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Extending I-45 to Oklahoma?

Started by US71, March 07, 2018, 08:56:54 PM

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Bobby5280

The Oklahoma state legislature has hardly any big picture views on anything at all. Their thinking is strictly stuck in the immediate short term. No planning for anything. Throw out a bunch of tax cut candy for voters. Then make deep cuts in all sorts of agencies, like "communist" public education. Then be surprised when teachers are fleeing by the thousands to neighboring states and local school districts are falling into a state of crisis. Families and even businesses start following those teachers out of the state.

The funny thing is many of those same "lawmakers" view highways as a form of communism too. Why waste many millions (or billions) of dollars on public works projects like roads? Not when the same taxpayer money can be handed back as tax cuts and/or re-directed to "public-private" partnerships to get some members of the good ole boy's network handsomely paid. Oklahoma is doing really well with its one-party legislature controlling all branches of government. We're ranking at or near dead last in every category.

It's a miracle we haven't had a super-spreader incident with this whole SARS-CoV-2 thing so far. Much of the state is, at best, doing half-ass half measures. The funny thing is Lawton, of all places, is one of the few towns in the state taking this pandemic pretty seriously. We already have a lot of restrictions in place, with new ones fixing to go into effect. Unfortunately there are no gates keeping people in the more lax areas from entering our town and further infecting the place.

So, with all that sad crap as a back drop, it sets up pretty well the constraints within which ODOT has to operate. We could have a better highway system and even sophisticated 4-level directional stack freeway to freeway interchanges, just like down in Texas. But we can't have that kind of stuff while our state legislature is staffed with too many short-sighted idiots.


edwaleni

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 07, 2020, 11:38:03 PM
The Oklahoma state legislature has hardly any big picture views on anything at all. Their thinking is strictly stuck in the immediate short term. No planning for anything. Throw out a bunch of tax cut candy for voters. Then make deep cuts in all sorts of agencies, like "communist" public education. Then be surprised when teachers are fleeing by the thousands to neighboring states and local school districts are falling into a state of crisis. Families and even businesses start following those teachers out of the state.

The funny thing is many of those same "lawmakers" view highways as a form of communism too. Why waste many millions (or billions) of dollars on public works projects like roads? Not when the same taxpayer money can be handed back as tax cuts and/or re-directed to "public-private" partnerships to get some members of the good ole boy's network handsomely paid. Oklahoma is doing really well with its one-party legislature controlling all branches of government. We're ranking at or near dead last in every category.

It's a miracle we haven't had a super-spreader incident with this whole SARS-CoV-2 thing so far. Much of the state is, at best, doing half-ass half measures. The funny thing is Lawton, of all places, is one of the few towns in the state taking this pandemic pretty seriously. We already have a lot of restrictions in place, with new ones fixing to go into effect. Unfortunately there are no gates keeping people in the more lax areas from entering our town and further infecting the place.

So, with all that sad crap as a back drop, it sets up pretty well the constraints within which ODOT has to operate. We could have a better highway system and even sophisticated 4-level directional stack freeway to freeway interchanges, just like down in Texas. But we can't have that kind of stuff while our state legislature is staffed with too many short-sighted idiots.

While I would agree Oklahoma has made some odd decisions (especially around dealing with teachers unions), the facts are pretty clear that OK does not have as diverse an economy as Texas. Therefore they don't have the means to balance out revenue streams year after year. Oklahoma has no ocean port. Population density is not inline with Texas. A percentage of land is pre-allocated to tribal use. Their major GDP generation is around oil, agriculture and military. After that is aggregates and health care. If tornadoes created revenue, I am sure the Moore F5 would have paid everyone's bills.

sparker

Quote from: edwaleni on April 08, 2020, 01:57:31 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 07, 2020, 11:38:03 PM
The Oklahoma state legislature has hardly any big picture views on anything at all. Their thinking is strictly stuck in the immediate short term. No planning for anything. Throw out a bunch of tax cut candy for voters. Then make deep cuts in all sorts of agencies, like "communist" public education. Then be surprised when teachers are fleeing by the thousands to neighboring states and local school districts are falling into a state of crisis. Families and even businesses start following those teachers out of the state.

The funny thing is many of those same "lawmakers" view highways as a form of communism too. Why waste many millions (or billions) of dollars on public works projects like roads? Not when the same taxpayer money can be handed back as tax cuts and/or re-directed to "public-private" partnerships to get some members of the good ole boy's network handsomely paid. Oklahoma is doing really well with its one-party legislature controlling all branches of government. We're ranking at or near dead last in every category.

