Indiana - Red Arrows

[realjd]

While I was visiting family in Fort Wayne last weekend, I noticed a handful of red left turn arrows! Many (all?) of the lights along Coliseum Blvd. (SR-930) had them. These are the first I've seen in Indiana so far.

Coming from Florida, I always get mildly confused seeing both green balls and a red ball presented to a direction of traffic simultaneously. It's good IMO to see INDOT finally coming in line with most of the rest of the country, even if it did take a MUTCD change to do it.

[wh15395]

I noticed these too, but only in Fort Wayne. So far I haven't seen them anywhere else in the state.

[rawmustard]

There is one just to the southwest of downtown Elkhart.

[NWI_Irish96]

That must be a fairly new signal in Elkhart.  I have family there, and I don't remember seeing any in town, and certainly not one at that intersection.

[Brandon]

While I was visiting family in Fort Wayne last weekend, I noticed a handful of red left turn arrows! Many (all?) of the lights along Coliseum Blvd. (SR-930) had them. These are the first I've seen in Indiana so far.

Coming from Florida, I always get mildly confused seeing both green balls and a red ball presented to a direction of traffic simultaneously. It's good IMO to see INDOT finally coming in line with most of the rest of the country, even if it did take a MUTCD change to do it.

Why would you be confused?  The left signal like that is usually marked as "LEFT TURN SIGNAL".

[realjd]

While I was visiting family in Fort Wayne last weekend, I noticed a handful of red left turn arrows! Many (all?) of the lights along Coliseum Blvd. (SR-930) had them. These are the first I've seen in Indiana so far.

Coming from Florida, I always get mildly confused seeing both green balls and a red ball presented to a direction of traffic simultaneously. It's good IMO to see INDOT finally coming in line with most of the rest of the country, even if it did take a MUTCD change to do it.

Why would you be confused?  The left signal like that is usually marked as "LEFT TURN SIGNAL".

Red ball = all directions stop. Red arrow = that direction stop. Red ball + green ball = conflicting signals. At least that is how my brain works. And I see the light well before I can read the tiny "Left Turn Signal" sign. But regardless, if I see a red ball and a green ball simultaneously, I know the single red is for the turn, but my brain refuses to process it without effort.

[Alps]

While I was visiting family in Fort Wayne last weekend, I noticed a handful of red left turn arrows! Many (all?) of the lights along Coliseum Blvd. (SR-930) had them. These are the first I've seen in Indiana so far.

Coming from Florida, I always get mildly confused seeing both green balls and a red ball presented to a direction of traffic simultaneously. It's good IMO to see INDOT finally coming in line with most of the rest of the country, even if it did take a MUTCD change to do it.

Why would you be confused?  The left signal like that is usually marked as "LEFT TURN SIGNAL".

Red ball = all directions stop. Red arrow = that direction stop. Red ball + green ball = conflicting signals. At least that is how my brain works. And I see the light well before I can read the tiny "Left Turn Signal" sign. But regardless, if I see a red ball and a green ball simultaneously, I know the single red is for the turn, but my brain refuses to process it without effort.

You would hate massachusetts, where the same signal will simultaneously have a red ball and green arrow. Or, if you're especially unlucky, red and green ball together with a LEFT TURN SIGNAL sign.

[Brandon]

We have red balls and green arrows all the time here in Illinois on our 5 light towers.  Personally, I'd like to see protected-only left turn signals die a quick death.  I hate them.  All left turns should be protected-permissive or just permissive-only.

[2Co5_14]

We have red balls and green arrows all the time here in Illinois on our 5 light towers.  Personally, I'd like to see protected-only left turn signals die a quick death.  I hate them.  All left turns should be protected-permissive or just permissive-only.

I can relate to that frustration of having to wait multiple light cycles to wait for a protected-only left (I have one every day coming home from work).   That being said, there are good reasons for having them in certain situations.  Most agencies (including mine) require protected-only left signal indications for dual- or triple-lane lefts.  They are also needed for high speed approaches (45+ mph) or where there is limited sight distance.  It always comes down to the trade-off between safety and traffic capacity.

You would hate massachusetts, where the same signal will simultaneously have a red ball and green arrow. Or, if you're especially unlucky, red and green ball together with a LEFT TURN SIGNAL sign.

Some of those older Massachusetts signals are insane - definitely not MUTCD-compliant.  I remember how that cycle went: after the simultaneous red ball and green arrow (in the same signal head), the light would turn yellow, then red, then an arrow in a different direction simultaneously with the red!   I heard the really old traffic engineering guides had a rule that a green arrow should never be shown without an accompanying red ball - this was back when green arrows were just being introduced.

[Brandon]

We have red balls and green arrows all the time here in Illinois on our 5 light towers.  Personally, I'd like to see protected-only left turn signals die a quick death.  I hate them.  All left turns should be protected-permissive or just permissive-only.

I can relate to that frustration of having to wait multiple light cycles to wait for a protected-only left (I have one every day coming home from work).   That being said, there are good reasons for having them in certain situations.  Most agencies (including mine) require protected-only left signal indications for dual- or triple-lane lefts.  They are also needed for high speed approaches (45+ mph) or where there is limited sight distance.  It always comes down to the trade-off between safety and traffic capacity.

You'd love Telegraph Rd and Eight Mile Rd around Detroit then.  No left turns (you have to make a Michigan Left), and two cycles per signal.  Did I mention they're signed and timed for 45 mph?

