Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[fwydriver405]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.

[roadfro]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.

My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

[Revive 755]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

Both the right turn head and the left turn head violated a number of sections of the MUTCD.

* The head for the right turn needs to be visibility limited or have a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign added (MUTCD 4D.05 Paragraph  11)
* The MUTCD mandates the use of arrows when signal heads are not shared
* Technically the MUTCD does not allow a circular red for separate left turn heads (barring T-type intersections with a shared left turn - right turn lane).  It would be interesting to see how FHWA would respond when asked about using one for a separate left turn head at the intersection of two one way streets with a leading pedestrian interval.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

If the delayed turn movements have their own lane, I think the proper setup would be RA YA FYA (with GA if there is a protected turn phase) since a red ball isnt allowed to be shown simultaneously with a green ball nor a green straight arrow. Nor is a green ball allowed for a dedicated permissive left turn movement, along with other rules mentioned by revive755

[fwydriver405]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.

My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.

[Roadsguy]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.

My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.

Checking Street View from just last year shows fresh striping of three lanes in a left-straight-right configuration. It faded very badly.

[paulthemapguy]

Just wanted to post this photo of a FYA signal I found near Waukesha, WI.  That skinny mast arm looks more like it belongs in MO, IA, or IL!


WI-YB1 by Paul Drives, on Flickr

[fwydriver405]

Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.

My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.

Checking Street View from just last year shows fresh striping of three lanes in a left-straight-right configuration. It faded very badly.

Here's the configuration as of 2 Sept 2019:

[mrsman]

As seen in some of the examples in the other threads, it is so much better to have dedicated signals with clear meaning than to rely on people stopping to read a wordy sign.

Protected turn - green arrow
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow
Permitted turn after yield (to opposing traffic and/or peds) - flashing yellow arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

No turn - red arrow

All manner of signalizations can be implemented using these common well understood elements.  There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

[jakeroot]

Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.

[Amtrakprod]

As seen in some of the examples in the other threads, it is so much better to have dedicated signals with clear meaning than to rely on people stopping to read a wordy sign.

Protected turn - green arrow
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow
Permitted turn after yield (to opposing traffic and/or peds) - flashing yellow arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

No turn - red arrow

All manner of signalizations can be implemented using these common well understood elements.  There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

All FRA I've seen have it change from Flashing red straight to red. But it turns red when the main traffic turns red. So for roughly 4 seconds there is a flashing red arrow next to a yellow ball.


iPhone

[roadfro]

Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.

2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).

[mrsman]

Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.

2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).

MD annoyingly uses FRA in place of FYA.  In one of the intersections I'm familiar with, with a leading protected phase that goes from GA to YA then to FRA while thru traffic goes.  At the conclusion of the cycle, it goes from FRA to RA at the same time that yellow ball is on.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to creep to the middle during the green orb/FRA phase and does it mean that I'm not allowed to complete my turn during the yellow orb/solid RA phase?  I wish that MD would adopt a solid yellow arrow following FRA, as MUTCD recommends.

IMO, this would be far better served by the doghouse signal that used to be there.  This is a leading left without any real risk of yellow trap.

[jakeroot]

Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.

2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).

MD annoyingly uses FRA in place of FYA.  In one of the intersections I'm familiar with, with a leading protected phase that goes from GA to YA then to FRA while thru traffic goes.  At the conclusion of the cycle, it goes from FRA to RA at the same time that yellow ball is on.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to creep to the middle during the green orb/FRA phase and does it mean that I'm not allowed to complete my turn during the yellow orb/solid RA phase?  I wish that MD would adopt a solid yellow arrow following FRA, as MUTCD recommends.

It sounds to me like they had the same train of thought as myself. Flashing red arrows require each car to come to a complete stop. Yellow arrows do not (at least in states with permissive-yellow laws, where stopping on yellow is not required even if it can be safely done). To have a permissive phase, followed by a yet-more permissive phase, followed immediately by a red "no movement at all" phase, seems really strange. Fully-permissive phases, at least in my mind, should be followed by progressively more restrictive phases (eg FYA, YA, RA). It doesn't make much sense to me to briefly allow several cars to floor it through the intersection when they've previously been required to stop on red.

For the record, as would be the case at lagging flashing yellow arrows, you are still absolutely allowed to creep forward during the FRA phase; flashing red is a legal equivalent to "yield" once you've stopped. When the red arrow comes up, you finish your turn. The problem is that it shouldn't go solid red until after the circular-yellow phase. Otherwise you do have a few seconds of "yellow trap" (so to speak). If Maryland set up their FRA signals to only go solid red once the adjacent traffic has a circular-red indication, I don't think their current setup would be nearly as problematic.

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

[SignBridge]

Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?

[stevashe]

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

[jakeroot]

Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?

Yeah, if the red arrow is popping up before the oncoming traffic has their red light, that's definitely yellow trap. Some agencies still allow it/practice it (District DOT) but not usually in this manner.

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.

[stevashe]

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.
[/quote]

Yeah it seems quite silly, especially since there doesn't seem to be any special case at the intersections where it's present that would require a stop. I'd guess it's probably just something that was used before flashing yellow arrows came into use and they'll probably all be replaced at some point.

[mrsman]

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.

Yeah it seems quite silly, especially since there doesn't seem to be any special case at the intersections where it's present that would require a stop. I'd guess it's probably just something that was used before flashing yellow arrows came into use and they'll probably all be replaced at some point.
[/quote]

AFAIK, Maryland and Delaware have not adopted FYA at all.  There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead.  I agree that stopping is ridiculous here and most don't do it in practice.  The particular signal I had in mind involves leading lefts, so I don't even undrestand why they couldn't just leave the doghouses in place that used to be there.  (It seems most left turn signals in MD are some form of doghouse, allowing for leading lefts.)

