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Started by Plutonic Panda, April 30, 2017, 10:26:57 PM

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Bobby5280

Quote from: Plutonic PandaRegarding I-44 yes I've seen that argument but there is a cost reward benefit with everything and I think doing away with all toll roads in the state except for the Indian nation and the urban turnpikes would have a great benefit on statewide travel and commerce. I would be more than satisfied if we just removed tolls on I-44.

The Indian Nation Turnpike doesn't generate enough traffic and toll revenue for it to be self-sustaining. If some people decided to remove the tolls on I-44 in Oklahoma then they might as well take down the toll gates on all the rest of the rural turnpikes in the state. I think the Creek Turnpike in the Tulsa metro and the Kilpatrick Turnpike in metro OKC are possibly the only ones that could carry on in a scenario of tolls being removed on I-44.

Removing the toll gates on all those turnpikes would bring about another consequence very few in the anti-turnpike crowd bother to consider: a BIG hike in fuel taxes.

Oklahoma's existing fuel tax base isn't big enough to take in the added burden of maintaining and improving nearly 600 miles of former turnpikes. Fuel tax hikes in this scenario could end up being pretty steep if current population movement trends in Oklahoma continue for a long term. OKC, Tulsa and a couple zones along the Red River are the only areas in Oklahoma making any net population gains. Most other areas in Oklahoma are losing residents. Smaller customer bases in these areas could increase the price of fuel deliveries and the price of gasoline in those areas. Oklahoma has a lot of roads and bridges built in rural areas. But as those places continue to lose population it will get more difficult to justify maintenance and improvement on those facilities.


Plutonic Panda

#51
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 16, 2020, 03:48:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic PandaRegarding I-44 yes I've seen that argument but there is a cost reward benefit with everything and I think doing away with all toll roads in the state except for the Indian nation and the urban turnpikes would have a great benefit on statewide travel and commerce. I would be more than satisfied if we just removed tolls on I-44.

The Indian Nation Turnpike doesn't generate enough traffic and toll revenue for it to be self-sustaining. If some people decided to remove the tolls on I-44 in Oklahoma then they might as well take down the toll gates on all the rest of the rural turnpikes in the state. I think the Creek Turnpike in the Tulsa metro and the Kilpatrick Turnpike in metro OKC are possibly the only ones that could carry on in a scenario of tolls being removed on I-44.

Removing the toll gates on all those turnpikes would bring about another consequence very few in the anti-turnpike crowd bother to consider: a BIG hike in fuel taxes.

Oklahoma's existing fuel tax base isn't big enough to take in the added burden of maintaining and improving nearly 600 miles of former turnpikes. Fuel tax hikes in this scenario could end up being pretty steep if current population movement trends in Oklahoma continue for a long term. OKC, Tulsa and a couple zones along the Red River are the only areas in Oklahoma making any net population gains. Most other areas in Oklahoma are losing residents. Smaller customer bases in these areas could increase the price of fuel deliveries and the price of gasoline in those areas. Oklahoma has a lot of roads and bridges built in rural areas. But as those places continue to lose population it will get more difficult to justify maintenance and improvement on those facilities.
Fuel tax alone doesn't solely fund highway projects. Suggesting to remove tolls on a freeway because it doesn't turn a profit is the same logic as making transit free. I'm not against toll roads just against interstates being tolled. I do however support HO/T lanes so as long as GP/free lanes are ensured a reasonable LOS which necessitates widenings to keep up with demand– you can't however expect LOS A during peak usage though which is why I support HO/T lanes to provide that for those willing to pay and have it fund free BRT along THAT route and pay for road ONLY improvements.

Oklahoma needs to pay about 30-50 cents more a gallon on fuel. There needs to be more appropriations made to increase highway funding on the federal level. Electric cars should have a per mile tax on them, registrations fees increased to reasonable levels, and along with feds paying higher shares again should be more than enough to pay for the increased maintenance of having I-44 being funded other than tolls.

So I wonder if Oklahoma has 2 non tolled interstates and one tolled interstates how other states are able to do it if I-44 really can't have tolls removed. I just don't but that argument. There needs to be a study done. With that logic if having tolls on I-44 is such a game changer and doesn't impact free trade that much, then I gotta ask, why don't we just toll I-35 and I-44 so OkDOT can focus all of its resources on rural and urban state highway networks.

