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Texas roadway design question

Started by sernum, December 30, 2021, 01:48:49 PM

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sernum

Why is Texas allowed to be special and unique in the way they build freeways? especially in regards to their frontage roads. aren't federal DOT standards somewhat binding? its also weird that they're going the other direction of many states that are separating ramps from local roads. is it because they would make a stink if required to?


ran4sh

Why not? Why force Texas to avoid frontage roads when that design is superior to what is found in most other states?
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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Rothman

Quote from: sernum on December 30, 2021, 01:48:49 PM
Why is Texas allowed to be special and unique in the way they build freeways? especially in regards to their frontage roads. aren't federal DOT standards somewhat binding? its also weird that they're going the other direction of many states that are separating ramps from local roads. is it because they would make a stink if required to?
I don't understand the issue.  They decide to spend their money this way.  They aren't building dangerously or haphazardly.  I suppose they may be encouraging sprawl, but that's the only possible drawback I see here.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

There is no federal DOT standard prohibiting frontage roads. In fact, there are plenty of places outside Texas (Oklahoma City and parts of Wichita, for example) that use Texas-style frontage roads. The only thing that makes Texas frontage roads special is that they are far more prolific than elsewhere, appearing even in rural areas.

In my opinion, the most compelling argument against frontage roads is that the land-use patterns that frontage roads tend to encourage are...not great. But that has nothing to do with transportation policy at all, so USDOT should probably leave determining when frontage roads are appropriate to TxDOT and the local zoning boards and what have you.

Now, if you want to complain about Texas flouting federal rules, look at their signage!
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

sernum

I dont have a problem with the concept of frontage roads, but being on every freeway seems like overkill, like on a rural interstate. secondly isn't it substandard to have interstate/freeway ramps be intertwined with local roads?

Rothman

I can't think of how frontage roads are substandard.  I believe Texas avoids RIROs, which are considered substandard.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Max Rockatansky

I'm personally not a fan of the one-way orientation of many of the Texas Interstate frontage roads in small cities or rural areas but they certainly aren't substandard. 

Road Hog

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 30, 2021, 03:00:31 PM
There is no federal DOT standard prohibiting frontage roads. In fact, there are plenty of places outside Texas (Oklahoma City and parts of Wichita, for example) that use Texas-style frontage roads. The only thing that makes Texas frontage roads special is that they are far more prolific than elsewhere, appearing even in rural areas.
In fact, I like to think Texas stole the idea from Greater Little Rock, specifically I-30 and US 67-167 (soon to be I-57).

Thegeet

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 08:47:51 PM
I'm personally not a fan of the one-way orientation of many of the Texas Interstate frontage roads in small cities or rural areas but they certainly aren't substandard.
A two way frontage road is fine, but may result in crashes with exit ramp or entrance ramp traffic. A one way road requires traffic to be on the innermost lane after an exit or to enter the freeway, which I think will reduce accidents. What I get confused about is why in some cities there is an entrance ramp before an overpass/underpass and an exit afterwards.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Thegeet on December 30, 2021, 09:44:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 08:47:51 PM
I'm personally not a fan of the one-way orientation of many of the Texas Interstate frontage roads in small cities or rural areas but they certainly aren't substandard.
A two way frontage road is fine, but may result in crashes with exit ramp or entrance ramp traffic. A one way road requires traffic to be on the innermost lane after an exit or to enter the freeway, which I think will reduce accidents. What I get confused about is why in some cities there is an entrance ramp before an overpass/underpass and an exit afterwards.

I get all that and don't dispute the reasoning.  All the same it's annoying as an outsider having to lap one way for a long distance on the side of the freeway to find an overpass to go the other way. 

Bobby5280

Quote from: sernumI dont have a problem with the concept of frontage roads, but being on every freeway seems like overkill, like on a rural interstate. secondly isn't it substandard to have interstate/freeway ramps be intertwined with local roads?

