Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[sprjus4]

(I-26, I'm looking at you, buddy.)

I-26 continues north beyond I-81 in order to serve Kingsport, a city of nearly 60,000 and also one of the three major Tri-Cities in that corner of the state. It was previously I-181, they were not going to downgrade it.

The interstate designation does not end at the state line / end of the freeway, it ends at US-11W which is a logical terminus point allowed by the FHWA.

[Bobby5280]

Not counting the various in-progress Interstates with stubs-a-plenty, the Northern end of I-26 is arguably the oddest permanent terminus in the Interstate network. There are other ends I don't like either but that one on I-26 is one of my least favorite. I would have preferred them leaving that signed as I-181. US-23 is co-signed at the I-26/I-81 interchange. So I don't think it would be confusing for I-181 to be going North with US-23 NB and I-26 going East with US-23 SB.

With that being said, I'd be shocked if the Interstate designation on US-412 was extended East of I-49. The next US highway intersection with US-412 East of the I-49 corridor is with US-62 in Alpena. I don't see an Interstate upgrade of US-412 getting that far. I could maybe see it going as far as the AR-23 Super 2 interchange North of Huntsville, AR. That's not all that far East of Springdale. Most of that existing segment is 4-lane divided and fairly easy to upgrade.

I think I mentioned before some time ago, but I think it would be funny as hell if the US-412 designation turned out to be I-412. I can imagine them cramming the "412" digits into a 2-digit shield too. That I-238 nonsense near Oakland already establishes a precedent of sorts for 3-digit Interstate orphan routes. In the case of an "I-412" there would be at least some logic to it for route number continuation. Also some of the 400-series of US routes are orphans themselves. US-412 sure doesn't connect to US-12.

[rte66man]

I think I mentioned before some time ago, but I think it would be funny as hell if the US-412 designation turned out to be I-412. I can imagine them cramming the "412" digits into a 2-digit shield too. That I-238 nonsense near Oakland already establishes a precedent of sorts for 3-digit Interstate orphan routes. In the case of an "I-412" there would be at least some logic to it for route number continuation. Also some of the 400-series of US routes are orphans themselves. US-412 sure doesn't connect to US-12.

++++1. That would be perfect!!    

[The Ghostbuster]

Interstate 238 is an Interstate extension of a state highway, given all possible x80 designations were unavailable. Numbering the future US 412 corridor as Interstate 412 would be the definition of insanity to me.

[Rothman]

Interstate 238 is an Interstate extension of a state highway, given all possible x80 designations were unavailable. Numbering the future US 412 corridor as Interstate 412 would be the definition of insanity to me.

Heh.  Your standard for insanity ia quite low.

[The Ghostbuster]

I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.

[Road Hog]

The whole US 4xx fiasco had to be the product of a bad pizza party at AASHTO headquarters. Check the mushrooms.

[Molandfreak]

Most people aren't even aware there are numbering rules for US highways, let alone the implied parent/child relationships of two- and three-digit US highways. The logic of these relationships wasn't always clear to begin with since US 220, US 410, and US 830 never connected with their "parents"  in the first place. Any sense of order in the US highway system was completely thrown out the window when truncations started taking place, so the fact that they gave up on having new routes make sense from the intent of the initial numbering scheme isn't all that surprising to me.

Having said that, most people seem to vaguely be aware that the purpose of three-digit interstates are to provide shorter/local connections. Since the intent of this corridor is to provide a connection between two metro areas across a state line, I wouldn't opt for a three-digit interstate here.

[splashflash]

The whole US 4xx fiasco had to be the product of a bad pizza party at AASHTO headquarters. Check the  :hmmm:mushrooms.

Following the Ontario 400 series, but without the royal crown 👑.

[Bobby5280]

The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number.

The problem is US-412 does exist and has existed since the early 1980's. So that genie has been out of the bottle for quite some time. The same is true for vanity Interstate designations that don't fit the number grid (cough: I-99).

The Interstate being proposed from Springdale thru Tulsa to some desolate spot on I-35 is definitely NOT a major highway corridor. I wouldn't have a problem with them burning "minor" designations such as "I-46" or "I-48" on this route. But it would be a form of parody to use the "I-50" designation, the next most major possible designation next to "I-1".

An "I-412" designation for that portion of US-412 seems like a joke. But it does make sense in certain respects. There is no way the entire US-412 route will ever be upgraded to Interstate standards (nor should it be). A consistent "412" number would please those who worry different route numbers along that mixed-standard corridor would confuse motorists. Springdale to I-35 would be kind of long for a 3-digit route, but not all that long. The "parent" I-12 route in Louisiana is something of a joke on its own; it should have been a 3-digit I-x10 route. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. I don't see how it would hurt things for a "I-412" route to be a bigger thing than its distant "parent."

[Road Hog]

Perhaps the UK way of numbering non-motorway motorways could be put to use here, namely US 412 (I).

[Bobby5280]

In another era the section of US-412 to be re-designated as an Interstate would end up being an un-signed Interstate. Due to the political pomp and circumstance surrounding the legislation it looks like an un-signed I-route is unlikely. It's going to have to be called something. I'll probably be laughing if they choose "I-412" and laughing even harder if they use 2-digit shields.

[Scott5114]

There is no way the entire US-412 route will ever be upgraded to Interstate standards (nor should it be). A consistent "412" number would please those who worry different route numbers along that mixed-standard corridor would confuse motorists.