As I said and I'll say it again, Oklahoma doesn't need to tax itself like California which is overtaxed, but if the state wants to be a top ten state then higher taxes are in order. Local taxes are in order to be raised to to leverage funding from OkDOT without help from the feds. Though I wholeheartedly support freeway expansion and roads drivers need to pay their fare share or stop complaining about traffic congestion and poor maintenance. I give California a pass on that because something doesn't smell right and I do think there is something criminal going on with politicians taking tax monies for one reason or another.

Apart from increased freeway expansion we need passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa, increased speeds and improvements on the heartland flyer, and an expansion of that route to Newton. So a better use of toll revenue for a period of time would be to allow tolls to remain after increased funding for freeways and use that revenue needed along with other identified sources to fund the billions needed for rail and mass transit investment.

Our current system sucks. Shitty highways that lack capacity(Oklahoma's traffic congestion problems are easily fixable unlike other states), deficient interchanges, substandard freeway and highways designs, and horrible mass transit for a state of 4+ million people. There's not even a single commuter rail in the state and yet we spend money on stupid projects like a streetcar. Something has to change and to reiterate I don't buy removing tolls on I-44 is too much to take on. That state is doing shitty anyways with tolls on it.

Bobby5280

#52
Quote from: Plutonic PandaFuel tax alone doesn't solely fund highway projects. Suggesting to remove tolls on a freeway because it doesn't turn a profit is the same logic as making transit free.

You're missing my point about the toll roads. The act of building a turnpike and putting up toll gates makes that road ineligible for many other types of state and federal funding. The turnpike must be able to sustain itself with toll revenue.

Oklahoma would not have been able to build most of its turnpikes without the ability to cross-pledge turnpike bonds and revenue from the Will Rogers and Turner Turnpikes. If the toll gates had simply been removed when the Turner Turnpike and Will Rogers Turnpikes paid for themselves NONE of those other rural turnpikes (including the H.E. Bailey Turnpike) would have ever been built. Those toll roads are NOT self-sustaining on their own revenue. Those highways would have had to be funded through other means, like hikes on the fuel tax rates. Chances are super highways like the H.E. Bailey Turnpike or Indian Nation Turnpike would have never materialized built originally as "free" roads. They don't generate enough toll revenue on their own to pay for their upkeep.

To reiterate, if you get rid of the toll gates on the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes then the toll gates have to come down on all of the other rural turnpikes. They can't make it on their own toll revenue. They will need funding from other sources.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaSo I wonder if Oklahoma has 2 non tolled interstates and one tolled interstates how other states are able to do it if I-44 really can't have tolls removed. I just don't but that argument. There needs to be a study done. With that logic if having tolls on I-44 is such a game changer and doesn't impact free trade that much, then I gotta ask, why don't we just toll I-35 and I-44 so OkDOT can focus all of its resources on rural and urban state highway networks.

Most other states don't have nearly as many miles of toll road as Oklahoma. Toll roads in most other parts of the nation are also built in areas with much greater traffic levels. They also carry significantly higher toll rates. The practice of cross pledging is the only thing that made Oklahoma's rural turnpikes possible at all.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaApart from increased freeway expansion we need passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa, increased speeds and improvements on the heartland flyer, and an expansion of that route to Newton. So a better use of toll revenue for a period of time would be to allow tolls to remain after increased funding for freeways and use that revenue needed along with other identified sources to fund the billions needed for rail and mass transit investment.

The OTA is basically giving Oklahomans and anyone else using its turnpikes a bargain on toll rates. There's not a lot of surplus revenue to even pay off all its turnpike bonds, must less provide extra "gravy" to fund things like passenger rail projects. Governor Stitt must be smoking some kind of special flavor weed to think he can use turnpike revenue to fund non-turnpike road projects in rural areas.

America is going to get nowhere fast with rail projects in general as long as it continues to totally suck ass at controlling the cost of building such things. We're already pretty lousy at keeping the lid on explosive costs just with highways. But the cost of rail projects is just laughably ridiculous. And there's no guarantee the rail lines will even generate the ridership needed to keep the whole effort from generating an ocean of red ink.

In_Correct

#53
Keep the turnpikes. ... and build more of them. If these turnpikes were converted into freeways, would they get more funding? Would The Chickasaw Turnpike finally be upgraded? I really doubt that, or they would not have been built as turnpikes. If there are not enough turnpikes that  provides road funds, then perhaps a much needed corridor can be built as a turnpike. Parallel to S.H. 3 for example.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

US71

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Plutonic Panda

^^^ Bobby we usually agree on a lot but you compare billion dollar costs of rail have you not seen the cost for airports? Many expansions alone exceed a billion dollars and new builds around the world are heading north of 10 billion.

