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US '191Y' - A real route?

Started by Exit58, March 20, 2020, 10:30:26 PM

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DJStephens

    Yes am aware of the US 70 alignment in the Gila Valley.  Lived in Safford from mid '18 to mid '19.  At a geotechnical firm (on the corner of 1st Avenue and 8th street). 
   Have to wonder why they didn't propose an alignment for 70 on the N side of the Gila River, up on the  mesa, S of where Safford Mine is today.   Plenty of room up there, and it is up off the floodplain of the River itself.   Guessing Gila Box reservation planning, possibly.   A ROW of generous width could have been established, with most ranch access preserved, and a few interchanges.  E and W end, US 191, and Safford Mine S access road.  Yes have observed sulfuric acid tankers exceeding the speed limit in Pima, Thatcher and Safford themselves.  And going through lights that have turned red.   
   Believe it would be of more value, however, to continue the current upgraded US 191 N (from MP 104/105) to connect to existing junction of 70 and 191 E of San Jose.   This would follow the high tension line, and then veer NNE to miss the irrigated farmlands E of Safford.   191 N of 70 could be double barreled fairly easily, until it reaches the foothills on the way to the original Morenci Mine.  Blasting, terracing, and alignment adjusting and improvement could get a divided four lane all the way to Four Way.  There is currently a Virginia Twin four lane 191 from Four Way west towards Clifton.  This should be upgraded so both sides have equivalent standards. 
   This entire scenario would get one a divided four lane all the way from Interstate 10 to the outskirts of the Morenci Mine complex. 


JKRhodes

Quote from: DJStephens on August 23, 2020, 11:11:12 AM
    Yes am aware of the US 70 alignment in the Gila Valley.  Lived in Safford from mid '18 to mid '19.  At a geotechnical firm (on the corner of 1st Avenue and 8th street). 
   Have to wonder why they didn't propose an alignment for 70 on the N side of the Gila River, up on the  mesa, S of where Safford Mine is today.   Plenty of room up there, and it is up off the floodplain of the River itself.   Guessing Gila Box reservation planning, possibly.   A ROW of generous width could have been established, with most ranch access preserved, and a few interchanges.  E and W end, US 191, and Safford Mine S access road.  Yes have observed sulfuric acid tankers exceeding the speed limit in Pima, Thatcher and Safford themselves.  And going through lights that have turned red.   
   Believe it would be of more value, however, to continue the current upgraded US 191 N (from MP 104/105) to connect to existing junction of 70 and 191 E of San Jose.   This would follow the high tension line, and then veer NNE to miss the irrigated farmlands E of Safford.   191 N of 70 could be double barreled fairly easily, until it reaches the foothills on the way to the original Morenci Mine.  Blasting, terracing, and alignment adjusting and improvement could get a divided four lane all the way to Four Way.  There is currently a Virginia Twin four lane 191 from Four Way west towards Clifton.  This should be upgraded so both sides have equivalent standards. 
   This entire scenario would get one a divided four lane all the way from Interstate 10 to the outskirts of the Morenci Mine complex.

Cool. It's always nice to meet others with ties to this valley. I'm one of those people who keeps trying to leave, and keeps coming back, to Graham County. I was born here in '83. Lived in Las Cruces in 2005, Phoenix area 2006-2011, Morenci 2011-2016, and Salt Lake in 2018...

Yes I often fantasized about twinning the "Stretch" of US 191 between 131 and 140 at a minimum when I used to commute to Morenci.

The junction at "Three-Way" would be well served by a flyover for northbound US 191 traffic. I've seen northbound traffic get backed up from the stop sign all the way past the bridge and up the hill. When production and mill expansion projects were at full bore, morning rush hour traffic was worse than Phoenix, considering the amount of lanes available and the length of traffic queues.

Various ideas to bypass mine traffic around Clifton have been floated over the years and shot down.

Max Rockatansky


Road Hog

Just to let you all know, the Y suffix exists elsewhere: AR 176Y in Sherwood.

74/171FAN

VA still has at least 3 Y routes (VA 6Y, VA 132Y, VA 180Y), but they seem to not be posting any further ones.  Mapmikey will definitely correct me if necessary.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Mapmikey

Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 25, 2023, 08:22:49 PM
VA still has at least 3 Y routes (VA 6Y, VA 132Y, VA 180Y), but they seem to not be posting any further ones.  Mapmikey will definitely correct me if necessary.

Virginia definitely stopped assigning new Y routes. There are a few still posted - 132Y, 180Y, 205Y, and 300Y.  6Y is now unposted along with a few others.

index

I wonder if this qualifies for an entry on the Wikipedia article for split U.S. Routes? The article for split Interstate highways includes Maryland's state-designated ones, so I don't think it would be a stretch.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

74/171FAN

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 25, 2023, 08:53:07 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 25, 2023, 08:22:49 PM
VA still has at least 3 Y routes (VA 6Y, VA 132Y, VA 180Y), but they seem to not be posting any further ones.  Mapmikey will definitely correct me if necessary.

Virginia definitely stopped assigning new Y routes. There are a few still posted - 132Y, 180Y, 205Y, and 300Y.  6Y is now unposted along with a few others.

