HAWK Thread

[Rothman]

Considering that the MUTCD recommends against installing HAWK's within 100 ft. of side streets and driveways controlled by stop or yield signs, I'm amazed that so many of them in many states seem to be AT such intersections.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised at the above example in Massachusetts with the barely two second steady-yellow. That state has a long history of doing whatever they want regardless of what the Manual says. LOL

There's a HAWK in Hadley on Route 9 I despise.  Luckily, it is rarely triggered -- I believe it is for a crosswalk connecting a courthouse to...a Cumby.

[roadfro]

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?

I don't know that the MUTCD mandates one way or the other, but I've never seen any examples (in person or video) of "outer inner outer inner". If you think to situations where there might be three overhead signals, or one overhead and a side mount, "left right left right" would be the only style that makes sense...

From a traffic control systems perspective, I think it would be more electrically complex if the beacons displayed different red aspects at the same time, and for no real benefit.

[Mergingtraffic]

I just don't get HAWKS, stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  Nobody understands them.  (The same with the flashing yellow arrow)  If you have to put a sign next to it explaining what a HAWK or FYA means then it shouldn't be used.  Everyone knows a RYG light and what to do.  HAWKS should be replaced with a regular RYG light.

I have one near me and when it went to flashing red and no pedestrians around, nobody moved until it went off.

[kphoger]

I just don't get HAWKS, stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  Nobody understands them.  ...  If you have to put a sign next to it explaining what a HAWK ... means then it shouldn't be used.  Everyone knows a RYG light and what to do.  HAWKS should be replaced with a regular RYG light.

I have one near me and when it went to flashing red and no pedestrians around, nobody moved until it went off.

If a standard RYG signal at the same pedestrian crossing went from solid red to flashing red, then I have a suspicion a lot of drivers would likewise remain stopped until the flashing red phase ended.

(The same with the flashing yellow arrow) ... If you have to put a sign next to it explaining what a ... FYA means then it shouldn't be used.

What is your preferred solution to yellow trap?

[JoePCool14]

I just don't get HAWKS, stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  Nobody understands them.  (The same with the flashing yellow arrow)  If you have to put a sign next to it explaining what a HAWK or FYA means then it shouldn't be used.  Everyone knows a RYG light and what to do.  HAWKS should be replaced with a regular RYG light.

I have one near me and when it went to flashing red and no pedestrians around, nobody moved until it went off.

HAWKs are up for debate, but I disagree with your take on FYAs. I think they're pretty clear and useful. Were doghouses/5-light towers okay too? Yes. But FYAs are even better.

[jakeroot]

If a standard RYG signal at the same pedestrian crossing went from solid red to flashing red, then I have a suspicion a lot of drivers would likewise remain stopped until the flashing red phase ended.

I'm not personally convinced of that. Drivers are quite well trained that a single flashing red means "stop then proceed when clear". The wig-wag double-flashing red, on the other hand, does not have such a meaning.

[Amtrakprod]

I just don't get HAWKS, stop trying to reinvent the wheel.  Nobody understands them.  (The same with the flashing yellow arrow)  If you have to put a sign next to it explaining what a HAWK or FYA means then it shouldn't be used.  Everyone knows a RYG light and what to do.  HAWKS should be replaced with a regular RYG light.

I have one near me and when it went to flashing red and no pedestrians around, nobody moved until it went off.

Flashing yellow arrows are actually really intuitive, and we've had great successes with them. Drivers like them too.

PHBs are less popular


iPhone

[Revive 755]

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?

I don't know that the MUTCD mandates one way or the other, but I've never seen any examples (in person or video) of "outer inner outer inner". If you think to situations where there might be three overhead signals, or one overhead and a side mount, "left right left right" would be the only style that makes sense...

MUTCD 4F.02 Paragraph 03 Item A mandates at least two faces for each approach to the Hawk.

I don't see a mandate in the MUTCD for "left right left right" versus "outer inner outer inner".  Maybe there's a bit for guidance on this in some of the other electrical guidelines - one of the ITE ones and/or NEMA perhaps?

[JoePCool14]

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?

I don't know that the MUTCD mandates one way or the other, but I've never seen any examples (in person or video) of "outer inner outer inner". If you think to situations where there might be three overhead signals, or one overhead and a side mount, "left right left right" would be the only style that makes sense...

MUTCD 4F.02 Paragraph 03 Item A mandates at least two faces for each approach to the Hawk.

I don't see a mandate in the MUTCD for "left right left right" versus "outer inner outer inner".  Maybe there's a bit for guidance on this in some of the other electrical guidelines - one of the ITE ones and/or NEMA perhaps?