Frontage roads along Interstates in rural areas of Texas are often very necessary. The frontage roads preserve access to ranch land, oil fields and various residential or commercial properties. Some of those properties existed prior to the highway being upgraded into an Interstate.

Without continuous frontage roads you get nonsense like all the improvised gravel driveways and even full-blown at-grade surface intersections along parts of I-10 in West Texas. That sucks. So do those at-grade intersections along I-40 in the Panhandle just East of the NM border.

I don't understand the comment about freeway ramps being "intertwined with local roads." Interstates with Texas style frontage roads typically have slip ramps that run only between the main lanes of the Interstate and the adjacent frontage road. Over the years Texas (and other states) have changed the configuration of where on or off slip-ramps are placed. In the past an Interstate off ramp would connect to a frontage road just prior to a surface street intersection. Now they're placing the off ramps after the intersections to reduce weaving conflicts. In more busy urban areas TX DOT will sometimes spend extra and build "braided" ramps.

Quote from: Max RockatanskyI'm personally not a fan of the one-way orientation of many of the Texas Interstate frontage roads in small cities or rural areas but they certainly aren't substandard.

I don't mind the one way orientation of Texas-style frontage roads. I guess it could sort of stink for businesses built next to the frontage road. One bright side is Texas often includes Texas U-Turns at many intersections, allowing frontage road traffic to whip around to the other side of the freeway without being stuck in the traffic signals.

sernum

Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2021, 08:45:52 PM
I can't think of how frontage roads are substandard.  I believe Texas avoids RIROs, which are considered substandard.
I never said front roads were substandard, I only said their usage seems overdone all over Texas as an automatic part of freeway construction.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 30, 2021, 10:13:34 PM
Quote from: sernumI dont have a problem with the concept of frontage roads, but being on every freeway seems like overkill, like on a rural interstate. secondly isn't it substandard to have interstate/freeway ramps be intertwined with local roads?

Frontage roads along Interstates in rural areas of Texas are often very necessary. The frontage roads preserve access to ranch land, oil fields and various residential or commercial properties. Some of those properties existed prior to the highway being upgraded into an Interstate.

Without continuous frontage roads you get nonsense like all the improvised gravel driveways and even full-blown at-grade surface intersections along parts of I-10 in West Texas. That sucks. So do those at-grade intersections along I-40 in the Panhandle just East of the NM border.

I don't understand the comment about freeway ramps being "intertwined with local roads." Interstates with Texas style frontage roads typically have slip ramps that run only between the main lanes of the Interstate and the adjacent frontage road. Over the years Texas (and other states) have changed the configuration of where on or off slip-ramps are placed. In the past an Interstate off ramp would connect to a frontage road just prior to a surface street intersection. Now they're placing the off ramps after the intersections to reduce weaving conflicts. In more busy urban areas TX DOT will sometimes spend extra and build "braided" ramps.

Quote from: Max RockatanskyI'm personally not a fan of the one-way orientation of many of the Texas Interstate frontage roads in small cities or rural areas but they certainly aren't substandard.

I don't mind the one way orientation of Texas-style frontage roads. I guess it could sort of stink for businesses built next to the frontage road. One bright side is Texas often includes Texas U-Turns at many intersections, allowing frontage road traffic to whip around to the other side of the freeway without being stuck in the traffic signals.
exactly my point though, dont modern standards dictate that ramps must be actual separated ramps and not slip ramps on to a road that runs beside the highway? now intersections on the interstate are not what I advocate for, but in those cases why not just build or reuse a road only for those who do get cut off with a new freeway? other states dont seem to have such an issue here .

ran4sh

Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
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CoolAngrybirdsrio4

Easy to build ramps to ordinary streets perhaps?
Renewed roadgeek

J N Winkler

Quote from: sernum on December 30, 2021, 11:09:01 PMNow intersections on the interstate are not what I advocate for, but in those cases why not just build or reuse a road only for those who do get cut off with a new freeway?