It's a miracle we haven't had a super-spreader incident with this whole SARS-CoV-2 thing so far. Much of the state is, at best, doing half-ass half measures. The funny thing is Lawton, of all places, is one of the few towns in the state taking this pandemic pretty seriously. We already have a lot of restrictions in place, with new ones fixing to go into effect. Unfortunately there are no gates keeping people in the more lax areas from entering our town and further infecting the place.

So, with all that sad crap as a back drop, it sets up pretty well the constraints within which ODOT has to operate. We could have a better highway system and even sophisticated 4-level directional stack freeway to freeway interchanges, just like down in Texas. But we can't have that kind of stuff while our state legislature is staffed with too many short-sighted idiots.

While I would agree Oklahoma has made some odd decisions (especially around dealing with teachers unions), the facts are pretty clear that OK does not have as diverse an economy as Texas. Therefore they don't have the means to balance out revenue streams year after year. Oklahoma has no ocean port. Population density is not inline with Texas. A percentage of land is pre-allocated to tribal use. Their major GDP generation is around oil, agriculture and military. After that is aggregates and health care. If tornadoes created revenue, I am sure the Moore F5 would have paid everyone's bills.

Much of the southeast corner of the state features a great deal of hardwood harvesting and processing (my family's historic business), even though there's been a great deal of consolidation of facilities, particularly after Weyerhaeuser went on a buying spree a few decades ago and bought up just about all the independent producers (such as Dierks Lumber).  Now -- whether it's only the presence of the OK-based facilities that provides economic benefit rather than direct revenues from the corporation would have to be determined by perusing their tax bills -- and state law that addresses whether the state tax obligation formerly derived from the original companies remains for the acquiring conglomerate.  Something tells me OK might well come out on the short end of that stick!   

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 07, 2020, 11:38:03 PM
The Oklahoma state legislature has hardly any big picture views on anything at all. Their thinking is strictly stuck in the immediate short term. No planning for anything. Throw out a bunch of tax cut candy for voters. Then make deep cuts in all sorts of agencies, like "communist" public education. Then be surprised when teachers are fleeing by the thousands to neighboring states and local school districts are falling into a state of crisis. Families and even businesses start following those teachers out of the state.

The funny thing is many of those same "lawmakers" view highways as a form of communism too. Why waste many millions (or billions) of dollars on public works projects like roads? Not when the same taxpayer money can be handed back as tax cuts and/or re-directed to "public-private" partnerships to get some members of the good ole boy's network handsomely paid. Oklahoma is doing really well with its one-party legislature controlling all branches of government. We're ranking at or near dead last in every category.

It's a miracle we haven't had a super-spreader incident with this whole SARS-CoV-2 thing so far. Much of the state is, at best, doing half-ass half measures. The funny thing is Lawton, of all places, is one of the few towns in the state taking this pandemic pretty seriously. We already have a lot of restrictions in place, with new ones fixing to go into effect. Unfortunately there are no gates keeping people in the more lax areas from entering our town and further infecting the place.

So, with all that sad crap as a back drop, it sets up pretty well the constraints within which ODOT has to operate. We could have a better highway system and even sophisticated 4-level directional stack freeway to freeway interchanges, just like down in Texas. But we can't have that kind of stuff while our state legislature is staffed with too many short-sighted idiots.


Not that I do not agree with you, but this short-term vision is the basis to the entire US economy. The entire stock market is measured by the hour; maybe by the trade. People like Carl Ican and others have pushed short term gains fo rso long, that they have even bled over to the governmental sector in many places. Why spend money if you have to pay for it yourself.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

#204
Quote from: edwaleniWhile I would agree Oklahoma has made some odd decisions (especially around dealing with teachers unions), the facts are pretty clear that OK does not have as diverse an economy as Texas.

Yes, there are giant size differences between Texas and Oklahoma. One state has nearly 29 million residents and the other has just under 4 million. The economies and tax bases are very different. But the issues with Oklahoma's roads and Oklahoma's state government are rooted in other problems besides lack of money. A bunch of it just comes down to poor management and very little in the way of long term vision. It's impossible to do something kind of "big," like extending I-45 up into (and maybe through) Oklahoma. It takes a good bit of that vision thing to turning around petty opposition in little po-dunk 'burgs to transform the vision into a reality.

