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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: froggie on August 14, 2018, 11:20:45 PM

Title: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: froggie on August 14, 2018, 11:20:45 PM
At least, that's what I'm calling it.

The province is in the process of building a bypass around Cornwall (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-cornwall-bypass-project-1.4271396), to be completed later next year.  The bypass will run to the north of Cronwall and tie into the recently completed roundabout at TCH-1/PEI 248 at North River.

I found the EIS for the bypass and it's....interesting.  The way they describe the bypass, it is effectively a freeway segment.  There will be two interchanges along the bypass, a diamond at Cronwall Rd and a trumpet where it ties back into existing TCH-1 near Clyde River.  The remaining cross roads (including PEI 247) will be bridged.  These will be only the 2nd and 3rd interchanges on the island...the trumpet at TCH-1/PEI 1A being the only existing interchange.

The EIS notes the bypass will be a mix of 2 and 4 lanes but there are no maps or description stating where the transition from 2 to 4 will occur.  So it's possible the bypass will be mostly a Super-2 instead of a full 4-lane freeway.  But it will be fully-controlled access nonetheless.

(H/T yakra for the find)
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Alps on August 15, 2018, 12:52:20 AM
There are a lot of recent bypasses west of there. Current Google satellite imagery shows the eastern stub of the new bypass and, past an image seam at New Haven, several alignments (with road layer on) that were not yet built at the time of the imagery.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on August 15, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
There are a lot of recent bypasses west of there. Current Google satellite imagery shows the eastern stub of the new bypass and, past an image seam at New Haven, several alignments (with road layer on) that were not yet built at the time of the imagery.

Yes…..a 6km section of TCH 1 was realigned between New Haven and Bonshaw to straighten and lessen grades on the highest point on the TCH on PEI at Strathgartney:

https://goo.gl/maps/3ANJtmPjhCq

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ydAi0YceTM0/VkOC1lGvfAI/AAAAAAAAPs8/Z19wNM9MF4w/s800-Ic42/IMG_5294.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VePjYEjyyE8/VkODR4wvV2I/AAAAAAAAPtM/GUwNB3fLJhk/s800-Ic42/IMG_5298.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SycHzYO69dc/VkOGEY2G10I/AAAAAAAAPuA/b5ErNoWJALQ/s800-Ic42/IMG_5301.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-d7ShJd9s0q8/VkOGEmoskdI/AAAAAAAAPt8/lDIzsTdy32s/s800-Ic42/IMG_5299.JPG)
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on August 16, 2018, 12:25:29 PM

...........So it's possible the bypass will be mostly a Super-2 instead of a full 4-lane freeway.  But it will be fully-controlled access nonetheless.

PEI might have had a ‘Super 2 Freeway’ segment as far back as the late ’60s when a Causeway (not a bridge) was proposed between New Brunswick and PEI. The alignment was graded between Borden and the TCH-1/PEI-1A interchange at Albany Corner and can still be followed in this Google view:

https://goo.gl/maps/XPxtuvXw9NE2

An overpass was even constructed to carry PEI-10 over this alignment at Carlton Siding and it’s still there in the middle of a farmer’s field:


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HBV5lO0Uun4/UBMco2jpuDI/AAAAAAAAI6o/Y9gdgGxYH0Q/s800/IMG_0862.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R6QDNEhcw7k/UBMdAAYIyvI/AAAAAAAAI60/rCmkLFVUnmk/s800/IMG_0867.JPG)


But when the Confederation Bridge was built in the ‘90s….the new TCH alignment was kept closer to town passing near the new Gateway Village and Welcome Centre. It was thought that keeping traffic close would give the town a bit of an economic boost after the loss of the many ferry service jobs.


Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 16, 2018, 01:31:53 PM
PEI might have had a ‘Super 2 Freeway’ segment as far back as the late ’60s when a Causeway (not a bridge) was proposed between New Brunswick and PEI.

How would a causeway (earthen fill embankment in water body) construction have worked?  Isn't the water over 70 feet deep in places?  What about tides which are large in Northumberland Strait?
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: froggie on August 16, 2018, 04:37:23 PM
^ The tides are not all that large.  At Borden, PEI, mean tidal range is 1.5m (~5ft) with a max tidal range of 2.3m (~7.5ft).  Tidal ranges are a little less on the New Brunswick side.