[The Great Whamini]

A red arrow intersection was born in Evansville late last year at the intersection of US 41 & Baseline Rd.  The crossing was upgraded westbound to dual left turn lanes onto SB 41.  Signal upgrade was necessary.  There is a total of 3 left-protected arrow signals over WB Baseline (in addition to the two thruway signals realigned over a single thru lane).  That's unprecedented in Evansville.  Two overhead wire-suspended diagonally across 41, and one side-mounted on the far left corner.   Previously, Baseline Rd. had no protected left turn signals either way (US 41 does) due to it being a rural road.  But now with the relocation of North High School from the city to the sticks and not because of any increase in industrial sprawl, the intersection was improved, especially during school hours.

City/county officials proabably reasoned since the traffic pattern of Baseline was altered, red arrows are used to insure left-permissive habits of motorists are made aware they can't do this anymore.  Before, Baseline hadn't more than the standard red-yellow-green signals.

By extension, the red balls of left-on-arrow-only signals on US 41 were also converted to red arrows.

[tvketchum]

There is one just to the southwest of downtown Elkhart.

Eastbound I-465 at SR 37 Harding St on the south side has right red arrows on the signal assembly, as well. I know I saw another red arrow in Indianapolis on a recent INDOT project, but I can't recall exactly where.
Post Merge: February 29, 2012, 07:21:58 PM


Washington St in Downtown Indy sports red arrows on several intersections now that bike lanes have been added.

[tvketchum]

http://www.in.gov/activecalendar/EventList.aspx?view=EventDetails&eventidn=54651&information_id=109656&type=&syndicate=syndicate

Red arrows in Indiana are official, with or without the General Assembly.

[agentsteel53]

good.  the General Assembly has no business dabbling in traffic engineering.

[rawmustard]

It appears the commissioner of INDOT can order adoption of the federal manual (including all revisions) into the Indiana MUTCD (relevant sections quoted below).

IC 9-21-2-2
Conformance with other state and federally approved manuals
     Sec. 2. The Indiana Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways must substantially conform with the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways, 1961 Edition, and the Manual for Signing and Pavement Marking for the National System for Interstate and Defense Highways, 1962 Edition, and all other manuals and revisions to the manuals that have the approval of the Federal Highway Administrator.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9.


IC 9-21-2-3
Revisions to manual; approval by department of transportation
     Sec. 3. All manuals (including revisions to the manuals) described in section 2 of this chapter may be considered to become a part of the Indiana Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Streets and Highways if the following conditions exist:
        (1) The Indiana department of transportation concurs in the revisions.
        (2) The Indiana department of transportation adopts the manuals (including revisions) by order of the commissioner of the Indiana department of transportation.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.36-2008, SEC.2.

And just to note, Chapter 3 of Title 9 Article 21 makes reference to red arrows in section 7.

[tvketchum]

The online version of the Indiana MUTCD no longer has the preface in the sections on signals, regarding where it discussed red arrow indications had not been defined by the general assembly, and until such time, to regard the red arrow description to mean circular red. Maybe the general assembly found time between the discussions of the lesbians and communists controlling the girl scouts to actually pass something of use.

[The Great Whamini]

Wel... If RA's become the norm in IN, then FYA's can't be far behind.

[The Great Whamini]

Two more left-turn RA signals have cropped up at the JCTs of US 50/150 @ IN 57, and US 50/150 @ IN 257 south of Washington.

[mukade]

Also in Vincennes at the US 41/Old SR 61 exit, but I would guess they are all over the Vincennes district (of which Evansville and Washington are a part of). I saw several.

Crawfordsville district also announced they will be converting quickly.

[sr641]

There are some red arrows in Terre Haute and Bloomington now.

[The High Plains Traveler]

We have red balls and green arrows all the time here in Illinois on our 5 light towers.  Personally, I'd like to see protected-only left turn signals die a quick death.  I hate them.  All left turns should be protected-permissive or just permissive-only.

Kind of a heady statement for all intersections everywhere. I drive along a corridor with a 65 mph speed limit and traffic signals at intersections with two left-turn lanes both directions. If any vehicles at all are queued in the oncoming lanes, oncoming traffic is obscured. While I am in favor of protected-permissive indications where safe, there are intersections in my area where protected-only lefts are appropriate, especially during rush hour. CDOT has converted signals at all but one of the intersections along U.S. 50 west of I-25 in the city limits of Pueblo (east of the high-speed corridor I referenced above) to four-light heads to allow either permissive only or permissive-protective cycles, with FYA.

[The Great Whamini]

They're moving fast in Indiana.  Now RA signals are complete on US 41 north of Evansville's city limits into Gibson county (Warrenton, Fort Branch, Princeton).

[mukade]

I noticed that two decent sized Indiana towns Fishers (~77K) and Kokomo (~55K) have completely replaced their signals so they are black with a black backplate. They remind me of traffic lights in Illinois except they still have the doghouse style configurations. Roads maintained by the state still have yellow signals in these cities.

Although these signal assemblies are brand new, there are no red arrows and no FYA, FWIW.

Is anyone aware of other Indiana cities where this mass conversion is taking place?

[tdindy88]

Greenwood did this to most of their traffic lights last year, and Indianapolis had done this at a few intersections on the south side, but only a few. No red arrows with any of these assemblies from what I've seen.

[tvketchum]

Northbound IN 67 in Mooresville has a U turn red arrow at Hadley Road. There is no road to the left, but a signal was provided to facilitate U turn movements at the intersection.