I-240 extension in Oklahoma City

[Scott5114]

That would create a new seamless connection if I-44 all the way from I-35 near Edmond to I-44 near Bridge Creek. Extend SH-74 south to H.E. Bailey Norman Spur and end it there. I don't know what to sign the HE Bailey Spur or the section of I-44 from SH-74 to I-35. Extend I-235 North to I-44(currently Kilpatrick). It removes a concurrency as well.

You couldn't extend SH-74 there, because at that point it would conflict with the other SH-74, which is in McClain County (the two were connected before the Interstate system was built). That would probably be better off as a 3di of some kind.

If you're not going to make the Bailey spur SH-4, the options are 304, 309, 376, or an I-x44.

[yakra]

d) Addition of a new Designation of SH-4 to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike — Norman Spur

I don't know what to sign ... the section of I-44 from SH-74 to I-35.

Slap an I-644 or I-844 on it?

Extend I-235 North to I-44(currently Kilpatrick). It removes a concurrency as well.

This adds some more I-235/US77 concurrency. Don't know if you're referring to the 235 extension or your proposal overall, but what concurrency would be removed?

[Plutonic Panda]

d) Addition of a new Designation of SH-4 to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike — Norman Spur

I don't know what to sign ... the section of I-44 from SH-74 to I-35.

Slap an I-644 or I-844 on it?

Extend I-235 North to I-44(currently Kilpatrick). It removes a concurrency as well.

This adds some more I-235/US77 concurrency. Don't know if you're referring to the 235 extension or your proposal overall, but what concurrency would be removed?

I didn't word that last one very well. I meant it removes the I-44/I-35 concurrency.

[Rothman]

So...how quickly is I-240 going to be signed as the approved beltway again?

[Scott5114]

So...how quickly is I-240 going to be signed as the approved beltway again?

As far as I know, it's still pending AASHTO/FHWA approval. I don't know whether it was submitted at the last AASHTO meeting or not. The other designations approved at the beginning of August were signed in mid-October, so figure 2½ months from the date that FHWA gives the go-ahead, I guess?

[Rothman]

So...how quickly is I-240 going to be signed as the approved beltway again?

As far as I know, it's still pending AASHTO/FHWA approval. I don't know whether it was submitted at the last AASHTO meeting or not. The other designations approved at the beginning of August were signed in mid-October, so figure 2½ months from the date that FHWA gives the go-ahead, I guess?

Ah, okay.  I must have misread somewhere that approval was somehow mixed in with the infrastructure bill.

[Scott5114]

So...how quickly is I-240 going to be signed as the approved beltway again?

As far as I know, it's still pending AASHTO/FHWA approval. I don't know whether it was submitted at the last AASHTO meeting or not. The other designations approved at the beginning of August were signed in mid-October, so figure 2½ months from the date that FHWA gives the go-ahead, I guess?

Ah, okay.  I must have misread somewhere that approval was somehow mixed in with the infrastructure bill.

You may be thinking of I-46/I-48/whatever the US-412 upgrade will become, which indeed ended up as part of the infrastructure bill.

General procedure for highway designations in Oklahoma is vote of the Transportation Commission → AASHTO → FHWA (with the last two steps, of course, only being needed for US and Interstate designations; for state designations the Transportation Commission approval is all that's needed to start running off meat cleavers). Presumably I-46/I-48/whatever will follow the same track.

[JMoses24]

^^^^ I'd much prefer the Kickapoo be signed as x35 when it can be extended to the north and south one day. No reason to jump the gun either as far as signage.

One proposal could be to sign the Kilpatrick as I-44 all the way to a new connection to SH-4 in Mustang. This would be a new freeway built from SH-4 at S.W. 89th north to the new Kilpatrick extension. Build SH-4 to interstate standards all the way to existing I-44 and redesign the interchanges to keep the mainline in tact.

SH-4 zig-zags in Mustang, turning east to concur with SH-152, then south again at Sara Road. If you eliminated that zig-zag to build SH-4 to interstate standard now, you'd have to bulldoze half of the central business strip of Mustang to avoid having it come in at too sharp an angle to the Kilpatrick. So that won't work.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ I'd much prefer the Kickapoo be signed as x35 when it can be extended to the north and south one day. No reason to jump the gun either as far as signage.

One proposal could be to sign the Kilpatrick as I-44 all the way to a new connection to SH-4 in Mustang. This would be a new freeway built from SH-4 at S.W. 89th north to the new Kilpatrick extension. Build SH-4 to interstate standards all the way to existing I-44 and redesign the interchanges to keep the mainline in tact.

