I-475 expansion leaving Toledo neighbors worried about their homes

[TempoNick]

I-475 expansion leaving Toledo neighbors worried about their homes

https://www.13abc.com/2023/06/02/i-475-expansion-leaving-toledo-neighbors-worried-about-their-homes/?outputType=amp

[The Ghostbuster]

Does this segment of Interstate 475 need to be expanded to six lanes?

[JREwing78]

Yes. Traffic counts on the section in question vary from 56,000 to 91,000 vpd.

I see one spot where ODOT may have to take private property - there's a narrow section just west of Talmadge Rd adjacent to Imperial St. They *could* preserve the home facing I-475 and just turn Imperial street into a one-way section, but ODOT may have less resistance if they just take that one home and cul-de-sac Surrey Rd and Imperial Dr. https://goo.gl/maps/B7pkbKH94vhvba5t7

The rest of it will be tight, but a 6-lane roadway with full inner and outer shoulders can be done with 125' of width. If they keep the current inside shoulder width, they could do it in 108-110' That leaves less room than before for guardrails, noise walls, and such, but ODOT should be able to make it work.

[Flint1979]

Does this segment of Interstate 475 need to be expanded to six lanes?

Yes it does.

[wanderer2575]

"Hopefully we can thread the needle between preserving neighborhoods in our city and figuring out how to get a package from amazon to Ann Arbor faster by about 4 minutes," said Sam Melden, Toledo City Councilman.

If that is what is driving the project (pardon the expression), it's a sad commentary.

[Flint1979]

That is a strange comment. There are over 90,000 vehicles that use that part of I-475 every day and it's only four lanes I find it utterly insane that getting a package from Amazon to Ann Arbor 4 minutes faster is the reason when this highway is undersized.

[Scott5114]

I wonder if Councilman Melden is maybe being a bit sarcastic there...

[Ted$8roadFan]

IIRC, that part of Toledo/Sylvania Township is more affluent than the part closer to I-75. I wonder if that will have an effect on any widening.

[SectorZ]

I wonder if Councilman Melden is maybe being a bit sarcastic there...

Given he's an anti-Kernals per a Google search of him I'm thinking yes.

[mgk920]

Waiting for the 'induced demand' crowd to surface in three... two...

Mike

[The Ghostbuster]

I am not a proponent of the 'induced demand' argument. One author I've read argued that the induced demand argument is based on two assumptions: 1. "The demand for automobile travel is infinite and can never be sated." 2. "Urban auto travel produces no benefits and is merely a deadweight loss on society." The author considered both assumptions equally absurd.

[sprjus4]

I see one spot where ODOT may have to take private property - there's a narrow section just west of Talmadge Rd adjacent to Imperial St. They *could* preserve the home facing I-475 and just turn Imperial street into a one-way section, but ODOT may have less resistance if they just take that one home and cul-de-sac Surrey Rd and Imperial Dr. https://goo.gl/maps/B7pkbKH94vhvba5t7

It would be a tight fit, but could they not just convert the existing shoulder into a third travel lane, then construct a full depth paved shoulder to the right in the remaining space?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2kZFTK4sLn71UNEZ8?g_st=ic

[TempoNick]

It's not like any of this stuff is made of stone and built to last like the Grecian and Roman temples. Houses get old, they deteriorate, they get torn down. 50 years from now, the problem of the tight fit will fix itself when nobody wants 100-year-old houses sitting next to the freeway.

[JREwing78]

I see one spot where ODOT may have to take private property - there's a narrow section just west of Talmadge Rd adjacent to Imperial St. They *could* preserve the home facing I-475 and just turn Imperial street into a one-way section, but ODOT may have less resistance if they just take that one home and cul-de-sac Surrey Rd and Imperial Dr. https://goo.gl/maps/B7pkbKH94vhvba5t7

It would be a tight fit, but could they not just convert the existing shoulder into a third travel lane, then construct a full depth paved shoulder to the right in the remaining space?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2kZFTK4sLn71UNEZ8?g_st=ic

I think they could. They might find they have to turn the street immediately adjacent to I-475 into a one-way only, or buy out the existing owner because they won't accept the loss of 12' of their front lawn, then resell to someone who doesn't care.

All about the $$$ - if it costs more to realign and rebuild the barrier rather than take the home, they'll likely take the home. It's a higher-end neighborhood, so probably cheaper just to realign the barrier.

[peterj920]

Will there finally be a direct connection with I-90/Ohio Turnpike?

[Plutonic Panda]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

[Evan_Th]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

Huh, why?  If there's actual traffic, I'll take the six-lane version.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

Huh, why?  If there's actual traffic, I'll take the six-lane version.

At the cost of safety?

I know ED is a sensitive topic(no pun intended) but I'd rather it be done the right way with a properly built six lane freeway taking the amount of homes and businesses as needed to get it done.

[TempoNick]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

I could go either way on that one. In the perfect world, I agree with you, but Ohio tends to drag its feet until they can afford to do what they consider perfect. Just get it done and fix it later.

[LilianaUwU]

Unless the neighbor is Scott Wozniak, I don't care. With how much traffic there is on I-475, it should be widened.

[JREwing78]

Will there finally be a direct connection with I-90/Ohio Turnpike?

This project is on Toledo's north side east of US-23 towards downtown. The Turnpike runs along the southern Toledo border and northern Maumee border several miles south.  Where I-475 and the Turnpike meet up is in a heavily populated area with no ROW at all to put in an interchange.

The Salisbury Rd/Dussel Dr exit is the closest one can get to the Turnpike from I-475. But that still puts you 2 left turns, 6 stoplights, and a mile away from the Turnpike on-ramp. It's Maumee's equivalent of a Breezewood.

In practice, this isn't such a disaster. Folks south of the Maumee River or already on I-75 are just going to use the I-75 interchange with the Turnpike. Folks coming from the NW along US-23 would cut over to I-280 if heading east. If headed west on the Turnpike, they would exit at OH-2 towards the Airport.

[sprjus4]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

I never meant no shoulder... I was saying, convert the existing shoulder into a travel lane, and then construct a new full depth paved shoulder in the existing grassy area between the pavement and the sound wall.

No new right of way acquisition, fits within the existing footprint, and would provide three 12 foot travel lanes and a full 10 foot paved right shoulder. I never suggested providing zero right shoulder, or even a reduced one.

Edit: It appears there may only be room for a 7 or 8 foot shoulder, but that's still reasonable in that small segment. The sound wall could be pushed out a slight amount and Imperial St narrowed slightly, if full consistency was truly desired. Either way, I'm not seeing a need for a total take of any property.

[SectorZ]

Unless the neighbor is Scott Wozniak, I don't care. With how much traffic there is on I-475, it should be widened.

I would personally bulldoze his house with the killdozer to build a bicycle path.

[wanderer2575]

Just take the homes and build the project right with modern design and safety standards. Enough with this "let's just convert the shoulder crap."  Shoulders exists for very good reasons. If you're giving me a choice between a four lane road with shoulders and a six one with no shoulders I'll take the four lane version.

I never meant no shoulder... I was saying, convert the existing shoulder into a travel lane, and then construct a new full depth paved shoulder in the existing grassy area between the pavement and the sound wall.

No new right of way acquisition, fits within the existing footprint, and would provide three 12 foot travel lanes and a full 10 foot paved right shoulder. I never suggested providing zero right shoulder, or even a reduced one.

Edit: It appears there may only be room for a 7 or 8 foot shoulder, but that's still reasonable in that small segment. The sound wall could be pushed out a slight amount and Imperial St narrowed slightly, if full consistency was truly desired. Either way, I'm not seeing a need for a total take of any property.

The inside (left) shoulders are substandard width.  If the plan includes widening those shoulders, that's another ~20 feet needed.

[countysigns]

Does this segment of Interstate 475 need to be expanded to six lanes?

Big time, especially during PM rush hour.  You have five lanes heading westbound narrowing to two lanes just after Monroe Street (right lane exits at Douglas Road, left lane ends just after Douglas turning five into three).  The right lane at Monroe Street is an exit only lane and, more often than not, people stay in the lane until the absolute last moment.  If it's a semi getting over, things screech to a halt.

Once you get past Monroe Street is the very busy Secor Road interchange where people are either scrambling to get on 475 from Secor or trying to get over to get ready to exit at Talmadge Road in one mile.  If it's a semi getting on from Secor, things screech to a stop or a crawl.

Eastbound used to be a lot worse but the redesign of the 475/75 interchange in west Toledo allows for better flow.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3iYxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zAEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5569%2C1207283
When this stretch of 475 was finished in December 1970, Toledo's commissioner of traffic engineering admitted that the roads around the project were not ready to handle the traffic.  Fifty plus years later, they still aren't ready.