In_Correct



QuoteThat is something you and I agree on.  We need hard shoulders more than we need more lanes on the state highways.  Leaving them without shoulders is leaving them incomplete.  Finish the highways we already have first.

Many of the roads do not have either of those.

QuoteThat doesn't mean nothing can be done to work towards it.  I'm not expecting it to happen tomorrow.  I'm expecting it to happen.  Affordable, timely transportation that doesn't require a car is something that this state needs to remain economically viable or people are going to leave for someplace where they don't have to just light $5000-8000/year on fire.  Cost of living keeps going up, but wages sure aren't.

But who will build it? The Oklahoma Rail Authority??
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Plutonic Panda

Has a street sign ever been used to patch a pothole before? It has now:

https://twitter.com/connor_r_hansen/status/1235021933944557570?s=21

Scott5114

I'm going to say that's against the MUTCD...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

US71

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2020, 04:37:54 PM
I'm going to say that's against the MUTCD...

Yes, it probably is. What's your point? ;)
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Bobby5280

Maybe it's a political statement about the funds from the first fuel tax hike in over 25 years going to fund pay raises for "those damn pinko commie teachers" rather than fixing them thar roads.

Hmm. Maybe they should have used a school crosswalk sign for that patch job.

Plutonic Panda

New CIRB update:

QuoteOn Aug. 3, the Oklahoma Transportation Commission approved the nearly $880 million County Improvements for Roads and Bridges plan that has been updated for State Fiscal Years 2021 through 2025, which is designed to address projects like the Belford bridge.

- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/oklahoma-counties-to-benefit-from-bridge-road-upgrades/49439

Plutonic Panda

OkDOT bridge rankings go from the worst to the top ten:


Oklahoma highway bridge conditions are making the grade by moving from among the worst in the nation to the head of the class, achieving Top 10 status for the first time by ranking ninth, according to the latest data from the Federal Highway Administration.

The state was as low as 49th place in 2004 in national bridge condition rankings due to the number of structurally deficient bridges on the state highway system.


https://www.ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=61222

Scott5114

Of note is that this #9 ranking is only considering state-owned bridges, and does not reflect deficient bridges at the county or local level.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

dchristy

Thanks for the clarification.....I was wondering how Oklahoma had moved up 40 places when the county and local bridges are largely still insufficient.

Plutonic Panda

Looks like they updated their website. It's not bad but it was tricky to find press releases and instead of summarized traffic and road updates every weekday they direct you to Twitter which I don't care for:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot.html

Scott5114

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 09, 2020, 05:27:58 PM
Looks like they updated their website. It's not bad but it was tricky to find press releases and instead of summarized traffic and road updates every weekday they direct you to Twitter which I don't care for:

https://oklahoma.gov/odot.html

I like the "Memorial Highways & Bridgets Naming Program". Guess ODOT wants to eliminate all the Bridgets in Oklahoma and give them new names.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

bwana39

#67
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 04, 2020, 09:14:14 AM
Has a street sign ever been used to patch a pothole before? It has now:

https://twitter.com/connor_r_hansen/status/1235021933944557570?s=21

Good catch. Also a GREAT reuse of an existing surplus item. They could have gone ,  bought and cut a piece of sheet metal and put it there. Probably a couple hundred extra dollars.  The purpose of the sign was to keep the concrete from running out when they scabbed the pothole. Generally you remove the media you use to frame a concrete placement. This time they left the scrapped signs in place....
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Scott5114

They could have also replaced the bridge before that was necessary...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

rte66man

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2020, 04:04:02 PM
They could have also replaced the bridge before that was necessary...

At least they are working on the replacement as we speak.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2020, 04:04:02 PM
They could have also replaced the bridge before that was necessary...
The state also shares some blame for underfunding ODOT I would argue.

Plutonic Panda


mvak36

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US71

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Plutonic Panda

Sorry but that was not the new 8yr plan release. This is the real one for 2021-28. Lots of projects have been pushed back as expected. Even before the coronavirus Oklahoma has been unstable with its budget and the virus just made it even worse. Not ODOTs fault, but the state as a whole needs to stop being so damn cheap and find ways to raise taxes to increase revenue. Hopefully next years plan will be better.

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/programs-and-projects/8-year-construction-work-plan.html



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