Stopping for school buses

[1995hoo]

The following was on another forum I visit and I thought it raises an interesting question, recognizing of course that the laws on stopping for school buses vary from state to state. The guy who posted the question later clarified that he lives in Virginia, as do most of the other people on that forum (it's a UVA sports forum).

Cross-posting it here because I think it raises an interesting question and I'm curious what all of you think. We never really reached a resolution over there. My thoughts in response are pasted in below as noted. (BTW, some of you would be amused that one of the replies quoted the Code of Virginia referring to a "divided highway"; the person making the comment then said to him, a "divided highway" means an Interstate "and similar limited access roads." Obviously that's not what it means!)

Ok, so a school bus question. Once a week I find myself in the following situation. The road is a four-way road with a median. A school bus stops on the other side of the road. My understanding is that normally cars on my side don't need to stop because of the median, right? However, the complication is that the bus stop in this case is pretty much right at an intersection where the median is open. It's maybe five feet away from the intersection opening. There are no stop signs at this intersection but there are crosswalks. I feel like I should be stopping when the bus red lights are on but others clearly don't. They either drive by me or I see them annoyed in my rearview mirror that I stopped.

So, I'm going to stop either way, but I'm wondering what the answer might be. Thoughts?

To me, the interesting part of this is the intersection aspect. Most of the people who replied said variants on "you don't have to stop if there's a median," and in fact only one guy correctly added "but you do have to yield to any kids using the crosswalks." But I think that's an oversimplification. My reply is quoted below and focuses on the point that the intersection is a complicating factor (at the time, he hadn't said he's in Virginia, hence my reference to not knowing what state's law might apply). The reference to "JPA" refers to Jefferson Park Avenue in Charlottesville.

Normally, in most states (there are exceptions to this), a hard median like a curb or a grass median means you don't have to stop, although a two-way left-turn lane is not a median and in most states (again there exceptions) you do have to stop if that sort of lane is the only divider. This is because paint is not a physical barrier. (I recall in Charlottesville it always drove me crazy that people stopped for school buses that stopped on the other side of the median islands on JPA.)

But the problem you cite is that the bus is stopped at an intersection. Obviously, as WAYoVerraTed notes, if any kid is in the crosswalk you have to yield to him (or stop for him, depending on state law). But what if no kid is crossing? In some states, you still have to stop if the school bus is at an intersection–all directions of traffic must stop. Pennsylvania has that law, for example. Some states have a law saying a kid can't be dropped off on the "wrong" side of the street if the street is more than a certain width–in that situation, the bus has to go around and stop on the other side of the street, and in those states you don't have to stop if the road is more than whatever that specified width is.

Bottom line is, it's all potentially confusing. You don't say what state you're in, nor whether you might have moved there from another state. I note the Virginia driver's manual on the DMV website doesn't mention what happens when a school bus stops at an intersection with a median, for instance, but it does show traffic stopped in all directions at an intersection where a bus is stopped on a street with no median. I have no idea which principle trumps–not having to stop if there's a median, or all traffic in all directions stopping at the intersection. If you're in Virginia and you use Twitter, you could probably take a picture of the intersection and send it to a police department to ask what the law is. I asked Fairfax police a question about stopping for school buses and they replied quickly enough (mine related to a school bus moving into a turn lane with its flashing yellow lights, not red lights, on–could I still pass it before the red lights came on? Answer is yes but they recommend stopping in case a kid is in an unexpected location.)

Obviously regardless of what the law says, you should expect kids to do the unexpected or to act in disregard of traffic safety! So at a minimum it's never a bad idea to be ready to stop even if you aren't required to do so.

Later, I thought of a further point and followed up:

Hopefully the picture will display. I took a screenshot of the Virginia driver's manual (recognizing other states' laws can and do vary), but if the image isn't displaying, go to the link below and scroll down to page 2.

Notice the first illustration in the right-side column showing traffic stopped in all directions at an intersection when a school bus is stopped at one leg of that intersection. Presumably the cross traffic must still stop if the school bus is on a street with a median. Why would traffic coming the other way on the street where the school bus is suddenly have a different rule just because there's a median? In particular, doesn't it seem probable that the school bus stopped at the intersection precisely because that's where there's a crosswalk to allow for crossing the street?