It doesn't always require a fortune to future proof an important highway corridor. There is no secret sauce recipe with how Texas has managed to future proof various highways and important urban arterials. I've seen only rare instances of ODOT copying one or more of those methods on any road projects here in this state. The Duncan Bypass is one example of a 2 lane road that can be upgraded into a 4 lane freeway without having to acquire any additional ROW. The OK state government and ODOT blew it on some other important projects.

ODOT has an enormous burden of roads and bridges to maintain in rural areas that are aging, dying out and depopulating. They need to start doing some serious consolidation.

Quote from: bwana39Not that I do not agree with you, but this short-term vision is the basis to the entire US economy. The entire stock market is measured by the hour; maybe by the trade. People like Carl Ican and others have pushed short term gains fo rso long, that they have even bled over to the governmental sector in many places. Why spend money if you have to pay for it yourself.

The Interstate Highway System was not created with any short term mind set. Back when the legislation was first signed and efforts to build it began the whole thing was approached with a big picture, long term mind set. Not this short term, self-serving crap we have now. I've said it numerous times before. If the Interstate Highway System didn't exist today and the lawmakers of our current day set out to build it they would fail horribly. The project would never get off the ground. That's the status of "America" today at building big things. There's no Manhattan Project or Moon Shot anymore.

rtXC1

For those of you wondering, the only stretch of US-75 in Texas that is not up to interstate standards (besides the HOV area in Collin County) is in Sherman, referred to locals as "The Gap." Reconstruction is currently underway, and should be completed by the start of 2023. From there, local officials will work towards asking for an interstate designation.

It should also be noted that US-75 is also being rebuilt from Anna to the Grayson Co.-Collin Co. border. Plans are in place to begin work in 2024 within Grayson County from that border up to FM 1417 in Sherman, where The Gap project will be complete. Once that is complete, work will shift to the north side of The Gap, going through Sherman and Denison to FM 120. There are no scheduled plans to rebuild the highway north of FM 120 to the Texas-Oklahoma border.

Hopefully, by 2030 or 2035, I-45 will terminate at either the Red River or US-69 interchange, and have 6 lanes up to FM 120 in Denison.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/paris/us75-corridor-study.html
https://www.heralddemocrat.com/news/20190612/us-highway-75-sees-more-freight-traffic-than-i-35-sdmpo-finds

Scott5114

#206
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 09, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
But the issues with Oklahoma's roads and Oklahoma's state government are rooted in other problems besides lack of money. A bunch of it just comes down to poor management and very little in the way of long term vision.

As I've mentioned both here and on OKCTalk, stuff like the Craig County sign isn't due to a lack of money. Making a well-laid-out sign usually costs the same as a shitty one. Which means that just throwing money at ODOT probably won't fix its problems.

QuoteODOT has an enormous burden of roads and bridges to maintain in rural areas that are aging, dying out and depopulating. They need to start doing some serious consolidation.

Not really. Compared to states like AR, KY, MO, or NC that have gobs and gobs of secondaries, the Oklahoma highway system looks comparatively rational and streamlined. You can quibble around with some spurs here and there that could be dropped, but there's not much fat to cut.

Most of the unmet maintenance burden in rural areas is the responsibility of the counties.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Road Hog

Quote from: rtXC1 on April 09, 2020, 06:59:14 PM
For those of you wondering, the only stretch of US-75 in Texas that is not up to interstate standards (besides the HOV area in Collin County) is in Sherman, referred to locals as "The Gap." Reconstruction is currently underway, and should be completed by the start of 2023. From there, local officials will work towards asking for an interstate designation.

It should also be noted that US-75 is also being rebuilt from Anna to the Grayson Co.-Collin Co. border. Plans are in place to begin work in 2024 within Grayson County from that border up to FM 1417 in Sherman, where The Gap project will be complete. Once that is complete, work will shift to the north side of The Gap, going through Sherman and Denison to FM 120. There are no scheduled plans to rebuild the highway north of FM 120 to the Texas-Oklahoma border.

Hopefully, by 2030 or 2035, I-45 will terminate at either the Red River or US-69 interchange, and have 6 lanes up to FM 120 in Denison.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/paris/us75-corridor-study.html
https://www.heralddemocrat.com/news/20190612/us-highway-75-sees-more-freight-traffic-than-i-35-sdmpo-finds
Adding lanes to US 75 between the Collin-Grayson county line and Shepherd Road will be easy. TxDOT completely reconstructed this stretch in 2004 and planned for additional lanes. There is a short 2-mile stretch between Shepherd Road and FM 1417 that is still on the original roadway that will have to be reconstructed.

sprjus4

Quote from: Road Hog on April 10, 2020, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: rtXC1 on April 09, 2020, 06:59:14 PM
For those of you wondering, the only stretch of US-75 in Texas that is not up to interstate standards (besides the HOV area in Collin County) is in Sherman, referred to locals as "The Gap." Reconstruction is currently underway, and should be completed by the start of 2023. From there, local officials will work towards asking for an interstate designation.