I think I debated about removing VA 6Y from TM when I clinched VA 6 in December, but GSV still shows signage so I could not remember if it was actually unposted.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 03:12:04 AM
I wonder if this qualifies for an entry on the Wikipedia article for split U.S. Routes? The article for split Interstate highways includes Maryland's state-designated ones, so I don't think it would be a stretch.

If you feel inclined by all means.  That said, I'd venture a guess that some stick in the mud would object based off the conversation we are having in this thread:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32652.msg2851440#new

index

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 07:02:36 AM
Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 03:12:04 AM
I wonder if this qualifies for an entry on the Wikipedia article for split U.S. Routes? The article for split Interstate highways includes Maryland's state-designated ones, so I don't think it would be a stretch.

If you feel inclined by all means.  That said, I’d venture a guess that some stick in the mud would object based off the conversation we are having in this thread:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32652.msg2851440#new

I went ahead and edited the article. I guess I'll see how far it gets.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 07:02:36 AM
Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 03:12:04 AM
I wonder if this qualifies for an entry on the Wikipedia article for split U.S. Routes? The article for split Interstate highways includes Maryland's state-designated ones, so I don't think it would be a stretch.

If you feel inclined by all means.  That said, I'd venture a guess that some stick in the mud would object based off the conversation we are having in this thread:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32652.msg2851440#new

I went ahead and edited the article. I guess I'll see how far it gets.

I'll have to include that highway resolution you posted for 1958.  I keep forgetting those are actually online for Arizona.

707

#36
My general understanding of US 191Y is the route was originally part of the main highway, starting out as part of SR 81 back in 1927, being re-designated as part of US 666 in 1938. Highway modernization which included practically rebuilding all of US 666 between Morenci and Bowie Junction meant a new alignment opened sometime between 1946 and 1951, closer to Willcox. The older route was kept largely to serve as a faster and more direct connection for westbound SR 86 traffic, later I-10 traffic. In 1958, the route was redesignated as US 666Y. The route was redesignated as US 191Y in 1992.

Usually the "Y" connotation is for access ramps, bypassing intersections or a small access road connecting one highway to another. However in this case, it's a 3.5 mile long highway stretch of highway. According to some ASHD documents, ADOT records and maps, the point at which US 191Y and I-10 meet is known as "Bowie Junction". And given US 191Y is listed on state highway logs, ADOT doesn't treat it as a "ramp" or access road, but instead treats it as an actual highway, albeit unsigned.

It's not uncommon for ADOT to designate supplementary routes for U.S. Highways not recognized by AASHTO. US 60X (unsigned) is a good example of that and I believe US 93 Spur in Kingman (unsigned) may be too. That was definitely the case for US 80 Alternate in the Phoenix area from the 1930s to the 1970s. It was basically created as an excuse for the state to maintain Washington Street east of 16th Street, which was the city limits for Phoenix at the time. IIRC, US 191T through the Morenci mine is also not recognized by AASHTO, which considers that route part of US 191 proper, just as they recognized it as US 666 when the route was US 666T.

Max Rockatansky

Arizona is big on special designation roads that arguably ought to just be assigned standalone numbers.  US 191Y is an example of this but there are some others that leap to mind:

AZ 95 had a couple different Spur routes and a Truck route.  AZ 95 Truck and the Spur over Parker Dam are both signed.  I've heard arguments that AZ 95 Truck ought to be AZ 62 to provide Route continuity with CA 62.  I'm not certain what the status of the spur to Cottail Cove State Park is signed given that is relatively new. 

The strangest one I recall was AZ 89L in Page.  I've never bothered to look it up in the AASHTO database but I suspect that was just an instance of ADOT and Page wanting a business route without the red tape that usually goes along with getting one.

Max Rockatansky

I revisited my own 191Y blog.  I got the realignment of US 666 off of Page Ranch Road down to somewhere in the 1944-1948 timeframe. 

bugo

Arkansas has tons of Y routes, including US 412Y in Washington County and AR 88Y in Polk County. They are often one leg of an Oklahoma Y intersection. Most of them are unsigned. US 67Y in Lawrence County, a connector between US 67 and AR 34, is fully signed in both directions, but signed Y routes are rare.

707

It's the same with Arizona. None of the Y routes I ever came across were signed. If I hadn't looked through state highway logs and GIS data, I'd have never known they even existed.

707

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 09:20:24 AM
Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 07:02:36 AM
Quote from: index on June 26, 2023, 03:12:04 AM
I wonder if this qualifies for an entry on the Wikipedia article for split U.S. Routes? The article for split Interstate highways includes Maryland's state-designated ones, so I don't think it would be a stretch.

If you feel inclined by all means.  That said, I'd venture a guess that some stick in the mud would object based off the conversation we are having in this thread:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32652.msg2851440#new

I went ahead and edited the article. I guess I'll see how far it gets.

I'll have to include that highway resolution you posted for 1958.  I keep forgetting those are actually online for Arizona.

So are copies of the state highway logs from 1959 and 1965. The '59 one is hard to read, just a heads up. I'm trying to copy down the info and put it into separate PDF files. So far have US 80, US 66, SR 86, SR 84 and SR 84A pulled from it.

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 707 on June 30, 2023, 04:44:11 PM
It's the same with Arizona. None of the Y routes I ever came across were signed. If I hadn't looked through state highway logs and GIS data, I'd have never known they even existed.

Steve Riner noted on one of the Facebook pages that US 666Y used to actually be signed from I-10. 



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