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Stopping for school buses

Started by 1995hoo, May 13, 2019, 11:38:27 AM

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1995hoo

The only time I ever remember encountering a railroad crossing on a school bus was on a Boy Scout trip to PEI in 1989–the jamboree organizers used school buses to transport us all to various events. I remember the school bus came to a stop and then the driver had a heck of a time getting moving again. Why? The road was on a hill, the bus had a manual shift, and the driver wasn't used to having to work a clutch!
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.


Rothman

School buses always stopped and opened the doors at crossings when I was a kid in MA.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Amtrakprod

Quote from: Rothman on May 16, 2019, 05:12:22 PM
School buses always stopped and opened the doors at crossings when I was a kid in MA.
And they still do.
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

kphoger

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 16, 2019, 05:09:02 PM
The only time I ever remember encountering a railroad crossing on a school bus was on a Boy Scout trip to PEI in 1989–the jamboree organizers used school buses to transport us all to various events. I remember the school bus came to a stop and then the driver had a heck of a time getting moving again. Why? The road was on a hill, the bus had a manual shift, and the driver wasn't used to having to work a clutch!

And those old school buses have a heck of a clutch.  I remember a petite lady driving one up at a camp in the Sandhills of Nebraska, and she had to use all her body weight just to depress the pedal.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

#29
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train.  Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time.  He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing.  The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit.  25 people died.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

roadfro

Chiming in for Nevada: Our law (see NRS 484B.353) states that all vehicles in both directions must stop, with exception of drivers on the opposite side of a divided highway or in instances where traffic is being controlled by a police officer.

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2019, 03:49:47 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 16, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 15, 2019, 10:29:45 PMThis is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.

This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled.  Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.

Now that I think about it, the lights and flashers were never on when the buses were loading or unloading at school, which makes me think that the door switch did not trigger the lights and sign when the bus was in Park.

But I do seem to remember the buses triggering lights-and-sign whenever they stopped at a railroad crossing.

The school buses I rode in the 1990s in Las Vegas (all either Blue Bird or Thomas Built Buses) were wired such that the driver flipped a switch to activate the yellow warning lights, and opening the front door while the switch was active automatically triggered the red lights and stop arm.

It was a semi-regular occurrence to have a bus idling after school with the door open but the red lights not flashing.

None of my bus routes regularly passed a railroad crossing. But I do have a recollection of being on a school bus that passed a railroad crossing in which the driver used hazards to signal the impending stop, such that when the driver opened the door to listen for a train the red lights and stop arm didn't come on.

(All the school buses used in my district were equipped with "Exterior Light Monitors" or "ELMO" above the driver, so you could see what the buses' lights were doing while inside.)
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

mrsman

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train.  Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time.  He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing.  The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit.  25 people died.

While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law.  I assume it is a federal requirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0

Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.


mrsman

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2019, 06:07:49 PM


In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.

Consider yourself lucky.

I almost always face some school bus on my current morning commute.  Fortunately, they don't stop for too long and the bus stops aren't at random places and generally the bus is ahead of me on a two lane road in my direction.  (This is fortunate, since I am unlikely to pass it by unawares as I might if it were on the opposite direction.)

When I lived in California, I almost never encountered stopped school buses on my driving.

roadfro

Quote from: mrsman on May 19, 2019, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train.  Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time.  He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing.  The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit.  25 people died.

While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law.  I assume it is a federal requirement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0

Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.

It is a federal requirement. However, the "I'm Just a Bill" video takes a bit of a liberty on the issue, according to its Wikipedia page:

QuoteThe Bill is for the law that school buses must stop at railroad crossings. In the song, the Bill becomes a law; in reality, such a bill has never been approved by the United States Congress, but an equivalent regulation was codified by the United States Department of Transportation at 49 C.F.R. 392.10.

The law applies to all buses carrying passengers (not just school buses), as well as a variety of commercial vehicles that transport fuels and chemicals. And the required stopping distance is within 15—50 feet of the tracks.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: Mergingtraffic on May 13, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
In CT if the bus is stopped at a 4 way intersection like depicted in the pic, only north and south traffic would stop.  East and west traffic wouldn't b/c the bus isn't in the intersection. Bc that picture depicted above happened in CT and cops were called on someone who didn't stop who was driving west and they said that person didn't break the law.
I second this.  The statue is very clear on this: At the intersection of two or more highways vehicular turns toward a school bus receiving or discharging passengers are prohibited. (14-279, (a))  Hell, you can even go straight if you want.