It should also be noted that US-75 is also being rebuilt from Anna to the Grayson Co.-Collin Co. border. Plans are in place to begin work in 2024 within Grayson County from that border up to FM 1417 in Sherman, where The Gap project will be complete. Once that is complete, work will shift to the north side of The Gap, going through Sherman and Denison to FM 120. There are no scheduled plans to rebuild the highway north of FM 120 to the Texas-Oklahoma border.

Hopefully, by 2030 or 2035, I-45 will terminate at either the Red River or US-69 interchange, and have 6 lanes up to FM 120 in Denison.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/paris/us75-corridor-study.html
https://www.heralddemocrat.com/news/20190612/us-highway-75-sees-more-freight-traffic-than-i-35-sdmpo-finds
Adding lanes to US 75 between the Collin-Grayson county line and Shepherd Road will be easy. TxDOT completely reconstructed this stretch in 2004 and planned for additional lanes. There is a short 2-mile stretch between Shepherd Road and FM 1417 that is still on the original roadway that will have to be reconstructed.
Correct, designed with "stealth lanes". The outside area past the shoulder is graded to be paved, only minimal work required. Used to be the location of the previous lanes until they shifted the new, reconstructed ones to the inside. Only certain bridges will need widening.

mvak36

FWIW, it looks like Kansas does want to make US69 a freeway almost down to the Oklahoma border, although it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. This link is from their Consult Meetings at the end of last year for the FORWARD program: https://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/LocalConsult/2019R2LocalConsultDistrict4Projects.pdf

If Oklahoma ever decides to upgrade US69 to freeway, I-45 could be extended all the way to the Kansas City area. I wouldn't hold my breath though. KS and TX will probably finish their parts way before OK even does anything.
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rtXC1

Quote from: Road Hog on April 10, 2020, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: rtXC1 on April 09, 2020, 06:59:14 PM
For those of you wondering, the only stretch of US-75 in Texas that is not up to interstate standards (besides the HOV area in Collin County) is in Sherman, referred to locals as "The Gap." Reconstruction is currently underway, and should be completed by the start of 2023. From there, local officials will work towards asking for an interstate designation.

It should also be noted that US-75 is also being rebuilt from Anna to the Grayson Co.-Collin Co. border. Plans are in place to begin work in 2024 within Grayson County from that border up to FM 1417 in Sherman, where The Gap project will be complete. Once that is complete, work will shift to the north side of The Gap, going through Sherman and Denison to FM 120. There are no scheduled plans to rebuild the highway north of FM 120 to the Texas-Oklahoma border.

Hopefully, by 2030 or 2035, I-45 will terminate at either the Red River or US-69 interchange, and have 6 lanes up to FM 120 in Denison.

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/paris/us75-corridor-study.html
https://www.heralddemocrat.com/news/20190612/us-highway-75-sees-more-freight-traffic-than-i-35-sdmpo-finds
Adding lanes to US 75 between the Collin-Grayson county line and Shepherd Road will be easy. TxDOT completely reconstructed this stretch in 2004 and planned for additional lanes. There is a short 2-mile stretch between Shepherd Road and FM 1417 that is still on the original roadway that will have to be reconstructed.
Yes, and even a complete rebuild from Sherman to Denison won't be a headache due to the massive amount of median along that stretch.

sparker

At this point, ODOT effectively washing its hands of the Muskogee bypass has cast a pall over the whole US 69-to-I-45 concept -- at least north of I-40.  Since OK has had Fed approval of route conversion up from TX to that point since 1991, what I think will happen (with concurrence from my cousin the OK county judge) is that eventually Atoka and the smaller speed traps along US 69 will be bypassed one at a time and the route elevated to Interstate standards by about 2035-2040.  But unless there's a sea change with Muskogee attitudes, mirrored at the state level, I-40 will be the northern terminus for the foreseeable future.  That'll give commercial drivers the choice of saving miles by staying on US 69 north to Big Cabin or shunting over I-40 to I-49 once the AR/MO missing link is completed. 