SH-4 zig-zags in Mustang, turning east to concur with SH-152, then south again at Sara Road. If you eliminated that zig-zag to build SH-4 to interstate standard now, you'd have to bulldoze half of the central business strip of Mustang to avoid having it come in at too sharp an angle to the Kilpatrick. So that won't work.

I need to draw a map of what I'm thinking. My proposal would turn slightly east at 89th st behind the Oklahoma National Guard center and then snake it's way to connect to the Kilpatrick turnpike. Regionally I don't see how growth doesn't choke itself in this area if this isn't done.

If it isn't and an entire new bypass of Mustang is done and connected up at I-40 at some point we will have a terrible system.

[Bobby5280]

20 years ago ODOT and OTA could have upgraded OK-4/S Sara Road to Interstate standards from I-44 up through Mustang to I-40 if they hadn't farted around. I think an upgrade is still theoretically possible from I-44 to the new Kilpatrick extension. But it would indeed involve taking some properties along a column a couple or so blocks East of the Walmart and OK National Guard Recruiting Center in Mustang and just to the West of Morgan Road. A bunch of the houses in there are older.

If ODOT/OTA worked out sweet enough deals for the existing property owners it might make it possible for a new freeway (or toll road) to go through there and be flanked by a lot of new housing. It looks like there is enough room for a "Y" interchange to be built between the Sara Road exit and Morgan Road exit on the Kilpatrick turnpike extension, right in that 90 degree bend it takes going over SW 44th Street. But ODOT or OTA can't fart around for years like they've done in the past. If they want anything like that to happen they have to act soon.

[Plutonic Panda]

They need to act very soon I agree and the chances of them doing so? It's very interesting OKC has a very good freeway network making me think that a great deal of planning went into it. So what changed why does Oklahoma do virtually little to no planning in regards to freeways nowadays?

[Scott5114]

They need to act very soon I agree and the chances of them doing so? It's very interesting OKC has a very good freeway network making me think that a great deal of planning went into it. So what changed why does Oklahoma do virtually little to no planning in regards to freeways nowadays?

A good chunk of the planning of OKC's freeway network was done by BPR. Once Nixon changed things to a block-grant model and got the feds out of the planning business, well, that was the end of OKC's planning.

Of course, when OKC tried planning on its own without BPR's help, we got the Pei Plan. So maybe it's better that they don't even make an attempt at it anymore...

[Plutonic Panda]

Thanks for information I'll look more into that block grant funding I don't know much about it.

To be fair, has the Pei Plan been implemented it would have been pretty cool but the city bailed halfway into it, after tearing down many buildings.

[Scott5114]

It's basically the way things are done today: FHWA has a formula they dole the transportation money out with; the states choose what to spend it on. The only federal direction as to what gets built where comes in the form of random U.S. Senators popping out of the woods to demand X road gets built.

The Pei Plan might have been neat, but I think it still would have foundered in the 80s during the economic downturn that OKC experienced due to the savings & loan crisis and the oil bust. A lot of what did end up getting built ended up being vastly underutilized until MAPS. About the only thing that came out of the Pei Plan that actually turned out well is the Myriad Gardens, and those probably could have been located somewhere that wasn't the site of a historic hotel.

[Bobby5280]

They need to act very soon I agree and the chances of them doing so?

The chances of ODOT/OTA being able to connect the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Extension to the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension along or near OK-4 are next to none currently.

I think the powers that be within the OKC area and the state government are just going to sit back and do nothing until traffic along the OK-4 corridor, S Sara Road and OK-152 is bad enough they start getting their asses chewed. Then they might conjure up the inspiration to fill in the gaps along OK-4 between the Kilpatrick and H.E. Bailey Turnpikes. But by then it will be too late. Right now there is still a fair amount of open land along and near the Kilpatrick extension to Airport Road going downward toward to Walmart Supercenter in Mustang. In another 5 years much of that open land is going to be filled in with housing developments.

I even think a bunch of the older homes North of the Walmart are going to be cleared and replaced by newer homes in brand new developments. In those kinds of deals it would be possible for ODOT/OTA and the City of Mustang to include a turnpike corridor in those plans. It's a long shot any state officials could be that smart and forward thinking, given the current political climate in the state. Toll roads are not popular, even if our toll rates are a bargain compared to most other toll roads. The only thing that seems to gain any traction is figuring new schemes to dole out tax cuts and eliminate wasteful spending.

