Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[Amtrakprod]

Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

Apparently,  NJ's ONLY FYA is for a right turn!

Oh yeah! I'm gonna check that out when I'm in NJ in April. I always go to Piscataway for trains anyways.

[SignBridge]

I believe New York City has them in some places to remind drivers to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.

[Amtrakprod]

NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.

Here's one in Amsterdam:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9383309,-74.1921565,3a,29.9y,342.42h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sW2wFYR2mr6G7sVepo8BCWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Amtrakprod]

Looks like Weymouth just maybe upgrading a ton of their signals, or well that MassDOT district. First off, jealous, since MA-4 (where I am) uses the least FYAs out of any district. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1649352,-70.9552685,3a,28.6y,266.37h,94.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sENR8F-Uw6lhXU1CE9-pwqA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[mrsman]

NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.

While adding a FYA is the right call here, to prevent people from assuming that they have a protected turn onto 25A, it is unfortunate that a 4 aspect FYA signal wasn't used.  When 25A has a protected left turn onto Echo Ave, this right turn is fully protected and deserves a green arrow.  Most other times, a flashing yellow arrow is appropriate to warn of the merging onto 25A and a red arrow is appropriate when peds are crossing.

[SignBridge]

NYS DOT Region 10 is in an FYA frenzy on Long Island, especially in the Hicksville area where a bunch of them now exist on state routes 106/107.

[John Brighton]

I first saw the FYA when I went on a trip to the Outer Banks. When I first saw it on US 158, it was confusing, but then I got used to it. Now I see them close to the Smith Haven Mall on NY 347 and NY 25, and it makes more sense. The Smith Haven Mall itself has a FYA going from NY 25 to the mall

[SignBridge]

FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.

[mrsman]

FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.

Indeed.  A green ball in such a scenario would almost feel personal to the left turner since it is aimed squarely at them.  While appropriate signage (Left turn yield on green, watch opposing traffic) may help, a FYA is definitely the preferred solution.

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jeffandnicole]

FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.

Indeed.  A green ball in such a scenario would almost feel personal to the left turner since it is aimed squarely at them.  While appropriate signage (Left turn yield on green, watch opposing traffic) may help, a FYA is definitely the preferred solution.

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.

[jakeroot]

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.

Incorrect. The left turn in his example is permissive. Even in his street view link, you can see a pedestrian crossing the road. Here's a better shot showing cars waiting.

Vancouver, BC also has wide medians with far-off left turn lanes. Nothing special is usually posted, but drivers usually figure it out with the left-side green orb that is always present.

As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question, I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.

[betfourteen]

NYS DOT Region 10 is in an FYA frenzy on Long Island, especially in the Hicksville area where a bunch of them now exist on state routes 106/107.

25/25A as well

[SignBridge]

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.

Incorrect. The left turn in his example is permissive. Even in his street view link, you can see a pedestrian crossing the road. Here's a better shot showing cars waiting.

Vancouver, BC also has wide medians with far-off left turn lanes. Nothing special is usually posted, but drivers usually figure it out with the left-side green orb that is always present.

As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question, I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.

Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.

[fwydriver405]

Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn, I thought the reason why FYA's were created was to fix the dangerous yellow trap (traditional, phase skip, preempt, etc) that exists with "yield on green" signals, and allow more signal flexiblilty (which is the reason why I am surprised that FHWA did not phase out shared, "yield on green" left turn signals in the 2020 MUTCD and mandate FYA).

Is there something in NCHRP Report 493 I am missing?

[plain]

It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

[jakeroot]

As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question, I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.

Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.

Touché my friend...touché.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn, I thought the reason why FYA's were created was to fix the dangerous yellow trap (traditional, phase skip, preempt, etc) that exists with "yield on green" signals, and allow more signal flexiblilty (which is the reason why I am surprised that FHWA did not phase out shared, "yield on green" left turn signals in the 2020 MUTCD and mandate FYA).

Is there something in NCHRP Report 493 I am missing?

I think it depends on the state. Here in WA, lead-lag phasing has never been permitted with protected-permissive signals. Even now, it technically isn't permitted, but even WSDOT practices it with flashing yellow arrows as the reason the rule was written (shared signals) is no longer a factor.

The FYA was invented for numerous reasons; not only did it improve driver recognition of the need to "yield", but it created a great deal of operational flexibility that previously only existed with Dallas phasing: it improved the safety of pre-emption*, allowed time-of-day phasing, and finally permitted a proper lead-lag operation without worrying about louvres. So far as I know, FYAs helped improve safety as drivers better understood the meaning of a flashing yellow arrow compared to circular green indications when it came to turning, but the rest of the improvements were operational efficiencies AFAIK.

*pre-emption still seems programmed poorly; I've seen many go all-red, even for the FYA, and give all green to the pre-empted approach (the opposing FYA should remain in flashing mode, ideally).

[jakeroot]

It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Well, technically you have the right of way on a solid yellow arrow as well, and in many states, the red arrow too, assuming you entered on either green or yellow (you just have to make sure to exit the intersection ASAP).

This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

[rawmustard]

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

But you'll still have instances where a lagging phase could be skipped, and there's plenty of good reasons to skip a protected turn phase when warranted.

[plain]

It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Well, technically you have the right of way on a solid yellow arrow as well, and in many states, the red arrow too, assuming you entered on either green or yellow (you just have to make sure to exit the intersection ASAP).

Absolutely.

This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

I didn't say enough in making my point earlier, sorry for that. I was trying to say that whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

[jakeroot]

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

But you'll still have instances where a lagging phase could be skipped, and there's plenty of good reasons to skip a protected turn phase when warranted.

Yes, that's true. I was thinking an intersection like this near me where during the day, it operates with lag/lag phasing (although sometimes the lagging phase is skipped). No matter what, drivers only see a solid yellow arrow once during the phase, primarily after a green arrow, but it can sometimes be following a flashing yellow. So yes, not perfect by any stretch. Never mind overnight arrows where the signal seems to default to regular lead/lead phasing.

This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

I didn't say enough in making my point earlier, sorry for that. I was trying to say that whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

Understood, I gotcha. And yes, that's absolutely true.

[rickmastfan67]

Not sure where this is, but I was watching a video, and saw a DOUBLE FYRTA in it.  Thought that was interesting.

https://youtu.be/Cx72hxKFl5o?t=359

Skip to the 6 minute mark to see it.

[SkyPesos]

Not sure where this is, but I was watching a video, and saw a DOUBLE FYRTA in it.  Thought that was interesting.

https://youtu.be/Cx72hxKFl5o?t=359

Skip to the 6 minute mark to see it.

The street blades are barely readable with the quality of that video, but after searching for a couple of minutes in the SLC area (the mountains are a give away), it's State St and 7720 South.

[jakeroot]

The street blades are barely readable with the quality of that video, but after searching for a couple of minutes in the SLC area (the mountains are a give away), it's State St and 7720 South.

Nice find, thank you.

Great setup. Seems to work well. I think the rear-ending is unrelated to the FYAs.

Nearly identical signal design as the previously-discussed Hwy 170/Boundary St intersection in Beaufort, SC; as expected, same single-through-head error.

[MASTERNC]

Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

I have seen a FYA for right turns in Philadelphia (15th & Arch), though they use a four lens signal that never activates the green arrow.  Outside of the city, I have yet to see one in PA.