A note about driver's manuals: they are not necessarily verbatim what the law says.  It does so happen that VA's statue makes no exception for turning away/proceeding straight from a school bus https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-859/

I would not attempt to turn even if you state allows it if doing so, given the exact situation, would constitute reckless driving.

Duke87

#35
Quote from: jakeroot on May 13, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.

You believe correctly.

It seems less nutty when you consider that the vast majority of roads with medians in New York are urban/suburban arterials, or even urban/suburban residential streets. Rural divided highways that aren't freeways are generally rare in the northeast.

I mean, if a school bus stops here, should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?

(well, no one should actually be required to stop for a school bus anywhere, but that's a separate argument)
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 13, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.

You believe correctly.

It seems less nutty when you consider that the vast majority of roads with medians in New York are urban/suburban arterials, or even urban/suburban residential streets. Rural divided highways that aren't freeways are generally rare in the northeast.

I mean, if a school bus stops here, should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?

(well, no one should actually be required to stop for a school bus anywhere, but that's a separate argument)

Depends. Do schools create bus stops where kids need to cross that median?


jakeroot

Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
I mean, if a school bus stops here, should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?

If I may remind you of the law in WA (last page)... you only stop if there's no lane or barrier (not pictured) between you and the bus.



There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.

RobbieL2415

Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.

Rothman

Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
I mean, if a school bus stops here, should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?

If I may remind you of the law in WA (last page)... you only stop if there's no lane or barrier (not pictured) between you and the bus.



There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
Whoa.  That far right picture looks crazy.  A yellow line is a "barrier" in WA?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jakeroot

Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2019, 01:26:32 PM
Whoa.  That far right picture looks crazy.  A yellow line is a "barrier" in WA?

I forgot to mention in that quoted post that you only stop on two-lane roads. Three or more lanes does not require a stop. This rule is rooted in WA administrative code, which does not permit students to cross more than one lane of traffic unless there is a signal or someone to control a crosswalk (WAC 392-145-011). In those cases, there are other control devices to stop the flow of traffic, so that's an understandable exception. Bus routes are designed so that children only cross one lane.

From RCW 46.61.370...
Quote
(2) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway divided into separate roadways as provided in RCW 46.61.150 need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.
(3) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway with three or more marked traffic lanes need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children

Most states, as far as I know, have four or more marked traffic lanes as their minimum, probably as a cautionary move. This prevents situations like in my above diagram pretty much anywhere else, as most four lane roads are 2+2, though I suppose something similar could occur on a 3+1 road.

Should be noted that, on roads with three or more lanes, buses may pull off the roadway to pick up children, to avoid stopping traffic in either direction, if they so wish (~5 in above law).

For the record, there are a lot of laws in WA that are rare in other places.

1995hoo

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.

Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Scott5114

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.

Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?

How are you to tell what the bus is doing if the lights are not on, especially if you're coming from the other direction?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 21, 2019, 03:41:17 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.

Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?

How are you to tell what the bus is doing if the lights are not on, especially if you're coming from the other direction?

Exactly.  There's been more than once that I've seen a school bus driver parked along the side of the road with the door open, talking to someone outside–no lights, no sign, not boarding or discharging school children.  Yet, from the perspective of a driver on the road, it looks exactly the same.  Except the presence or absence of children, of course, but how can you the driver know if there are children waiting to step down off the bus?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

1995hoo

I guess you have to be prepared to stop if you do see kids getting off. I'd think this is easier if you're coming from the other direction.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.

Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
The FMCSS requires checking the warning lights as part of the pre-trip.  They're not supposed to be put into service if they don't work.

1995hoo

That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?

The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.

Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.

rickmastfan67

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 13, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.

Do they enforce their own drivers stopping for 'real' stop signs with it too?  I know where I live, I've witnessed the same bus about 99% of the time running a stop sign right below my house the last two years when I'm out during garbage day.  Sure, 2 of the ways for the intersection are 'dead-ends', but they want to complain about people running their 'STOP' sign?  They need to follow the law too.

Scott5114

Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?

The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.

Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.

I imagine it's standard practice in most districts to have spare buses anyway. My school district (a fairly small rural one) ran bus routes 1—5 and 7, but reserved bus 6 as a stand-in when the other buses were in the shop. (They also had a bus 8 as a back-up for the back-up, in case one of the buses was needed for a field trip, or two buses were down at once.)

I was always excited to get to board bus 6 rather than my usual 3, because 6 was used so infrequently that it was generally cleaner and in better repair than the daily-driver 3 was. That and I was a huge nerd. (Getting to use bus 8 was incredibly rare and I think only happened once or twice the whole time I was in school.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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