Clinching Roads with Ferries

[vdeane]

A question I've been thinking about as of late is, when clinching a road that crosses a ferry, do you have to ride on the ferry to consider the road "clinched"?  A few places I can think of this coming up would be US 9 between New Jersey and Delaware, US 10 between Michigan and Wisconsin, and the Trans-Canada between PEI and Nova Scotia.  I can see a case either way; on the one hand, if you don't take the ferry, you haven't been on the points in between the ferry terminals, and one wouldn't count a road that goes over a large bridge as clinched if they haven't been on the bridge.  On the other hand, Travel Mapping (and CHM before it) marks these roads as ending at the ferry terminal, and I do count state routes that end at a ferry to another state as clinched even if I haven't been on the ferry, even if there's another state route ending at the ferry terminal in the other state.

[Max Rockatansky]

In California I'd say the answer is yes for the J-Mack Ferry since that is run by Caltrans on a cable pulley for CA 220.  The Real McCoy II on CA 84 is engine propelled so a technical clinch would only have to include getting on the ferry itself.  Some states do make it explicitly clear the ferry route is part of the highway where others do not. 

[AsphaltPlanet]

Seeing as clinching highways is an arbitrary game that a person play with themselves, I think if you like ferry rides than yeah, consider the ferry ride as part of the clinch -- if, on the other hand, you don't like ferry rides, than don't count the ferry ride as a requirement for clinching a highway.

[Rothman]

I don't clinch any roads below Interstate highways, but if I did, I'd probably not consider them clinched until I rode the ferry.

Then again, although I have seen maps with US 9 shields in the water, I haven't seen the same for US 10.

Glad I am sticking to Interstates.

[oscar]

On the other hand, Travel Mapping (and CHM before it) marks these roads as ending at the ferry terminal, and I do count state routes that end at a ferry to another state as clinched even if I haven't been on the ferry, even if there's another state route ending at the ferry terminal in the other state.

CHM's creator thought that was the appropriate way to handle ferry crossings, though he was prevailed upon to include several ferry crossings in the Northwest Territories (one since replaced with a bridge) on the theory that you could drive across the rivers on ice bridges in the winter. For Travel Mapping, I've tried to extend that precedent to SK 42 across Lake Diefenbaker (ferry most of the year, maybe an ice bridge in the winter), or the two short year-round ferry crossings carrying CA 84 and CA 220 to Ryer Island in the Sacramento River delta. No luck with either. Those will have to wait until TM adds a system for auto ferries.

My personal view is that for routes including ferry crossings, you need to take the ferry. Thus, to complete the Trans-Canada Highway system you need to take the BC Ferries routes from Horseshoe Bay on the mainland to Nanaimo on Vancouver Island for TCH 1, and from Prince Rupert to Skidegate on Haida Gwaii for TCH 16. Also, from PEI's Wood Islands to Pictou NS, and from North Sydney NS to Port aux Basques NL. But since TM doesn't map the ferries as part of the associated routes, you can clinch the road segments at each end and TM won't say whether or not you took the ferries.

I don't clinch any roads below Interstate highways, but if I did, I'd probably not consider them clinched until I rode the ferry.

Then again, although I have seen maps with US 9 shields in the water, I haven't seen the same for US 10.

AASHTO approved US 10 across Lake Michigan, and there are US 10 route markers both on the ferry and the ramp onto the ferry on the Wisconsin side. However, signage on the Michigan side isn't consistent with that, even though the AASHTO application to add the ferry to US 10 was jointly submitted by the Wisconsin and Michigan DOTs.

[Mapmikey]

Some states consider their ferries to be in the state highway system...

North Carolina has explicitly defined these routes to include their ferries:  NC 12, NC 45, NC 211, NC 306, NC 615.  To my knowledge neither NC 45 or NC 211 have been posted on the opposite side of their ferries (which had not previously been part of their routes).

NC 615 wasn't posted south of its ferry at first but is today.

[corco]

I believe you have to clinch the ferry if the numbered route follows the ferry

[Bruce]

In Washington, every WSF route is legally a state highway and thus I wouldn't count a clinch unless it included a ride.

WA 339 is the hardest, since it's a peak-only water taxi now.

[index]

In Washington, every WSF route is legally a state highway and thus I wouldn't count a clinch unless it included a ride.

WA 339 is the hardest, since it's a peak-only water taxi now.

Isn't there a WA state highway that's routed on a discontinued ferry line, making it impossible to clinch, or something along the lines of that? I could be wrong.

[skluth]

I don't know about US 9. However, the Badger only runs during the warmer months and was even out of commission for a while, so there's a reasonable argument not to include the Badger to clinch US 10.

[csw]

Seeing as clinching highways is an arbitrary game that a person play with themselves, I think if you like ferry rides than yeah, consider the ferry ride as part of the clinch -- if, on the other hand, you don't like ferry rides, than don't count the ferry ride as a requirement for clinching a highway.

This is the correct answer

[AlexandriaVA]

The way I see it is as follows:

Road - the physical surface on which a wheeled vehicle operates. When you drive to the end of the physical surface (i.e. the ferry terminal or a dead end), you've clinched the "road".

Route - a path which may be as simple as being coterminous with a single road, or quite complex (ferries, US routes in urban areas). To clinch the "route", you have to traverse the entirety of it, in whatever form it manifests itself.

roads = physical surfaces. Routes = a series of directions.

[US 89]

I believe you have to clinch the ferry if the numbered route follows the ferry

Agreed with this. If the ferry is officially defined as part of the numbered route (whether or not it's signed as such), it should be clinched.

[vdeane]

Those will have to wait until TM adds a system for auto ferries.