Quote from: mvak36 on April 10, 2020, 06:03:47 PM
FWIW, it looks like Kansas does want to make US69 a freeway almost down to the Oklahoma border, although it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. This link is from their Consult Meetings at the end of last year for the FORWARD program: https://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/LocalConsult/2019R2LocalConsultDistrict4Projects.pdf

If Oklahoma ever decides to upgrade US69 to freeway, I-45 could be extended all the way to the Kansas City area. I wouldn't hold my breath though. KS and TX will probably finish their parts way before OK even does anything.

Fancifully -- if what I surmise above comes to pass, this could conceivably be I-47!   :sombrero:

mvak36

Quote from: sparker on April 10, 2020, 07:06:54 PM

Fancifully -- if what I surmise above comes to pass, this could conceivably be I-47!   :sombrero:
I'd be ok with that  :colorful:.
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Brian556

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 09, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Quote from: edwaleniWhile I would agree Oklahoma has made some odd decisions (especially around dealing with teachers unions), the facts are pretty clear that OK does not have as diverse an economy as Texas.

Yes, the are giant size differences between Texas and Oklahoma. One state has nearly 29 million residents and the other has just under 4 million. The economies and tax bases are very different. But the issues with Oklahoma's roads and Oklahoma's state government are rooted in other problems besides lack of money. A bunch of it just comes down to poor management and very little in the way of long term vision. It's impossible to do something kind of "big," like extending I-45 up into (and maybe through) Oklahoma. It takes a good bit of that vision thing to turning around petty opposition in little po-dunk 'burgs to transform the vision into a reality.

It doesn't always require a fortune to future proof an important highway corridor. There is no secret sauce recipe with how Texas has managed to future proof various highways and important urban arterials. I've seen only rare instances of ODOT copying one or more of those methods on any road projects here in this state. The Duncan Bypass is one example of a 2 lane road that can be upgraded into a 4 lane freeway without having to acquire any additional ROW. The OK state government and ODOT blew it on some other important projects.

ODOT has an enormous burden of roads and bridges to maintain in rural areas that are aging, dying out and depopulating. They need to start doing some serious consolidation.

Quote from: bwana39Not that I do not agree with you, but this short-term vision is the basis to the entire US economy. The entire stock market is measured by the hour; maybe by the trade. People like Carl Ican and others have pushed short term gains fo rso long, that they have even bled over to the governmental sector in many places. Why spend money if you have to pay for it yourself.

The Interstate Highway System was not created with any short term mind set. Back when the legislation was first signed and efforts to build it began the whole thing was approached with a big picture, long term mind set. Not this short term, self-serving crap we have now. I've said it numerous times before. If the Interstate Highway System didn't exist today and the lawmakers of our current day set out to build it they would fail horribly. The project would never get off the ground. That's the status of "America" today at building big things. There's no Manhattan Project or Moon Shot anymore.

Bobby, Texas ain't as good as you are thinking it is. Remember that they failed miserably on US 380 Denton-McKinney. All that development happened in just the last 10-15 years. Also, in my opinion, they should have preserved ROW for a frwy on FM 2499, but failed there, too. The idiots are now building new shit along FM 2499 below Grapevine Dam on the section that is already horribly congested and needed to be a freeway 15 years ago

Plutonic Panda

^^^^ when you are familiar with Oklahoma, more specifically OKC or tulsa, and see how well planned Texas cities are compared to Oklahoma cities, Texas is like going from 99 cent store to a flagship Bloomingdales.

Bobby5280

#215
Quote from: Brian556Bobby, Texas ain't as good as you are thinking it is. Remember that they failed miserably on US 380 Denton-McKinney. All that development happened in just the last 10-15 years. Also, in my opinion, they should have preserved ROW for a frwy on FM 2499, but failed there, too.

At least Texas has a good number of examples of correctly planning in advance. Compare that to Oklahoma, which pretty much adds up to a history of doing the very least amount possible almost 100% of the time.

Yes, I fully agree planners in the DFW area totally missed the boat on US-380 between Denton and McKinney. Way back in the early 1990's when plans were brewing to build the new TX-121 tollway from Lewisville to McKinney they should have already started plans on upgrades for US-380. They should have stepped in to keep developers from building too close to the existing road. Even US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman should have been considered since that corridor is now also in trouble. The planners there at least have the excuse for not being able to predict all of the explosive growth that took off in the northern suburbs of DFW in a relatively short amount of time.