Dewitt C. Greer, who served as head of the Texas Highway Department from 1940 to 1967, is generally described as the father of Texas frontage roads.  They were seen as offering the following advantages:

*  Facilitating phased construction, since frontage roads can be built first when land is acquired for a new freeway, and then mainlanes can be built later when traffic warrants (example:  SH 288 in Brazoria County)

*  Promoting urban development by providing highway access while maintaining full access control on freeway mainlanes (this can lead to ribbon development, a form of sprawl, in areas with weak land-use controls, one example being I-35 between Austin and San Antonio)

*  Obtaining landowner buy-in to freeway construction

*  Providing facilities for local traffic movement and thus allowing substitution of flat intersections for overpasses at low-volume crossings (until the federal government clamped down and required Greer's department to build what were derisively called "jackrabbit overpasses")

It is often said that Texas has frontage roads because Texas law requires that landowners have access to roads abutting their properties, as if this were not also true in other states.  I have long been skeptical that statute law or court precedent in Texas is unusual in this regard:  as a general rule, access must be provided unless the highway agency buys access rights (resorting to eminent domain in the case of reluctant landowners).  What is often contested, and ultimately comes down to a matter of judicial interpretation, is how direct and convenient the access must be.  In states like California and Kansas, there are court precedents that establish it is acceptable to leave landowners with only indirect access to a freeway running along their properties.  Regardless of the stand the courts in Texas typically take on this issue, however, the frontage roads do ease land acquisition problems because there is no question (legally speaking) that a frontage road constitutes direct access.  The primary tradeoff consists of higher costs for construction and maintenance.

About 20 years ago, TxDOT considered amending its roadway design manual so that frontage roads would no longer be built by default, and had to backtrack after an outcry.

As a general rule, frontage roads work well on freeways that have been built in the past 30 years or so, since geometric design criteria are now tougher, one-way operation is the norm, and X-ramps (the technical term for placing the on-ramp before the crossroad and the off-ramp after) are used much more extensively to prevent swooping.  However, Texas still has a vast mileage designed to looser standards.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

bwana39

#15
I think the key is that the service road traffic in Texas YIELDS to the traffic exiting the mainlanes.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Tom958

#16
Quote from: Thegeet on December 30, 2021, 09:44:15 PMWhat I get confused about is why in some cities there is an entrance ramp before an overpass/underpass and an exit afterwards.

In Huntsville, for instance. It's so that there'll be plenty of room between the ramps and the signalized intersections for traffic to make its way into the desired lane instead of having a free-for-all with traffic cutting diagonally leftward and rightward across the roadway. I think this is called an X pattern, and I consider it superior. I'd be genuinely surprised if it's not consistently and significantly safer.

EDIT: Oooh, just saw this. Is "swooping" a technical term?  :clap:

Quote from: J N WinklerAs a general rule, frontage roads work well on freeways that have been built in the past 30 years or so, since geometric design criteria are now tougher, one-way operation is the norm, and X-ramps (the technical term for placing the on-ramp before the crossroad and the off-ramp after) are used much more extensively to prevent swooping.  However, Texas still has a vast mileage designed to looser standards.

Tom958

What I want to know is how the funding split between federal, state, and other works. It's an obvious question that's especially fresh in my mind after I recently read that history of the Interstate system in Indiana. There, battles royale were fought over individual grade separations versus minimal sections of frontage road for minor roads severed by the Interstate, not to mention interchanges where the warrants were dubious or the spacing with other interchanges too close. often, these relatively minor enhancements were never built. In much of Texas, the routine provision of frontage roads makes most of this type of thing a moot point, though at what elsewhere would be regarded as prohibitive expense.

I have to assume that Texas and maybe its localities paid and still pay for all of these frontage roads except in cases where they're an integral element of the design, such as where pre-Interstate US 81 trenched through various small towns (though that'd be difficult to tease out). If not, non-Texan taxpayers got royally screwed.