Water maxes out at around 100 feet deep...but that's in the middle of the channel so I imagine there would have been some high-level bridge there for ships to pass under.  Each end probably could have been done somewhat on embankment.  For almost a mile from the New Brunswick side (but only 1/4mi from PEI), the water is less than 30 feet deep.  The middle 2 miles of the channel has water 50 feet or deeper and that's where you'd probably need the bridge versus a causeway.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 16, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
^ The tides are not all that large.  At Borden, PEI, mean tidal range is 1.5m (~5ft) with a max tidal range of 2.3m (~7.5ft).  Tidal ranges are a little less on the New Brunswick side.

Still there are large volumes of waters flowing in and out of the strait twice a day, and a causeway even with a few gaps would constrict that water flow.

Water maxes out at around 100 feet deep...but that's in the middle of the channel so I imagine there would have been some high-level bridge there for ships to pass under.  Each end probably could have been done somewhat on embankment.  For almost a mile from the New Brunswick side (but only 1/4mi from PEI), the water is less than 30 feet deep.  The middle 2 miles of the channel has water 50 feet or deeper and that's where you'd probably need the bridge versus a causeway.

Highway causeways are massive earthen structures.  Figure roadway at least 8 feet above mean high water, 50 feet on either side of the roadway and then 4:1 slopes down to the earthen bottom.

The locale in Florida where I grew up has lots of them over the Indian River and Banana River, and in waters up to maybe 8 feet deep in a few places but mostly no more than 5 feet deep.  The Indian River and Banana River have been classified as lagoons as while they are technically rivers their inlets/outlets are so small that the waters are nearly stagnant, i.e, no tides and very little flow.

NASA Causeway -- https://tinyurl.com/y7ddgsbj

Under today's environmental regulations it is almost impossible to build such a structure, and there would be a bridge all the way across the river.

For Northumberland Strait figure something like the CBBT manmade islands but 5+ miles long.


Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on August 17, 2018, 06:27:43 AM
As far back as the 1880’s…a rail tunnel to PEI was proposed. The 1960’s causeway would have had road and rail with a tunnel portion to permit ship traffic to pass.

Politics killed both of those proposals.

Just east of PEI is the Canso Causeway (road and rail) linking mainland Nova Scotia to Cape Breton Island. Here’s a link to the AARoads Forum with photos:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16747.0


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7Zh8P3lLX0c/VjY7M_QGp4I/AAAAAAAAPnQ/IICzAFU63_c/s800-Ic42/77-10Scan10119.JPG)


The Canso Causeway was built in the 1950’s. At the centre, it’s 200’ deep with a 800’ wide base on the seabed.

Environmental concerns today would never have allowed it to be constructed. The lobster fishery on the SE coast of Cape Breton was wiped out and tides were altered in the Strait requiring a Tidal Lock in the Causeway for ship traffic to pass.

The Causeway did create an ice-free deep water harbour on the south side that can handle any ship afloat today without restriction.   
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 17, 2018, 07:17:47 AM
The Canso Causeway was built in the 1950’s. At the centre, it’s 200’ deep with a 800’ wide base on the seabed.
Environmental concerns today would never have allowed it to be constructed.  The lobster fishery on the SE coast of Cape Breton was wiped out and tides were altered in the Strait requiring a Tidal Lock in the Causeway for ship traffic to pass.
The Causeway did create an ice-free deep water harbour on the south side that can handle any ship afloat today without restriction.   

The Canso Causeway looks like an engineering disaster -- https://tinyurl.com/y7b3qtt2

If the water was that deep it would be far more expensive to build than a bridge.

It also has a canal and lock for marine traffic.  A lock because presumably while the waters are at sea level the tidal actions would cause different water levels on either side at some times of the day and/or heavy currents if there was an open channel.

The Strait of Canso is a long thin channel approximately 27 kilometres long and averaging 3 kilometres wide (1 km at its narrowest).

About 10 million tons of rock for building the causeway was quarried from a mountain on Cape Porcupine.  That is the size of a small mountain.  Causeways require massive amounts of fill material that has to be excavated from somewhere nearby.