Virginia driver's manual chapter on safe driving

[NWI_Irish96]

Regardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus. 

[Mergingtraffic]

In CT if the bus is stopped at a 4 way intersection like depicted in the pic, only north and south traffic would stop.  East and west traffic wouldn't b/c the bus isn't in the intersection. Bc that picture depicted above happened in CT and cops were called on someone who didn't stop who was driving west and they said that person didn't break the law.

[jakeroot]

Thanks for the info on the VA law, 1995hoo. It's a far cry from what I'm used to in WA. Basically, you only stop for a school bus on two occasions: approaching on a two lane road, or when behind a bus (always). Nothing about intersections.

[1995hoo]

I knew Washington State was different from here because I saw it cited somewhere as an example of a state where the road's width makes a difference, but I figured naming specific states was too much detail for that forum. I saw somewhere that in West Virginia you sometimes have to stop even if there is a median.

[US 89]

Fascinating, because the Utah law I'm familiar with, as defined under code 41-6a-1302 is a bit more restrictive:



It's a bit unclear what happens on roads with two lanes plus a center turn lane (like your middle example above), but it looks like opposing traffic would still have to stop.

[jakeroot]

I knew Washington State was different from here because I saw it cited somewhere as an example of a state where the road's width makes a difference, but I figured naming specific states was too much detail for that forum. I saw somewhere that in West Virginia you sometimes have to stop even if there is a median.

I have to remember that not every state is as liberal. Even people here will sometimes stop incorrectly, although a brief klaxon usually gets people moving (mostly because they stop out of uncertainty). Law here is that school bus stops may only permit children to cross one lane beyond the bus, hence why the law is worded the way it is.

I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.



Here's my interpretation of WA's law, when it comes to the example in the OP:

[1995hoo]

BTW, jakeroot, if you drive in Montgomery County, Maryland, err on the side of stopping if you have any doubt: The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.

[jakeroot]

BTW, jakeroot, if you drive in Montgomery County, Maryland, err on the side of stopping if you have any doubt: The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.

Thanks, I will keep my eyes peeled!

Camera enforcement has become relatively common out in WA as well, although its original use seemed to stem from drivers not stopping while proceeding in the same direction, not drivers going the other direction.

[doorknob60]

This just came up a couple days ago on the Boise subreddit. In Idaho, if you're going the opposite direction of the bus, you don't have to stop if there are 4 or more lanes on the road (2 each way). Here's a shot from the manual:


The context of the post was he was complaining that people on State St (a busy mostly 5 lane undivided arterial) were stopping for school buses going in the other direction, when they don't have to.

I explained though, that where I grew up (Oregon), you do have to stop in that situation. Old habits are hard to break, especially when it involved school buses and kids. Lots of people moving to Idaho from other states, including Oregon. And when you aren't sure, you're probably going to err on the side of caution. In Oregon, the only time you don't have to stop, is if there is a physical median separating the two travel directions.

Oregon manual:


I find it interesting that Oregon and Washington are about as different as you can get on the matter. Growing up with the Oregon way being standard, I found even Idaho to be pretty loose on that law (though IMO it's probably a good balance), but Washington is way out there.

[jeffandnicole]

This just came up a couple days ago on the Boise subreddit. In Idaho, if you're going the opposite direction of the bus, you don't have to stop if there are 4 or more lanes on the road (2 each way). Here's a shot from the manual:


The context of the post was he was complaining that people on State St (a busy mostly 5 lane undivided arterial) were stopping for school buses going in the other direction, when they don't have to.

I explained though, that where I grew up (Oregon), you do have to stop in that situation. Old habits are hard to break, especially when it involved school buses and kids. Lots of people moving to Idaho from other states, including Oregon. And when you aren't sure, you're probably going to err on the side of caution. In Oregon, the only time you don't have to stop, is if there is a physical median separating the two travel directions.

Oregon manual:


I find it interesting that Oregon and Washington are about as different as you can get on the matter. Growing up with the Oregon way being standard, I found even Idaho to be pretty loose on that law (though IMO it's probably a good balance), but Washington is way out there.