Rothman

Quote from: Tom958 on December 31, 2021, 06:59:05 AM
What I want to know is how the funding split between federal, state, and other works. It's an obvious question that's especially fresh in my mind after I recently read that history of the Interstate system in Indiana. There, battles royale were fought over individual grade separations versus minimal sections of frontage road for minor roads severed by the Interstate, not to mention interchanges where the warrants were dubious or the spacing with other interchanges too close. often, these relatively minor enhancements were never built. In much of Texas, the routine provision of frontage roads makes most of this type of thing a moot point, though at what elsewhere would be regarded as prohibitive expense.

I have to assume that Texas and maybe its localities paid and still pay for all of these frontage roads except in cases where they're an integral element of the design, such as where pre-Interstate US 81 trenched through various small towns (though that'd be difficult to tease out). If not, non-Texan taxpayers got royally screwed.
Egads.  There is no way for non-Texan taxpayers to be "royally screwed" by the way Texas decides to spend its federal dollars, which are apportioned to Texas per calculations in the most recent federal transportation bill just like any other state.  The apportionments do not change based on what the funds are used for.

For a while there, federal apportionments were just based upon previous bills.  I think you have to go all the way back to SAFETEA-LU to where apportioments were actually based upon updated system data.

That said, have to say that I've been more out of the loop with the IIJA, but I could look up how they did it this time around...when I have the time.  Apportionments were established on December 14th for FFY 2022 by FHWA...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

3467

Texas also has a lot of 4 lane undivided. They did studies that showed they are safer than 2 lanes. . They seem like a good alternative for rural arterials Inn the 3 to 9000 range.
I live Inn a state that used to be innovative but lost it so I think we should praise some innovation.

Tom958

#20
Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2021, 08:19:37 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on December 31, 2021, 06:59:05 AM
What I want to know is how the funding split between federal, state, and other works. It's an obvious question that's especially fresh in my mind after I recently read that history of the Interstate system in Indiana. There, battles royale were fought over individual grade separations versus minimal sections of frontage road for minor roads severed by the Interstate, not to mention interchanges where the warrants were dubious or the spacing with other interchanges too close. often, these relatively minor enhancements were never built. In much of Texas, the routine provision of frontage roads makes most of this type of thing a moot point, though at what elsewhere would be regarded as prohibitive expense.

I have to assume that Texas and maybe its localities paid and still pay for all of these frontage roads except in cases where they're an integral element of the design, such as where pre-Interstate US 81 trenched through various small towns (though that'd be difficult to tease out). If not, non-Texan taxpayers got royally screwed.
Egads.  There is no way for non-Texan taxpayers to be "royally screwed" by the way Texas decides to spend its federal dollars, which are apportioned to Texas per calculations in the most recent federal transportation bill just like any other state.  The apportionments do not change based on what the funds are used for.

For a while there, federal apportionments were just based upon previous bills.  I think you have to go all the way back to SAFETEA-LU to where apportioments were actually based upon updated system data.

That said, have to say that I've been more out of the loop with the IIJA, but I could look up how they did it this time around...when I have the time.  Apportionments were established on December 14th for FFY 2022 by FHWA...

I wasn't talking about last month. I was talking about decades ago when the Interstate system and many of those frontage roads were built initially, as my first paragraph ought to have made clear. In addition to the items I mentioned, in this post I mentioned the initial scoping and later revision of the eastern I-70-I-465 interchange:

Quote...At the time the interchange was originally planned, two higher-type interchanges (a full directional and a figure eight), which would not have had a weaving problem, were considered and right of way had been purchased for a full directional interchange. However, the Bureau of Public Roads found that the design year volumes did not warrant the higher cost interchanges.

It seems incongruous that the federal authorities would intervene in such matters in Indiana, yet rubber stamp many miles of not-strictly-necessary frontage roads in Texas.