This Wikipedia quote shows some unique geographical characteristics that may favor a causeway, but shows major negative consequences as well --
When the causeway was completed, the eastern end of the Strait of Canso became ice free during the winter.  Several industries were attracted to the Point Tupper area, including the Stora pulp and paper mill, a Gulf Oil refinery and a heavy water plant.
Aside from blocking sea ice, the blocking of the Strait of Canso caused significant environmental damage from the enormous changes in the tidal regime of the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence all the way to the mouth of the St. Lawrence River.  The causeway also had the effect of damming the waterway for migrating ground fish stocks for decades until some of these species were able to determine how to get around Cape Breton Island into the gulf.  In addition, the causeway allowed several non-native species of land animals access onto Cape Breton Island.  One particularly troublesome interloper has been the bobcat, which has slowly forced the more gentle lynx out of its traditional hunting grounds and up into the Cape Breton Highlands.



Northumberland Strait is a sea strait and I seriously doubt that any section of the crossing would be more feasibly built on causeway than on a bridge.

Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on August 17, 2018, 08:13:31 AM
The rock-fill material for the causeway was right there. The face of Cape Porcupine Mountain was quarried then dumped in the strait less than a mile away providing work for local truckers. A bridge might have been more expensive.


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_3NhiE_bkXY/VjY7Vmnqv-I/AAAAAAAAPnc/HEZX58CZC_E/s800-Ic42/IMG_5034.JPG)


Today’s environmental concerns would probably not have permitted the face of Cape Porcupine to be quarried. Martin-Marietta Corp. still maintains a quarry here but it’s all done ‘inside’ the mountain. 

https://goo.gl/maps/X6NS93LfALu
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 17, 2018, 08:59:27 AM
The rock-fill material for the causeway was right there. The face of Cape Porcupine Mountain was quarried then dumped in the strait less than a mile away providing work for local truckers. A bridge might have been more expensive.

I rather doubt that.  Causeways are normally found in shallow (like less than 8 feet) waters that are non-tidal and have little or no flow. 

The aerial photo made it clear where the material came from, and that the mountain had been torn apart like by a small atom bomb.

Regarding the Brevard County, Florida causeways that I mentioned (all built prior the early 1970s), there have been official discussions in the last 10 years or so about the negative environmental impacts, and the environmental benefits from building bridges and removing the causeways and restoring the original ground on the river bottom.  It was concluded that while there may be major benefits that this would be extremely expensive financially and might create even more negative environmental impacts in the process of moving the material to a disposal area (and finding one in the first place for millions of cubic yards of earth, actually several given that the causeways are many miles apart) and restoring the original ground on the river bottom.   An official decision to leave them as is.  But the takeaway from this is that older causeways are now viewed as problematic enough that this replacement has been considered.

Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 17, 2018, 09:17:04 AM
Fun facts about the Brevard County, Florida causeways --

Mainland to barrier island crossings -- 8
River crossings -- 13
Manmade islands and peninsulas -- 33
Waterway bridges -- 21
Relief bridges -- 21
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on August 17, 2018, 09:49:34 AM
(BTW…we’re getting a bit OT here……moving down the road from PEI to Cape Breton!)

This was the 1950’s in an economically depressed area. The material was there and local workers/truckers were employed. Bridge components and bridge labourers would have come from away.

Here’s the bridge proposed in 1903:

http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/sgc-cms/histoires_de_chez_nous-community_memories/pm_v2.php?id=display_original&lg=English&fl=0&rd=135888

http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/sgc-cms/histoires_de_chez_nous-community_memories/pm_v2.php?id=story_line&lg=English&fl=0&ex=00000566&sl=4495&pos=1&pf=1#5
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Beltway on August 17, 2018, 05:46:48 PM
This was the 1950’s in an economically depressed area. The material was there and local workers/truckers were employed. Bridge components and bridge labourers would have come from away.
Here’s the bridge proposed in 1903:
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/sgc-cms/histoires_de_chez_nous-community_memories/pm_v2.php?id=display_original&lg=English&fl=0&rd=135888

So the two main piers/towers are in 90 foot depth water, and an 1,800 foot long main span over the deep waters.

Description of what they made permanent changes to--

The dream and necessity of a permanent crossing at the Strait of Canso between mainland Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island was in the hearts and minds of Cape Bretoners for many years.  This very deep waterway with swift running tides, winds blowing fiercely down through the Strait and huge ice floes in winter, had always made it a challenge to cross from the time of the earliest settlement in the 1780's.

Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Richard3 on August 19, 2018, 02:09:04 AM
What about going back to the PEI's first freeway segment, now...

It would have been great if the eastern end of that freeway connected at TCH-1 and Upton Rd. at Beach Grove instead of at PE-248 roundabout at North River.

The article says this is phase 2B of the entire project, and the PEI website mentioning that phase 1 and 2A are already done. But imagine this entire project as the step 1 of a multi-step freeway project, bypassing the entire Cornwall/Charlottetown/Cross Roads area, so let's see the other steps.

- Step 2: Building another segment of TCH-1, starting west at the new TCH-1 (this new freeway) east of Cornwall Rd., crossing PE-235 and 248 west and north of North River, then crossing York River and connecting to TCH-1 roundabout at Upton Rd. at Beach Grove.

- Step 3: Building another new segment of TCH-1, starting north of Queen Elisabeth Hospital in Falconwood, crossing Hillsborough River, then PE-21 east of Duffy Rd., and connecting actual TCH-1 a bit east of Brookside Dr., towards Hazelbrook.

- Step 4: Turn actual Charlottetown Bypass, between steps 2 and 3, into a freeway, building interchanges at Upton Rd., Malpeque Rd. (PE-2 West), Brackley Point Rd. (PE-15), St. Peters Rd. (PE-2 East, Veterans Memorial Hwy), and Riverside Dr. (actual TCH-1).

This entire project would take another decade to be realized, depending of available budgets.

What about that?  It would make a really more easy way to bypass the entire Charlottetown area, especially for truck drivers.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: froggie on August 20, 2018, 09:09:45 AM
That would be useful, yes...but now you're straying into fictional territory.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Richard3 on August 28, 2018, 12:03:10 AM
That would be useful, yes...but now you're straying into fictional territory.

...yeah, I know!
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Richard3 on October 19, 2019, 07:00:56 PM
I resurrect this topic to ask a question; is there somebody who project to run Cornwall bypass once opened?

And when will it be open to traffic, exactly?

Incidentally, I have a couple of vacation weeks to take...
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Chris on October 20, 2019, 04:35:16 AM
Google Earth has imagery of the bypass from June and July 2019.

The roadway looks too narrow for a freeway, the bridges are 14 meters wide. Maybe there will be auxiliary lanes between exits?

(https://i.imgur.com/6nFEU3r.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/X2CgnPi.jpg)
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: oscar on October 20, 2019, 07:54:32 PM
I resurrect this topic to ask a question; is there somebody who project to run Cornwall bypass once opened?

And when will it be open to traffic, exactly?

Incidentally, I have a couple of vacation weeks to take...

It will open 7am Atlantic time tomorrow (by coincidence -- or maybe not -- on your Election Day).

https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/alert/trans-canada-highway-realignment-opening-monday
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: vdeane on October 20, 2019, 08:49:24 PM
The roadway looks too narrow for a freeway, the bridges are 14 meters wide. Maybe there will be auxiliary lanes between exits?
Ever hear of a super-2?
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Chris on October 21, 2019, 12:30:58 PM
The first post of this thread was about whether this would be a freeway or not.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2019, 12:55:28 PM
I'm using the roadgeek definition (http://www.roadfan.com/mtrfaq.html#95) of super-2.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: froggie on October 22, 2019, 09:05:43 AM
Hence why it's appropriate to differentiate between a limited-access Super-2 or a controlled-access Super-2.  Not all roadgeek adhere to the roadfan.com definition.  Note that in my OP I did conclude that it would be fully-controlled access and that the environmental document indicated it would be a mix of 2 and 4 lanes.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: webny99 on October 22, 2019, 09:14:35 AM
I don't think it's possible to argue, for example, that NY 104 from Williamson to Wolcott is not a Super 2.
Sure, it has at-grades, but the overall character of the road, and the fact that there's ROW for four lanes, are the defining features.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on October 22, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
I don't think it's possible to argue, for example, that NY 104 from Williamson to Wolcott is not a Super 2.

Sure it is. NY-104 is not a Super 2.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: oscar on October 22, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
I drove the Cornwall Bypass earlier today. Some quick notes, with more to follow:

-- The bypass is two lanes undivided with some passing lanes. One interchange in the middle, plus one at its west end (the east end is at a roundabout). And no at-grade intersections. I would call it a freeway, and a Super 2 at that.