* This is because there are many signals that flash overnight.  Flashing yellow has right of way over the flashing red.  (A signalized equivalent to a two-way stop.)  At the beginning of the FYA era, I could see this concern that people may think that the flashing yellow arrow would allow for an equivalent right of way (as opposed to the yield), but these signals are so common now that it shouldn't be a problem any longer.  Plus, MD and DE are small states that are near areas where FYA have been adopted, so I believe most MD and DE drivers know about FYA.

[MNHighwayMan]

There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead. 

I was going to say that that's why signs that say "left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow" exist, but as I've now discovered, such a sign is not actually in the 2012 MUTCD. This explains why I've seen a few different versions of such a sign–there is no standard one!

[roadfro]

There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead. 

I was going to say that that's why signs that say "left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow" exist, but as I've now discovered, such a sign is not actually in the 2012 MUTCD. This explains why I've seen a few different versions of such a sign–there is no standard one!

A sign was not developed when FYA was employed in the national 2009 MUTCD, as it was thought (based on the research) that the flashing yellow arrow concept would be intuitive enough to be understood without the need for an explanatory sign

[jeffandnicole]

...MD and DE are small states that are near areas where FYA have been adopted, so I believe most MD and DE drivers know about FYA.

Doubtful. Just because they're small states doesn't mean drivers are any more likely to travel out of state.  MD and DE residents have what they need in their own states.   Likewise, residents in large states may encounter different travel issues within their own state (we can use Albany or Buffalo, compared to New York City, as a grand example of differences within the state).  NJ is smaller than MD, but I would doubt many know about the flashing yellow here.

[mrsman]

Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?

Yeah, if the red arrow is popping up before the oncoming traffic has their red light, that's definitely yellow trap. Some agencies still allow it/practice it (District DOT) but not usually in this manner.

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.

I was just at the intersection I mentioned earlier, Georgia Ave at Arocla Ave in Wheaton, MD and I got a better view of how the signal works.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0471455,-77.051972,3a,75y,0.5h,73.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTD9Qd3yMocvNsgSqBK0Pg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

OK, I presented the northbound view along Georgia Ave.  On the right, on the northeast corner, is the new library that was under construction during GSV but has recently opened.  On the southeast corner is a fire station that has a big room on top that served in the capacity of a temporary library at the time of the GSV.  I believe that the reason the doghouses were changed to FRAs was due to the fire station driveway being on Arcola just east of the intersection.  There may be special signalization that takes place as the emergency vehicles come and go, but I'm not familiar with it.  The driveway's intersection with Arcola is controlled by a firehouse signal [red, yellow, flashing yellow], but there is no signal at the approach coming from the Georgia/Arcola intersection.

As you can see, there are several cars waiting on the southbound Georgia left onto eastbound Arcola and one school bus waiting on the northbound Georgia left onto westbound Arcola.  The southbound left is almost always busier than the northbound left.

Both lefts from Georgia to Arcola are controlled by the FRA.  A few years ago, there were doghouses instead controlling the left turns.  There is a sign that reads "Yield on Flashing Red Arrow after Stop".

At the beginning of the cycle, you have the leading lefts.  Both start at the same time, assuming that there are cars at both.  The northbound left will tend to term out before the southbound left.  When that happens, green arrow goes to yellow arrow which goes to solid red arrow.  Even while the southbound thru traffic gets released, the northbound left faces a solid red arrow.  Only once the northbound thru traffic gets released, at the end of the southbound left phase, does the red arrow start to flash.  (On the southbound side, it goes green arrow, yellow arrow, then solid red arrow briefly and then to flashing red arrow at the same time that northbound traffic gets released.)

At this point, you have the main phase of the signal, green for both north and south bound traffic, and flashing red arrow the whole way.  When this phase ends, the red arrow becomes solid at the same time that the thru traffic goes yellow, which I agree seems to pose a yellow trap problem.  Is there any guidance on yellow trap for a flashing red arrow, or are we to assume that it's equivalent to the guidance for a flashing yellow arrow?  After thru yellow is thru red and of course the red arrow is solid red during this phase.  Then, it's time for cross street traffic to go.

[fwydriver405]

While travelling back from Oxford Hills back to Sanford a few days ago, I found a FYA in Gray, Maine with a serious yellow trap issue involving recycling the pedestrian phase and inhibiting the FYA. This is located on Route 26 in Gray at the Hannaford and Libby Hill Road (near Gray-New Gloucester HS) intersection:

Is this controller programmed incorrectly? I thought there needs to be an all-red clear before inhibiting FYA for pedestrians, not inhibiting FYA, or at least stopping the oncoming traffic to prevent yellow trap. Note that normal phase skip does not yellow trap the left-turn movements at this intersection, and the FYA continues to stay red arrow until a car comes up to the turn lane or the side street calls a phase.

UPDATE 2023-06-06: Same yellow trap phasing still exists at that intersection. The FYA re-cycles if a left turning driver calls a protected left turn phase via phase skip.

[jakeroot]

Is this controller programmed incorrectly?

Definitely! I understand programming the red arrow for the beginning of the phase, before the flashing yellow phase, but it should not be allowed to activate mid-cycle.

When you walked up, even though maybe they want the red arrow for when the pedestrian phase is active, it's obviously better (and safer) to just activate the walk signal with the FYA for those circumstances. Of course, if it's a pedestrian-heavy area, it's better just to keep the WALK sign on (activated automatically at the beginning of every phase, reactivating every 15-20 seconds or whatever), and just use a regular FYA during that phase.