I think it's just sloppy wiring. Sometimes we see the same thing with railing crossings, where it varies between alternating and left-right. In my opinion, they should be uniform, left-left, right-right.

[PurdueBill]

I'm not personally convinced of that. Drivers are quite well trained that a single flashing red means "stop then proceed when clear". The wig-wag double-flashing red, on the other hand, does not have such a meaning.

Anywhere else you do see a wigwag style red, like a school bus or a railroad crossing, it means stop and stay put until the lights go dark.  A HAWK somehow took that same pattern and made it mean something else.  It seems like both reds flashing together would be better really.

They made it impermissible to have horizontal pairs of red flashing balls alternate at an intersection because it could be confused with a railroad crossing, then introduced a new thing that has alternating horizontally-aligned red flashing balls.  Nuts!!

[DRMan]

I'm not personally convinced of that. Drivers are quite well trained that a single flashing red means "stop then proceed when clear". The wig-wag double-flashing red, on the other hand, does not have such a meaning.

Anywhere else you do see a wigwag style red, like a school bus or a railroad crossing, it means stop and stay put until the lights go dark.  A HAWK somehow took that same pattern and made it mean something else.  It seems like both reds flashing together would be better really.

They made it impermissible to have horizontal pairs of red flashing balls alternate at an intersection because it could be confused with a railroad crossing, then introduced a new thing that has alternating horizontally-aligned red flashing balls.  Nuts!!

Having both reds flash together would be better, and so would having the yellow flash at all times. A dark signal is supposed to equate to an all-way stop.

Although, drivers seem accustomed to these weird phases here in the birthplace of the HAWK.

[jamess]

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?

left right left right like a railroad crossing in which going means deaths so you know, very intuitive

[hotdogPi]

So I tried pointing this out on a Facebook thread, and it's going over most people's heads without thinking it through...

During the flashing red phase, when two signal heads are used, are the lights supposed to flash out in out in, or left right left right?

left right left right like a railroad crossing in which going means deaths so you know, very intuitive

No, it's not intuitive at all. The flashing red phase of a HAWK functions as a typical flashing red; you can go once it's clear. Drivers are trained to stop entirely until the phase ends on a railroad crossing, and you're not supposed to do that at a HAWK. (Some states do treat railroad crossings without gates as typical flashing reds where you can go after the train passes, but few people know this.)

[kphoger]

Maybe the real issue is that a flashing red means one thing at an intersection and a different thing at a railroad.  Why is nobody saying that's confusing?

[fwydriver405]

Maybe the real issue is that a flashing red means one thing at an intersection and a different thing at a railroad.  Why is nobody saying that's confusing?

And also the same pattern for a school bus as well displaying their red lights, similar to a level/railroad crossing?

[Rothman]

Yeah, HAWKs are of the devil.

[SignBridge]

Well besides the HAWK being a bad concept in general, the idea that wig-wag flashing red lights mean different things at different locations is downright dangerous to life. It shouldn't mean stop and proceed at a pedestrian crossing but mean stop and stay at a railroad crossing. It should have the same meaning everywhere. What are the engineers at FHWA smoking?

And another problem I've noticed in all the HAWK videos, we've seen (besides that many of them are installed at intersections, contrary to MUTCD recommendation) is that the red flashing pattern is not uniform in all installations either. As others have noted: some flash left-right, left-right and others flash in-out, in-out. So we don't even have consistency with the flashing pattern. What a mess!

The stop and proceed indication at a crosswalk should have all red lights flashing together just like at a regular traffic signal, so stop and proceed would always be all red lights flashing together. 

[kphoger]

Well besides the HAWK being a bad concept in general, the idea that wig-wag flashing red lights mean different things at different locations is downright dangerous to life. It shouldn't mean stop and proceed at a pedestrian crossing but mean stop and stay at a railroad crossing. It should have the same meaning everywhere. What are the engineers at FHWA smoking?

Why stop there?  Flashing red lights in general should have the same meaning everywhere.

Two stoplights flashing red on a mast arm means stop and proceed (flash mode), and two lenses in the same stoplight on a mast arm means stop and proceed (HAWK), but two lenses on a railroad signal mean stop and stay (wigwag).

[Dirt Roads]

The railroader in me wants to remind everyone that the flashing railroad signals is meant to represent the left and right [stops] of a wig-wag, which simulates a railroad flagger swinging a red lantern back-and-forth.  Which indeed, both the wigwag and the flagman use constant red signals.  But you'all are entirely correct, the flashing red signals should have a consistent aspect (interpreted meaning):  "stop while flashing".