-- No obvious plans or potential for expansion or extension. I drove it westbound during Charlottetown's rush hour, no problem handling the volume.

-- No exit numbers. There will be exit numbers on Saskatchewan's soon-to-open Regina Bypass. That might leave PEI as the only province with a freeway but no exit numbers.

-- 90 km/h posted speed limit. That's the max I've seen on other parts of the TCH in PEI, and IIRC on any other PEI highway.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: webny99 on October 22, 2019, 08:57:19 PM
I don't think it's possible to argue, for example, that NY 104 from Williamson to Wolcott is not a Super 2.
Sure it is. NY-104 is not a Super 2.

That's just a (false) statement, not an argument.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:18:36 PM
Hm.  I liked PEI when I visited it back in the late 1980s. 

A bypass?  Sounds like PEI has built up considerably and I wonder if it has been for the better.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Alps on October 22, 2019, 11:43:36 PM
Hm.  I liked PEI when I visited it back in the late 1980s. 

A bypass?  Sounds like PEI has built up considerably and I wonder if it has been for the better.
Mostly around Ctown, and not enough to destroy the island's character that I've noticed.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: ghYHZ on October 23, 2019, 03:39:44 AM
Here...take a drive....(found this posted on YouTube)


Hope to get over to the Island this weekend for a drive.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: X99 on October 23, 2019, 12:32:59 PM
And with that video, I have marked the Cornwall Bypass on OpenStreetMap as open between its east end and the Cornwall Road interchange, tagged as a motorway. Everything west of the interchange is still marked with construction tags because the west end needs to be redrawn and I don't know what it looks like.
Title: !
Post by: paulthemapguy on October 25, 2019, 06:23:48 PM
Wow!  I didn't realize when I drove across PEI on October 1st that I'd be within one month's time of the new freeway opening!  I tried to take some pictures driving through there, but this was the only good one that turned out.  This photo shows the westbound on-ramp at the western end of the new freeway.  Flaggers routed us around the two new roundabouts at the interchange.

Sections of TCH-1 on the north and northwest sides of Charlottetown are super-2-esque in nature, too, but with no ramps to make it plainly obvious (see the overpass over Provincial Highway 236).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48960003977_1d43cb9b71_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAqPrB)
IMG_4347 (https://flic.kr/p/2hAqPrB) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: oscar on October 26, 2019, 08:31:32 PM
And with that video, I have marked the Cornwall Bypass on OpenStreetMap as open between its east end and the Cornwall Road interchange, tagged as a motorway. Everything west of the interchange is still marked with construction tags because the west end needs to be redrawn and I don't know what it looks like.

Since it's open to traffic, why mark it with construction tags? The part west of the interchange needs some corrections, mainly to show the interchange at the west end, and eliminate the supposed at-grade intersections. But the greater error is to show it as not yet open to traffic.

The interchange at the west end is roughly similar to the one at Cornwall Rd., with ramps from both EB and WB TCH 1, each connecting to a small traffic circle (from WB, just a partial circle, since there's no road continuing north of the circle). There is a small bypassed fragment of Main St. south of the interchange, which is not signed with a route number.

You could also mark the old TCH through Cornwall and Clyde River as PEI route 27. The video shows route 27 markers at the west end of the bypass in both directions. This photo I took the day after the bypass opened (http://www.alaskaroads.com/TCH1+PE27+PE248-eastend-CornwallBypass-DSC_9181.jpg) shows a route 27 marker for the off-ramp for Main St., at the traffic circle at the east end of the bypass.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: X99 on October 27, 2019, 12:00:51 AM
And with that video, I have marked the Cornwall Bypass on OpenStreetMap as open between its east end and the Cornwall Road interchange, tagged as a motorway. Everything west of the interchange is still marked with construction tags because the west end needs to be redrawn and I don't know what it looks like.

Since it's open to traffic, why mark it with construction tags? The part west of the interchange needs some corrections
You kinda answered your own question for me. I can't make those corrections since I don't know what they look like. I live in South Dakota, not Prince Edward Island.

But I see your reasoning. I will mark the rest of the route as open, with a fixme request and a map note at the west end.
Title: Re: PEI's first freeway segment?
Post by: Richard3 on December 13, 2020, 04:51:39 AM
I dust off that topic just to say...

Yes, it's a super-2.