There's a huge difference there though.  When they talk about a 4 lane "highway", they also show a median between the opposing lanes.  Many states have laws where vehicles don't need to stop in the opposing direction when there's a median or barrier between the lanes.  If Idaho means 4 or more lanes, they should've drawn an example where a double yellow is the only separation between the opposing lanes.

[Revive 755]

Then there's states like Arkansas where a stop is not required unless the road has four lanes and the median is 20 feet or larger.  Having to determine the median width on the fly is a bit of an issue I don't like.

Or Wisconsin, which can get panic stops when a school bus legally unloads in some cases without using its red lights.

[doorknob60]

(snip)

There's a huge difference there though.  When they talk about a 4 lane "highway", they also show a median between the opposing lanes.  Many states have laws where vehicles don't need to stop in the opposing direction when there's a median or barrier between the lanes.  If Idaho means 4 or more lanes, they should've drawn an example where a double yellow is the only separation between the opposing lanes.

You're right that the example in the picture is not the best. But whether or not there is a median does not make a difference in Idaho. And "highway" is legally the same thing as "roadway" in this context. They actually use the two interchangeably in the manual, you see it "highway" in the top and "roadway" by the pictures.

[J N Winkler]

Regardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus.

This thread has been interesting to follow just to see how much the exact requirements vary from state to state.  In my local area I am not aware of any school bus stops that are not inside subdivisions, but out in rural areas it is often difficult to site a stop off a road that is at least nominally subject to a 55 limit.

In Kansas driver behavior around school buses is governed by KSA § 18-1556.  It exempts drivers from stopping when the bus is on the other side of a divided highway and prohibits the bus driver from actuating the red lights and folding stop sign under certain circumstances, including when the bus is at an intersection.

In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.

[Scott5114]

In Kansas driver behavior around school buses is governed by KSA § 18-1556.  It exempts drivers from stopping when the bus is on the other side of a divided highway and prohibits the bus driver from actuating the red lights and folding stop sign under certain circumstances, including when the bus is at an intersection.

In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.

This is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.

[NWI_Irish96]

Regardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus.

This thread has been interesting to follow just to see how much the exact requirements vary from state to state.  In my local area I am not aware of any school bus stops that are not inside subdivisions, but out in rural areas it is often difficult to site a stop off a road that is at least nominally subject to a 55 limit.

You can't prevent having a bus stop on a 55mph area rural highway, but you can prevent making the kids cross the road to get to the bus.  Have the bus stop on their side of the road, even if it means the bus has to backtrack on that road.  I'm thinking specifically of the 3 kids killed in Northern Indiana while crossing a rural state highway in the dark (which is a point I brought up in the DST thread) to get to the bus going the other direction.  If the bus doubles back to pick them up on their side of the road, they aren't crossing the road to get to the bus.

[1995hoo]

You can't prevent having a bus stop on a 55mph area rural highway, but you can prevent making the kids cross the road to get to the bus.  Have the bus stop on their side of the road, even if it means the bus has to backtrack on that road.  I'm thinking specifically of the 3 kids killed in Northern Indiana while crossing a rural state highway in the dark (which is a point I brought up in the DST thread) to get to the bus going the other direction.  If the bus doubles back to pick them up on their side of the road, they aren't crossing the road to get to the bus.

Heh. Back in the 1980s, for a couple of years my mom worked part-time at Shrevewood Elementary in Fairfax County. In the Street View link below, the school is ahead to the right. Notice the last house on the left with the blue shutters. The principal deemed it unsafe for kids to cross Shreve Road on the way to or from school. My mom noted that a kid living in that house attended Shrevewood, so the bus had to continue past the school, make a U-turn at the far end of that island visible in the Street View image, pick him up, then turn around again to go drop off the kids at school. I guess in the afternoon at least his was the first stop..... (The road hasn't changed much through there since the 1980s. Speed limit is still 35 except when the flashing lights come on for the school zone. Only thing that's changed is a short distance to the east where the road crosses the W&OD Trail at Buckelew Drive and the intersection was reconfigured to improve visibility.)

https://goo.gl/maps/oX63w34w58vB273A8

[jeffandnicole]

Growing up, again in the 80's, my bus stop was about 1/4 mile away at a T-intersection.  The bus would stop just beyond a T intersection.  After we got on, the bus *backed up* into the intersection to turn around and exit the subdivision!  That was always fun, as there was a ditch the bus could potentially fall into while backing up (looking back, the ditch was probably smaller than we thought, and the bus probably wouldn't have had an issue with it.

This was probably done as there was a portion of roadway that wasn't completed within the subdivision, so there wasn't a loop the bus could go around.

In junior and senior high, my bus stop was about 1/2 mile from my house, including walking along a portion of main county roadway with about a 1' shoulder.  No sidewalk, and another ditch next to the road.  At the bus stop, I crossed the roadway to get to the bus stop, then crossed back again with everyone else to catch the bus.  Did that every day for about 5 years, until I got a car.

[1995hoo]

Growing up, again in the 80's, my bus stop was about 1/4 mile away at a T-intersection.  The bus would stop just beyond a T intersection.  After we got on, the bus *backed up* into the intersection to turn around and exit the subdivision!  That was always fun, as there was a ditch the bus could potentially fall into while backing up (looking back, the ditch was probably smaller than we thought, and the bus probably wouldn't have had an issue with it.

....

When I was in kindergarten through third grade,* so late 1970s/early 1980s, the school bus came through our neighborhood on its main street picking up kids at several of the corners on the way through. But there was no outlet, so at the dead end in the back of the neighborhood the bus did a three-point turn and headed back out and on to school with no other scheduled stops en route (though once we had an unscheduled stop in the afternoon when the bus driver rear-ended a VW Beetle at the old one-lane bridge on Woodburn Road). No ditch at the turnaround, though, just a wooden fence-type thing blocking off the end of the road. Since then a new neighborhood was completed beyond the dead end and the road was extended to link up with it (though there is a new dead end a short distance from the old one!), and I assume nowadays a school bus would just loop around through both neighborhoods instead of turning around.

Looking back, it seems to me it wasn't that far to the entrance to the neighborhood and they could have just had everyone walk down there instead of having all those bus stops within one neighborhood. I assume they didn't in part because our neighborhood alone filled up the school bus (and my stop was the busiest one), so it would have taken forever to load and unload all those kids at that intersection such that it was better to have the school bus out of the way of traffic. (It was less than half a mile walk from the back of the neighborhood by the dead end to the entrance, with no busy street crossings, though there was a long uphill and downhill in each direction. Back then, most parents would not have driven their kids to the bus stop as they seem to do today.) We never questioned why the bus stops were where they were, though.

*That school closed after third grade and for fourth grade I went to a different school than most of the kids in our neighborhood because I was in a magnet program, so I had a different bus stop. Then after fourth grade we moved and I walked to school for the next two years.

[jakeroot]

Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?

[jeffandnicole]

Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?

Standing and the door was still open.

[roadman]

Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?

Until about 1973, we rode regular transit busses (late 1950s MACK buses), with regular transit system bus drivers - that the MBTA provided to cities and towns for school bus service.  Not uncommon at all for the driver to start up before we were all seated.

[jakeroot]

Haha, very cool! I don't know if it's prohibited nowadays, but I've always seen it in older films, but never experienced it in person. Short of riding a metro bus.

[J N Winkler]

This is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.

This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled.  Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.

I would say about half the times I stop for a school bus are for a short bus that drops off a student several doors down who is in special education and thus receives door-to-door transportation with the bus required to load and unload with the door opening directly onto the driveway (in other words, the bus is not allowed to stop on the opposite side of the street).  Nevertheless, the stop sign unfolds and the red lights flash.

I also went through special education and the loading/unloading protocol was the same, but I don't think the red lights or stop sign were deployed back then.

[Scott5114]

This is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.

This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled.  Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.

Now that I think about it, the lights and flashers were never on when the buses were loading or unloading at school, which makes me think that the door switch did not trigger the lights and sign when the bus was in Park.

But I do seem to remember the buses triggering lights-and-sign whenever they stopped at a railroad crossing.