[fwydriver405]

Speaking of Hybrid Beacons and railroad crossings... what about them actually being used at a railroad crossing, either in tandem with existing signals or as the actual warning devices? Two examples I can think of:

W Jefferson Ave and Zug Island Rd in Detroit MI - there are no actual railroad (level) crossing signals here, the hybrid beacons ARE the actual level crossing signals. Past GSV suggested they replaced traditional RYG signals on the mast arm around 2017. Wonder if their sequence is very similar to how the United Kingdom and Ireland does their level crossings. Example of what I mean for a sequence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVOPU5MQrw



The other one is at Petaluma Hill Rd in in Penngrove CA. This one is in tandem with existing level crossing signals, and it appears it was installed in 2018. I'm not sure what they were going here with the signal sequence, or why they were added later when the signal was upgraded, as the sequence doesn't make sense to me, especially the flashing red.

When the (normal) crossing activates, the Hybrid Beacon goes solid yellow for 3 seconds, then goes steady red for 7.5 seconds as the crossing gates go down, and then flash red like the (normal) crossing signals for 7.5 seconds before going dark.

Example of sequence (start at 1:29 for sequence):
https://youtu.be/s8vagx2yLJA?t=87

EDIT, here's what I found from the video description:

An unusual feature here are High-Intensity Activated Crosswalk (HAWK) beacons. Intended for pedestrian crosswalks and closely resembling warning lights in the United Kingdom, the HAWKs were placed in early 2017 to address safety concerns (particularly from the annual parade). I'm not exactly sure how and when they are triggered, but they serve to prevent traffic from blocking the tracks and also react with the railroad crossing signals. The HAWKs additionally have digital signs pointed on Woodward Ave. that bear a "No Left Turn"  symbol and also read "Train"  if one is indeed present.

[Lukeisroads]

go to 178 in bakersfield they have a HAWK the first one in bakersfield and in kern county

[kphoger]

go to 178 in bakersfield they have a HAWK the first one in bakersfield and in kern county

Well, that was vague.

Here is the specific location:  https://goo.gl/maps/kWQoVka4t4pyXoSQ6

[SignBridge]

Seems to be an improper use of HAWK signals at the railroad crossing in Penngrove, Calif. I doubt the MUTCD permits their use at RR crossings. But maybe Calif's Manual has an exception?

And re: the installation in Detroit, I doubt that's in compliance with the MUTCD either, but I'll have to check to be sure.

[jeffandnicole]

Speaking of Hybrid Beacons and railroad crossings... what about them actually being used at a railroad crossing, either in tandem with existing signals or as the actual warning devices? Two examples I can think of:

W Jefferson Ave and Zug Island Rd in Detroit MI - there are no actual railroad (level) crossing signals here, the hybrid beacons ARE the actual level crossing signals. Past GSV suggested they replaced traditional RYG signals on the mast arm around 2017. Wonder if their sequence is very similar to how the United Kingdom and Ireland does their level crossings. Example of what I mean for a sequence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVOPU5MQrw

These appear to function more like a traditional railroad crossing signal than a HAWK -- there is an added yellow phase before the alternating flashing reds, but there is no flashing yellow or solid red phases.  Maybe some genius from the county or city Design department got involved.

The bigger issue I see:  Am I nuts, or are both gates on the wrong sides of the road?

You're nuts. You missed that this is in the UK or Ireland..

[US 89]

Speaking of Hybrid Beacons and railroad crossings... what about them actually being used at a railroad crossing, either in tandem with existing signals or as the actual warning devices? Two examples I can think of:

W Jefferson Ave and Zug Island Rd in Detroit MI - there are no actual railroad (level) crossing signals here, the hybrid beacons ARE the actual level crossing signals. Past GSV suggested they replaced traditional RYG signals on the mast arm around 2017. Wonder if their sequence is very similar to how the United Kingdom and Ireland does their level crossings. Example of what I mean for a sequence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVOPU5MQrw

These appear to function more like a traditional railroad crossing signal than a HAWK -- there is an added yellow phase before the alternating flashing reds, but there is no flashing yellow or solid red phases.  Maybe some genius from the county or city Design department got involved.

The bigger issue I see:  Am I nuts, or are both gates on the wrong sides of the road?

You're nuts. You missed that this is in the UK or Ireland..

To be fair, the "another train coming" sign is on the wrong side of the road. You'd never see a sign like that on the left side of a 2-lane road in the US, would you?