Oklahoma doesn't have the same excuse. During the same period that growth started to explode in the DFW metroplex some good hints of growth were taking place in the OKC metro. ODOT and the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority knew what they needed to do: build an outer loop to serve growth in Edmond, Yukon, Mustang and Norman. They did get the Kilpatrick Turnpike built on the North side of OKC. But all they accomplished on the South side was an incomplete stub from I-44 toward Norman and a 4-lane bridge over the Canadian River miles South of Mustang. ODOT and OTA did nothing in the 20 years since on the OK-4 and OK-9 corridors. So now we have a stupidly crooked and abbreviated "extension" of the Kilpatrick going North of the airport rather than down and over to Norman as originally intended.

Oklahoma has the same problems with other corridors, such as US-69.

Quote from: sparkerAt this point, ODOT effectively washing its hands of the Muskogee bypass has cast a pall over the whole US 69-to-I-45 concept -- at least north of I-40.  Since OK has had Fed approval of route conversion up from TX to that point since 1991, what I think will happen (with concurrence from my cousin the OK county judge) is that eventually Atoka and the smaller speed traps along US 69 will be bypassed one at a time and the route elevated to Interstate standards by about 2035-2040.

One morbidly bright side is virtually zero young people want to move to and live in either Atoka or Stringtown. Both of those towns will continue to age and literally die off. Eventually there will be no living opposition to improving US-69/75 to Interstate standards through there and up to I-40. Such a thing might take 10-20 years. But it seems inevitable.

If Kansas is keen on improving their portion of US-69 to Interstate standards it could force the town fathers of Muskogee to fall in line on some kind of upgrade plan. That is if Kansas asks for the I-45 designation on that part of US-69. They could just as easily say "screw it" and apply "I-47" to that route and let it end at I-44 up near Miami, OK. The folks in Muskogee might not realize there is a possible play to bend a future I-45 up along US-75 through Tulsa. Maybe people in Henryetta and Olkmulgee might prefer I-45 to come through their towns rather than go through Muskogee. The obstructionist folks in Muskogee might find their town bypassed in both directions by failing to see the long game. Tulsa does like to act like it is "Tulsa, France" at times. But if I-45 was really going to be extended up through Oklahoma, which city would more likely to be a stop on that major Interstate route, Tulsa or Muskogee? There is a serious rivalry between OKC and Tulsa. The OKC metro has I-35 as its major North-South highway corridor. Tulsa has US-75, an "inferior" not-Interstate route. If Tulsa had I-45 it might seem like it was on more of an equal footing in term of highway access.

sparker

^^^^^^^^^
If I-45 ended up shunting on to the INT near McAlester (with the remaining section up to I-40 at Checotah likely becoming a x45) and segueing onto US 75 up to Tulsa, that's probably as far as it'll get on its own; there's just no need for any extensions up US 75 or 169 north of there.  That would leave KS free to designate something like I-47 over US 69 if that were their prerogative (unless the Will Rogers portion of I-44 were to be a very long multiplex).  But Bobby's assessment of Muskogee's rather limited long-term viewpoint is spot on; to save some clearly marginal and traffic-dependent extant businesses the longer-term prospects for that town are being sacrificed.  But, sorry to say, OK is not particularly known for innovative or even clever approaches to addressing this type of situation; they simply do nothing and the "can" ends up effectively being kicked down the road for another generation. 

Bobby5280

#217
The situation with Muskogee blocking upgrades of the US-69 corridor is stupid in multiple ways.

Despite whatever happens with I-45 lots of heavy trucks are going to keep on using the US-69 corridor and putting LOTS of wear on tear on local surface streets in Muskogee. 32nd Street in Muskogee is a regular surface street with several stop light controlled intersections and lots of other cross streets. Even if no other freeway upgrades happened along US-69 I think it's still necessary for Muskogee to have a freeway quality bypass around its West side.

As for an extension of I-45 ending in Tulsa, odds are strong such an extension would terminate at I-44. However, there are two possible routes North out of Tulsa for an I-45 extension to take. One possibility is going along US-169 through Owasso and up to Coffeyville, KS (home to a large Amazon distribution center). US-169 in Kansas has a lot of segments with limited access exits, some in Super-2 configuration and other stretches as 4-lane highway. It wouldn't be so difficult upgrading that route. The other possibility is following along or near US-75 around Bartlesville and up to Independence and then bending to the US-169 corridor. This would be a more difficult path since it would require a lot of new terrain highway.

sparker

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 11, 2020, 03:54:27 PM
The situation with Muskogee blocking upgrades of the US-69 corridor is stupid in multiple ways.

