found that nationwide there are 27 non-Interstate freeways that cross state lines. 26 of these exist in two states, and 1 exists in three states (US 22 in PA, WV, and OH). NY/NJ 440 is unusual, in that it originates in New Jersey, crosses into New York, and then crosses back into New Jersey. As near as I can tell the Merritt Parkway/Hutchinson River Parkway couplet is the oldest, with the interstate connection built around 1938, predating the Interstates by two decades.

Below is the full list of the 25. If there's any freeway I missed please point it out:

CT/RI 78
US 22 PA-NJ
NY 17-PA 17-NY 17 in Waverly (another case where the highway enters a state twice...used to be NY 17-PA 17-NY 17-PA 17)

[roadman65]

I kind of like MD with its freeways designated as MD Routes.  MD 10, MD 32 (although still non freeway at one point), MD 100, MD 200, and of course there was MD 46 that for some reason got changed to I-195 afterward, and also MD 43 that was supposed to be freeway that got demoted to arterial.

PA does at one point have many non interstate freeways such as the PA Turnpike non mainline toll roads excluding I-476, PA 28, US 22, US 219, US 220 if Bud Schuster did not create his brilliant I-99 plan), US 30 in some places, PA 283, US 222, US 422 (Eastern Segment) and even US 1 in Chester County.

I would have love to see NJ original freeway plan with NJ 74, NJ 75, NJ 92, NJ 90 extension to the NJ Turnpike, NJ 31 unbuilt freeway. NJ 24 to Mendham,  NJ 55 southern extension,  US 322 Glassboro Bypass,  NJ 85, and even the planned freeway that would link NJ 10 and the never built extension of NJ 24 in Morris Township ( I do not remember the route number).  That would have been so impressive it all got built and provided such a great network of freeways for NJ>

[bugo]

Yes, US 30 is a freeway in both Ohio and West Virginia.

[roadman65]

Yes, US 30 is a freeway in both Ohio and West Virginia.

Too bad in Pennsy that they cannot even complete the gap between Lancaster and Coatesville which has been needed for 40 years now.  The Government can get eminent domain to take down an ugly observation tower in Gettysburg, PA that posed a threat to no one, yet they cannot use it to get a much needed highway built that its non construction is a threat to people.

[hbelkins]

Yes, US 30 is a freeway in both Ohio and West Virginia.

Not for very long, however.

It quickly goes to two lanes after it passes the WV 2 interchange.

http://goo.gl/maps/BIUmV

[hubcity]

NY 17-PA 17-NY 17 in Waverly (another case where the highway enters a state twice...used to be NY 17-PA 17-NY 17-PA 17)

Judgement call here - NJ 17-NY 17 crosses the border as a freeway multiplex with I-287...does it not? (But then I guess it fails as a non-interstate freeway, so...never mind.)

[Mark68]

But other than the roadgeeky wow factor of scoping out various states' non-Interstate freeways, what is the benefit of keeping these roads US routes or state routes? Or on the flip side, what is the negative of having designating freeways as Interstates? The costs of resigning and temporary motorist confusion are the only possibilities I can think of.

As I see it, the upside of making these freeways Interstates is that it helps keep expectations in check: I = freeway, SR/US = something less

But the downside would be running out of 3DIs which would be the case in California.  The following are either entirely freeways or have freeway segments...

* US Routes: 101, 50
* California State Routes: 1, 2, 4, 12, 13, 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 29, 44, 47, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 60, 65, 71, 73, 78, 84, 85, 87, 91, 92, 99, 103, 110, 118, 120, 125, 126, 133, 134, 163, 168, 170, 180, 237, 241, 242, 261, 330. (I may have missed a few but you get the point)

Many of these routes don't intersect a current 2DI (5, 8, 10, 15, 40, 80) so giving them a 3DI is impossible.

You did miss CA 90, both the Marina and Nixon Freeways (of course, these are short segments, so easily overlooked).

Does US 395 from Hallelujah Jct to the Nevada line (north of Reno) qualify?

In CO, there are some non-Interstate freeways, including US 6 in the western sections of Denver, US 285 southwest of Denver into the foothills, C-470 around the southwestern quarter of Denver (and the E-470 tollway and Northwest Parkway, which are extensions), US 24 in Colorado Springs, and CO 47 in Pueblo, at least for very short stretches.

[hotdogPi]

In New England, here is a list of non-interstate freeways:

Full or almost full:
MA 3
RI 4
CT 9
RI 10
CT 11
MA/RI 24
MA 25
RI 37
CT/RI 78
RI 99
MA 128
MA 140
MA/RI 146
MA 213
CT 401
RI 403

Partial:
US 1
MA 2
CT 2
CT 3
US 3
US 6
US 7
CT 8
CT 15
NH 16
CT 20
CT 25
MA 57
CT 72
MA 79
NH 101
RI 138