Has any officials in Mustang or Yukon even pushed the idea of connecting the Kilpatrick Turnpike and H.E. Bailey Turnpike? I rarely ever drive through those areas. That might be different with a better highway going through there. Some of my friends live up in Edmond, but I always just stay on I-44 and either take Hefner Parkway (OK-74) or Broadway Extension (US-77) to go there. If I had an Interstate quality path thru Mustang to get to the Kilpatrick Turnpike I might use that instead.

[okc1]

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is developing a 15-year plan for turnpike expansions and improvements. Paywalled story https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/08/proposed-oklahoma-highway-plan-to-add-small-town-connections/6413454001/

Among things considered - a connection between the Kickapoo and Kilpatrick Turnpikes S of OKC (!), 6-laning the rest of the Turner, and additional exits on existing turnpikes.

[Scott5114]

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is developing a 15-year plan for turnpike expansions and improvements. Paywalled story https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/08/proposed-oklahoma-highway-plan-to-add-small-town-connections/6413454001/

Among things considered - a connection between the Kickapoo and Kilpatrick Turnpikes S of OKC (!), 6-laning the rest of the Turner, and additional exits on existing turnpikes.

Paywall circumvention link: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/08/proposed-oklahoma-highway-plan-to-add-small-town-connections/6413454001

[bugo]

Paywall circumvention link: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/08/proposed-oklahoma-highway-plan-to-add-small-town-connections/6413454001

McAlester Turnpike hahaha

[Scott5114]

Paywall circumvention link: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/08/proposed-oklahoma-highway-plan-to-add-small-town-connections/6413454001

McAlester Turnpike hahaha

What do you expect? It's the Jokelahoman. And they want you to pay for this tripe.

Also, another quote from Tim Gatz, who I am starting to love hearing from:

Turnpike commissioners supported Gatz' proposal, which he called "the beginning of the beginning."  

Once again, truly spoken like a man who holds a degree in landscape architecture.

[Bobby5280]

A $5 billion plan with very little to cause any excitement. Sounds like some widening projects for existing toll roads in the OKC and Tulsa areas is the bulk of the plan. There's nothing in there to complement the overall larger national highway network.

[Scott5114]

Bringing the number of interchanges up to being on par with the rest of the Interstate System is a nice quality-of-life improvement, though.

[Bobby5280]

I can't tell from that article what they have in mind for upgrading interchanges. So far it looks like the addition of a clover leaf ramp here and there. Big whoop for that.

Some of the stuff they mention, like improving I-44 at Newcastle, would actually be an ODOT project, not OTA. I wouldn't mind seeing I-44 widened to 3 lanes in each direction thru the US-62 and OK-37 exits 107 & 108. The I-44 bridge across the Canadian River already has a road bed wide enough for 6 lanes plus shoulders.

[Scott5114]

New interchanges will be added along the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes, including connections to Chandler and Stroud. The Will Rogers Turnpike, meanwhile, could see additional connections in Rogers County.

The way that's phrased seems to me like they're adding new interchanges where there weren't any before, although looking at the map I can't see any obvious places for new interchanges in Chandler and Stroud.

An excellent place to add a new interchange would be at I-44/SH-76/SH-130 in Newcastle, because any path to that spot from I-44 is kind of circuitous.

[Bobby5280]

A new turnpike exit by the intersection with OK-76/OK-130 in Newcastle would be nice. That would set it right next to the Newcastle Baseball/Softball complex. The on/off ramps to Council Ave would have to be fairly snug to the main lanes due to the businesses on the SW corner of the I-44/Council intersection. There is already one sort of exit ramp there already, an access road off Council to a turnpike maintenance shed.

[Plutonic Panda]

A $5 billion plan with very little to cause any excitement. Sounds like some widening projects for existing toll roads in the OKC and Tulsa areas is the bulk of the plan. There's nothing in there to complement the overall larger national highway network.

It does sound as if they might extend the Kilpatrick south as I had suggested through Mustang and upgrade the rest of SH-9/SH-4 to a freeway to I-35. How else could the Kilpatrick be connected to I-35? Color me a tad skeptical this can all be done for 5 billion. They also mentioned upgrades to I-35 and I-44 in OKC.

This could potentially be very excited or just more or less meh they're doing what the bare minimum should be.

IMO they also need to extend the Kickapoo Turnpike north to I-35. SH-74 should also be upgraded to a freeway to Waterloo and curve east to connect to I-35. Also complete the interchange at SH-74 and Hefner Parkway.