Despite whatever happens with I-45 lots of heavy trucks are going to keep on using the US-69 corridor and putting LOTS of wear on tear on local surface streets in Muskogee. 32nd Street in Muskogee is a regular surface street with several stop light controlled intersections and lots of other cross streets. Even if no other freeway upgrades happened along US-69 I think it's still necessary for Muskogee to have a freeway quality bypass around its West side.

As for an extension of I-45 ending in Tulsa, odds are strong such an extension would terminate at I-44. However, there are two possible routes North out of Tulsa for an I-45 extension to take. One possibility is going along US-169 through Owasso and up to Coffeyville, KS (home to a large Amazon distribution center). US-169 in Kansas has a lot of segments with limited access exits, some in Super-2 configuration and other stretches as 4-lane highway. It wouldn't be so difficult upgrading that route. The other possibility is following along or near US-75 around Bartlesville and up to Independence and then bending to the US-169 corridor. This would be a more difficult path since it would require a lot of new terrain highway.

Since such a I-45 extension would be just one more "radial" road serving Kansas City (it'd start looking even more like Indianapolis than it does today!), if something north of Tulsa were to be considered, KS just might push for something directly into Topeka or even farther north on US 75 toward Omaha.  Like 169, 75 has sporadic freeway (some similarly super-2) segments both south and north of Topeka.  And KC-bound traffic would simply shift to I-35 at the current US 75 interchange.  (......advance apologies for veering a bit into fictional here).   

Plutonic Panda

A tad of topic but Bartlesville needs an interstate grade connection to tulsa.

Bobby5280

#220
Quote from: sparkerSince such a I-45 extension would be just one more "radial" road serving Kansas City (it'd start looking even more like Indianapolis than it does today!), if something north of Tulsa were to be considered, KS just might push for something directly into Topeka or even farther north on US 75 toward Omaha.

The Kansas City metro would be a more logical terminus of a Northern extension of I-45. The KC metro is not only already a major highway hub, but it's also by far one of the biggest freight rail hubs in the US.

US-69 going out of the KC metro is already fairly well developed; it's a fully limited access freeway from the split with I-35 in Overland Park down to Fort Scott 80 miles to the South. It's another 60 miles straight South to I-44 in the NE corner of OK. That last 60 miles, going through or around tows like Pittsburg and Baxter Springs would be harder to build since a decent amount of new terrain road would be required. But it's still a do-able project. US-69 could use some widening in the Overland Park/Lenexa area. There is a lot of warehouses and distribution centers near the US-69/I-35 split.

The split with US-169 and I-35 in Olathe is also home to a lot of warehouses. US-169 does not have a freeway to freeway connection there. But there is plenty of room to build a new freeway connection a mile or so SW on I-35. It could dovetail into US-169 near Spring Hill where US-169 turns into a 4-lane freeway down to Osawatomie. From there US-169 turns into a Super 2 grade route with some limited access exits down to Coffeyville.

US-75 going up through Topeka is a more straight route from Tulsa to Omaha. Topeka has existing freeway stubs for US-75 going North and South out of that city. But the big question is which destination is more important for traffic coming up from the Tulsa area? Kansas City or Omaha? Both US-69 and US-169 appear to have more freeway development on them than US-75 since the Kansas City metro is a much larger hub than Omaha.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaA tad of topic but Bartlesville needs an interstate grade connection to tulsa.

Such a thing would be do-able. US-75 is a divided 4-lane highway most of the way. It's a freeway going North out of Tulsa and has a few freeway style exits after it drops to an expressway type road. Now I don't know how one builds a freeway into Bartlesville itself. At best a bypass could be built around the East side of Bartlesville and Dewey.

sparker

^^^^^^^^^^^
Since KS seems to be leaning toward a southward extension of the US 69 freeway, and its roadbuilding resources are limited, that would likely be the next long "radial" corridor out of KC; while some of its service is duplicated by I-49 eastward across the state line in MO, there are significant KS towns along 69 (Ft. Scott, Pittsburg) that could be cited as rationales for a parallel corridor (any roadside revenue from which would remain in KS).  Completing that freeway could be just about it for extensive freeway construction for some time in that state; a Tulsa-KC or Topeka Interstate corridor would require a great deal of pressure (and counterintuitive measures for KS politicos) to reach fruition in the foreseeable future.  If diverted to Tulsa, I-45 will likely simply terminate in Tulsa at I-44 (actually I-244!); any Bartlesville extension would simply be an x44.  The US 69/KS corridor, regardless of designation choice, would probably be a stand-alone concept.

Scott5114

I could also conceivably see a freeway corridor splitting off from US-75 at some point to hit I-35 near Ottawa, then follow the US-59 freeway up to Lawrence. That would also offer easy KC freeway access via I-35.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

Quote from: sparkerSince KS seems to be leaning toward a southward extension of the US 69 freeway, and its roadbuilding resources are limited, that would likely be the next long "radial" corridor out of KC; while some of its service is duplicated by I-49 eastward across the state line in MO, there are significant KS towns along 69 (Ft. Scott, Pittsburg) that could be cited as rationales for a parallel corridor (any roadside revenue from which would remain in KS).

The only East-West corridor I can imagine being built up to Interstate standards in Southern Kansas would be something coming from the Joplin area and headed toward Wichita. US-400 sort of works like that now. But it's kind of a crappy, crooked route with way too many sections already closely encroached with commercial and residential development.

One thing that works against extending the US-69 freeway from Fort Scott down to I-44: it provides little in the way of mileage savings or even toll road savings for people driving from Kansas City to Oklahoma City versus taking I-35. When you look at the I-35 route versus the I-44/US-69 combo it's kind of like looking at a parallelogram shape. Traffic coming up through Tulsa might be looking for additional savings on mileage, time and tolls. That's another factor where US-169 coming up out of Tulsa has an advantage.

That's yet another thing for the freeway blockers in Muskogee to consider. I understand they don't want a freeway taking business from their town. But they have to understand much of the traffic coming through their town could end up being diverted to a better corridor going through Tulsa. And that would be even worse for their local business.

Quote from: sparkerCompleting that freeway could be just about it for extensive freeway construction for some time in that state; a Tulsa-KC or Topeka Interstate corridor would require a great deal of pressure (and counterintuitive measures for KS politicos) to reach fruition in the foreseeable future.  If diverted to Tulsa, I-45 will likely simply terminate in Tulsa at I-44 (actually I-244!); any Bartlesville extension would simply be an x44.  The US 69/KS corridor, regardless of designation choice, would probably be a stand-alone concept.

Repeating what I said earlier, the US-169 corridor going South out of KC is a significant corridor in its own right. That distribution hub in Coffeyville is one selling point in the favor of US-169, as is being a shorter (and free) route from KC to Tulsa.

sparker

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 12, 2020, 09:25:21 PM
Repeating what I said earlier, the US-169 corridor going South out of KC is a significant corridor in its own right. That distribution hub in Coffeyville is one selling point in the favor of US-169, as is being a shorter (and free) route from KC to Tulsa.

IIRC, the US 169 corridor -- arguably the most direct Tulsa-KC route -- was one of those corridors submitted for Interstate additions back in 1968; the concept was "re-upped" two years later when a 2nd batch of routes were under consideration for a second round of additions that never got past legislative hurdles.  Many of the corridors constituting the 3000 original miles deleted in the '68 group when it was severely cut back were not only resubmitted in '70 but actually persisted as concepts until '91's ISTEA and '95's NHS acts, which put national planning -- albeit without a dedicated funding pool -- back in the game on a limited basis.  The I-49 and I-22 corridors were among those considered 50 years ago but not developed until recent decades, as was the I-69 corridor in IN and from Shreveport to Houston and on to Brownsville.   But so far the US 169-based KS corridor (the '70 corridor stopped at the OK state line) hasn't seen the light of day regarding any active promotional efforts from within either affected state. 

Interestingly, the discussed I-45 extension into OK was one of the corridors deleted in '68 and resubmitted within the ill-starred '70 effort; while the original was a straightforward Dallas-Big Cabin effort, the one two years later only included the OK segment -- and only as far north as I-40/Checotah.  Not coincidentally, that corridor was included as a codicil (sec. 1174) within the '91 ISTEA legislation as a future Interstate if submitted by ODOT "........iiiiiit's Baaaaack!".  So the concept has been hanging around for 52 years, and actually federally approved for 29 of those.  But the OK congressional delegation, having successfully inserted that into U.S. Code, hasn't seemed in any hurry to follow through with the notion, probably since the the OK state government hasn't seen fit to themselves cooperate in any manner aside from "spot" projects (Durant, Calera, McAlester), likely due to reasons best elucidated by in-state posters.   



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