Is that a definite "will happen"?  Not looking forward to the day I have to ride on a bunch of ferries in order to get NY to 100%.  It might also make the maps look weird.

Also, from PEI's Wood Islands to Pictou NS

This is the troublesome one that I was hoping to avoid whenever I get around to visiting PEI.  That ferry is expensive, and you have to pay both ways if you want a reservation.  I'm the type of person who wouldn't want to chance whether there would be room for me on the boat - or wait the extra amount of time before boarding they require of people without reservations.

[oscar]

Those will have to wait until TM adds a system for auto ferries.

Is that a definite "will happen"?  Not looking forward to the day I have to ride on a bunch of ferries in order to get NY to 100%.  It might also make the maps look weird.

It's something I'll try to develop, once the two systems on my plate (Saskatchewan and California) are promoted to active systems. I'm the auto ferry geek on the TM team (lots of mileage in AK, BC, and the Maritime Provinces, bits and pieces elsewhere), so it's something I'm interested in. But basic issues, including avoiding weird maps, still need to be worked out.

[vdeane]

I wonder if TM could be expanded into different "modules".  What's currently there could be the "road" module, there could be a "ferry" (or perhaps a "crossings" module including major bridges/tunnels?) module, a "transit" module, etc.

[oscar]

I wonder if TM could be expanded into different "modules".  What's currently there could be the "road" module, there could be a "ferry" (or perhaps a "crossings" module including major bridges/tunnels?) module, a "transit" module, etc.

I don't quite understand the "module" structure, but maybe you could explore the thought on TM's forum.

[ghYHZ]

Also, from PEI's Wood Islands to Pictou NS

This is the troublesome one that I was hoping to avoid whenever I get around to visiting PEI.  That ferry is expensive, and you have to pay both ways if you want a reservation.  I'm the type of person who wouldn't want to chance whether there would be room for me on the boat - or wait the extra amount of time before boarding they require of people without reservations.

You really don't need a reservation except travelling on summer weekends (Fri and Sat to PEI and Sun return) or on a Holiday.....and even then you'd probably only have to wait 90 mins or so for the next crossing if you didn't have a reservation. The cost of a reservation is the same as travelling without one....$79 round-trip. And that's for a car including as many people as you can cram into it! Only if you wanted a one-way reservation and just in the direction of NS over to PEI would you pay the $79. Travel without a reservation going to PEI is free.   

I travelled to Prince Edward Island via the Confederation Bridge but plan to depart using the ferry. Where do I pay my ferry toll?

Like the Confederation Bridge, ferry fares are calculated for a round-trip and collected only when departing Prince Edward Island. Visitors who arrive on Prince Edward Island via the Confederation Bridge and depart via the ferry will pay only the ferry fare and vice versa.

Do I need a reservation?

Reservations are recommended and are offered for one-way or return travel at the same cost, with a credit card.  Please note that one-way travel from Caribou, Nova Scotia is available at no fee but on a first-come, first served basis. If travellers wish to make a one-way reservation from Caribou, Nova Scotia to Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island, a fee of $79 will apply.

*If a customer departing from Caribou, Nova Scotia travelling one-way to Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island chooses to make a reservation for their crossing and exits Prince Edward Island via the Confederation Bridge, they will pay both the ferry and the bridge toll.

SO.....your best option is to travel over to PEI for free on the ferry.....then leave via the Confederation Bridge. Toll is $47.75.

[vdeane]

You really don't need a reservation except travelling on summer weekends (Fri and Sat to PEI and Sun return) or on a Holiday.....and even then you'd probably only have to wait 90 mins or so for the next crossing if you didn't have a reservation. The cost of a reservation is the same as travelling without one....$79 round-trip. And that's for a car including as many people as you can cram into it! Only if you wanted a one-way reservation and just in the direction of NS over to PEI would you pay the $79. Travel without a reservation going to PEI is free.

Yeah, I'm not the type of person to consider "wait 90 minutes for the next ferry" to be an acceptable roadtrip delay, though if avoiding Friday/Saturday/holidays and/or going outside of the peak season is enough to avoid needing one, that's another matter.  The requirement to be there an hour before departure (vs. half an hour with a reservation) is still annoying, though.

[TEG24601]

If the route is legally marked over the ferry, like TCH from PEI to Pictou, or the Washington State Routes over their ferries, then yes.  If however, the ferry is not considered part of the route, but simply the joiner between two sections of the same route, it is not required to take the ferry.


Then again, I'm so happy I took the Pictou 30 years ago, so I get to count it, I just now need to cross Confederation Bridge to complete the route.

[roadman65]

US 10 you can not clinch now that AASHTO considers the Ferry as part of US 10.  Before you could drive from each side to its other terminus and considered it clinched but now you must buy the expensive ticket for you and your car to sail it to be a full clinch.

However, I guess taking a day cruise on it counts if you leave the car on either side and just ride it as a passenger is a clinch I guess.

[formulanone]

Louisiana Highway 82 is an easy one. I think I waited 5 minutes, and then another 5-10 more for the entire process of loading, embarking, and unloading.

[Roadgeekteen]

I say you have to have the ferry as it is part of the route.

[froggie]

Yeah, I'm not the type of person to consider "wait 90 minutes for the next ferry" to be an acceptable roadtrip delay, though if avoiding Friday/Saturday/holidays and/or going outside of the peak season is enough to avoid needing one, that's another matter.  The requirement to be there an hour before departure (vs. half an hour with a reservation) is still annoying, though.

If it's enough of a priority, you'll find a way to accept it.

[kphoger]

US 10 you can not clinch now ... now you must buy the expensive ticket for you and your car to sail it to be a full clinch.

The second statement contradicts the first.