Based upon what I've read recently and over the years, I'd guess that the feds funded 90% of the cost of a reasonably-scoped new Interstate highway, with the state and/or localities funding extras such as continuous frontage roads, extra-wide medians, and unwarranted interchanges and grade separations. If so, great. If not, I see that as a problem.

Chris

Do Texas freeways have fewer noise walls due to their extensive frontage road systems? Some freeways are lined with commercial development, which acts like an acoustic buffer for residential areas behind them.

MaxConcrete

Dallas uses frontage roads less than Houston or San Antonio. For example most of IH-635 and IH-20 lacked frontage roads in their original construction. Of course, omitting frontage roads reduces costs, and this is one reason why DFW was able to build more centerline miles than Houston. See link http://dfwfreeways.com/images/book/ChPlanning/02_planning_controversy_cancellations-059.jpg

Frontage roads are now being added where they were omitted. The $1.7 billion LBJ East project includes continuous frontage roads.

Earlier this month, bids were opened with the low bid of $84 million to add frontage roads to a section of IH-20 in south Dallas. This project will feature high-flying frontage roads which go over the interchange at US 67. This job illustrates the cost of frontage roads, especially when there is a complication like an interchange which needs to be crossed.
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/bidtab/12023201.htm


County:   DALLAS   Let Date:   12/02/21
Type:   CONSTRUCT FRONTAGE ROADS   Seq No:   3201
Time:   0 X   Project ID:   F 2022(153)
Highway:   IH 20   Contract #:   12213201
Length:   2.860   CCSJ:   2374-04-085
Limits:   
From:   WEST OF COCKRELL HILL RD   Check:   $100,000
To:   HAMPTON RD   Misc Cost:   
Estimate   $77,716,896.85   % Over/Under   Company
Bidder 1   $84,674,372.56   +8.95%   AUSTIN BRIDGE & ROAD SERVICES, LP
Bidder 2   $85,403,067.06   +9.89%   WEBBER, LLC
Bidder 3   $89,237,309.74   +14.82%   SEMA CONSTRUCTION, INC.
Bidder 4   $89,661,824.96   +15.37%   FLUOR HEAVY CIVIL, LLC
Bidder 5   $93,899,427.38   +20.82%   ZACHRY CONSTRUCTION CORPORATION
Bidder 6   $94,970,223.68   +22.20%   FLATIRON CONSTRUCTORS, INC.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Thegeet

Quote from: Chris on December 31, 2021, 11:30:33 AM
Do Texas freeways have fewer noise walls due to their extensive frontage road systems? Some freeways are lined with commercial development, which acts like an acoustic buffer for residential areas behind them.
I believe so. I think that noise walls are only used for households, and businesses don't usually request them.

CoreySamson

Quote from: sernum
I never said front roads were substandard, I only said their usage seems overdone all over Texas as an automatic part of freeway construction.
I would like to point out that Texas doesn't build feeder roads as an absolute given on new projects. Just look at the new rural parts of the Grand Parkway and the Aggie Expressway on the NW side of Houston. They don't have feeders, and they were built within the last 5 years. If the project is on new terrain and there are no houses/ranches/etc. that need access, they won't necessarily use them. There may still be Texas U-turns, however.

And in response to Max, the one-way feeders really aren't a problem if you know how to use them. In fact, I regard them as safer and more intuitive than other alternatives in certain scenarios. Take this scenario at the intersection of TX 288 and FM 518 in Pearland, TX (imagery is a bit outdated, as construction is finished on this section now, and I had to turn off labels, so bear with me here):

Let's say I just finished shopping at HEB and I want to go north on 288 (the freeway in the picture). I can either go out the front way onto FM-518 (the primary E-W road) and make 2 left turns at busy intersections where I might run the risk of getting T-boned (plus I'll have to wait a while because the lights are extremely busy), or I can go out the back way, turn south onto the frontage road, and make a U-turn before the light to get onto the freeway NB. If I go the latter route, it is a lot safer, as I do not cross any opposing traffic at all, plus it is more efficient, as I do not have to wait at any lights.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

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