Is anyone likely to want to follow the entire US-412 corridor to begin with? If you ask Google for a route between its endpoint it suggests using I-40 to the Texas panhandle and angling northwest from there. The two routes that actually use a decent amount of US-412 both pick it up in Tulsa.

[Henry]

I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.

For that matter, I-69 will never be completed either, at least not in our lifetimes. I had to LOL at the I-412 proposal, which may replace I-238 as the most ridiculous number out there. But the main difference is, I-12 exists and I-38 does not.

[Rover_0]

I think the Interstate 41/US 41 duplex is logical; the Interstate 74/US 74 duplex is rather absurd (considering Interstate 74 probably shouldn't even exist in North Carolina, but was written into law along with an out-of-place Interstate 73, neither of which will ever be completed as proposed via ISTEA in 1991). The reason I call an Interstate 412/US 412 the definition of insanity is because I don't think US 412 should even exist, at least not as its existing number. Like US 400 and US 425, US 412 is a way-out-of-place US Highway designation (so is US 163 in Arizona and Utah, as well as US 191 between Yellowstone National Park, WY and Douglas, AZ, but that's another thread). I think a better designation would have been US 162, since there aren't a lot of 2-digit US Highway designations that could have been chosen.

FWIW I did put in a suggestion to OkDOT and ArDOT for the planned Interstate along US-412 to be numbered I-58, with a possible extended US-58 to act as a continuation when not up to standards, with a Google Map showing the route. Another possibility would be to extend US-74 west over US-412 from Chattanooga. I'll probably post the map in Fictional Highways given that's the territory I've entered so far with this post, but who knows? Maybe someone likes it--or a similar concept. I do like the idea of 412 instead getting numbered US-162.

As for real-world designations, weren't there some construction documents stating the Interstate as (a western) I-42 or something like that?

[sprjus4]

VDOT has thrown around the "I-58"  label for a potential US-58 interstate upgrade between Hampton Roads and I-95 / I-85, although that would be years if not decades away.

I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina. I would see I-46 or I-48 being reasonable for this US-412 route, if not I-x35, I-x44, or I-x49.

[Bobby5280]

Is anyone likely to want to follow the entire US-412 corridor to begin with?

Springer, NM to Columbia, TN would be an odd road trip. But I could imagine motorists following pretty significant stretches of US-412.

For instance, anyone in the Tulsa area wanting to go hunting, fishing or skiing in Northern New Mexico spots like Eagle Nest, Angel Fire, etc would follow US-412 to its end at Springer as part of getting there. Motorists would travel over a combination of highway types carrying the same number.

I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina.

I-42 is a "major" Interstate? More like minor intra-state to be honest. The "I-412" idea might be better than a second, disconnected I-42 designation -all while looking kind of like an I-42 marker.

[The Ghostbuster]

The US 412 designation should not have been extended west of Guymon, OK since it duplicates existing US Routes from there to Springer, NM. Then again, I also think OK 3's western terminus should have been at US 81 southeast of Okarche, since it has to duplex with numerous other routes to get to the Colorado border.

[sprjus4]

I-42 is the designation for a future major interstate in eastern North Carolina.

I-42 is a "major" Interstate? More like minor intra-state to be honest. The "I-412" idea might be better than a second, disconnected I-42 designation -all while looking kind of like an I-42 marker.

Major in terms of importance. The route sees over 30,000 AADT on most of it, and is a major connecting route for Raleigh / Greensboro towards the Crystal Coast, especially during the summer.

Maybe not importance on a national scale, but it's certainly an important route for those in North Carolina.

[MikieTimT]

US 412 a freeway all the way to Interstate 55? A Fictional Highways proposal if I ever heard one. Outside of maybe a few more bypasses around towns, I doubt any more of US 412 in Arkansas will be upgraded to freeway standards.

Never say never.  I don't see it happening within 4 decades, but a lot can change to make us look dumb when forecasting over 2 decades even.  For example, who would have thought that Siloam Springs would need a bypass when they started the project that resulted in the 6 laning of US-412 through town a couple of decades back?  I could see a push to make US-65 into an Interstate highway between Conway and Springfield within 3 decades time, and that changes the calculus for an extension of I-50 to Harrison.

[bugo]

FWIW I did put in a suggestion to OkDOT and ArDOT for the planned Interstate along US-412 to be numbered I-58, with a possible extended US-58 to act as a continuation when not up to standards, with a Google Map showing the route. Another possibility would be to extend US-74 west over US-412 from Chattanooga. I'll probably post the map in Fictional Highways given that's the territory I've entered so far with this post, but who knows? Maybe someone likes it--or a similar concept. I do like the idea of 412 instead getting numbered US-162.

I would do the opposite. Rename US 74 to US 412. This would eliminate the confusing 74 West/74 West split.

[The Ghostbuster]

I'd do it the other way around, replace US 412 with US 74.

[Plutonic Panda]

US-412A improvements meeting in Delaware county. Not this isn't directly related to the interstate upgrade but will compliment it. Meeting is august 3rd: https://us-412a-poe.hub.arcgis.com/

[bugo]

It's going to be Interstate 42:

a) Districts IV and VIII — Delaware, Mayes, Rogers, Tulsa, Osage, Pawnee, Payne and Noble Counties
Add Designation of I-42 in various locations throughout the state

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/transportation-commision/agenda/2023/tc_agenda-202309-r.pdf

[bugo]

Here's the relevant part of the ODOT document referencing I-42: