Harbor Freeway incorrectly signed in downtown LA (I-110 vs CA 110)

[mcmc]

What's the deal with the signing of the Harbor Freeway in downtown LA? Caltrans has the entire route between I-5 and I-10 signed as Interstate 110—not as it should be (CA 110). It seems pretty simple to me: It's Interstate 110 south of I-10; it's California 110 north of I-10. So why is it signed as an Interstate in overheads and guide signs all the way back to Interstate 5 (more than two miles from the end of the Interstate designation)? How can Caltrans screw this up so royally?

Interestingly, about a month ago, a reassurance shield went up on the Harbor Freeway right after the Harbor Freeway interchange. The shield was for CA 110. About a week later, it was replaced with an I-110 shield.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that the signs on the surface streets in downtown LA direct traffic to CA 110.

Weird.

[agentsteel53]

this happens with routes 15 and 210 as well.  simple answer: CA is just not very organized with regard to this.

[Brandon]

this happens with routes 15 and 210 as well.  simple answer: CA is just not very organized with regard to this.

Aren't they basically the same route to CalTrans, I-110 and CA-110?

[myosh_tino]

What's the deal with the signing of the Harbor Freeway in downtown LA? Caltrans has the entire route between I-5 and I-10 signed as Interstate 110—not as it should be (CA 110). It seems pretty simple to me: It's Interstate 110 south of I-10; it's California 110 north of I-10. So why is it signed as an Interstate in overheads and guide signs all the way back to Interstate 5 (more than two miles from the end of the Interstate designation)? How can Caltrans screw this up so royally?

Interestingly, about a month ago, a reassurance shield went up on the Harbor Freeway right after the Harbor Freeway interchange. The shield was for CA 110. About a week later, it was replaced with an I-110 shield.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that the signs on the surface streets in downtown LA direct traffic to CA 110.

Weird.

CA-110 or I-110... I, quite frankly, don't see what the big deal is.  It's the same route number for the Harbor Freeway except one segment gets pretty red, white and blue shields while the other gets the green miner's spade.  If Caltrans put up I-110 shields on exit signs along I-5, I suspect that was done to aid navigation to I-110 from I-5.  I suppose a more proper way of signing the exit would be to put "CA-110 TO I-110" on the overhead signs but since the route number is the same it might confuse some drivers.

Aren't they basically the same route to CalTrans, I-110 and CA-110?

Yes.  As far as Caltrans is concerned, both CA-110 and I-110 are known as "Route 110".

[sdmichael]

I only saw SR-110 signs north of the Four Level and that was Saturday. I can't say south of there as I haven't traveled that stretch in a while.

[DTComposer]

I think they have it right, at least along 110 itself. Northbound, it begins to appear as CA-110 on pull-through signs approaching I-10. Southbound, it appears as CA-110 up to the pull-throughs at the four-level, then it appears on pull-throughs as I-110.

This is consistent with pull-throughs that approach other number/status changes: for example, on CA-17 northbound, pull-throughs begin signing for I-880 well in advance of the actual number change.

You could quibble about CA-110 vs. I-110 on signage on US-101 approaching the four-level, but I think it makes sense in a "less confusion for the motoring public" way even if it's not entirely to-the-book accurate.

That all said, I don't recall what the reassurance markers say, or if there are even any posted on that part of the freeway.

[myosh_tino]

This is consistent with pull-throughs that approach other number/status changes: for example, on CA-17 northbound, pull-throughs begin signing for I-880 well in advance of the actual number change.

Depends on what your definition of "well in advance" is.  I-880 starts showing up on pull through signs about a mile and a half south of I-280.  CA-17 makes its first appearance on pull through signs less than half a mile north of I-280.  IIRC, the southbound freeway entrance assemblies on Stevens Creek Blvd sport CA-17 shields.

[TheStranger]

This is something I've wondered for years: is the Harbor Freeway entirely I-110 (thus making the southbound I-110 signs from the Four-Level correct), or is it partially "I-110" and partially "Route 110"?

To me the type-of-road change should be perfectly aligned with the name change, which might be Caltrans' logic, but I can see that being superseded by whatever is the actual FHWA designation for the interstate.  Having said that, I have gotten the impression many of the I-110 signs south of US 101/the Four Level all date back from the changeover from Route 11 to I-110/Route 110 in the early 80s.

Approaching the Four-Level from southbound US 101, the ramp for the Harbor Freeway has been signed for I-110 for years - the recent retroreflective replacement retained the Interstate shield.

[briantroutman]

Every map I've ever seen shows I-110 from I-10 south to San Pedro and CA 110 for the rest north of I-10. All of the guides at the 10/110 interchange seem to agree with this–and I think the sign on 101 is a mistake. I always thought the I-110/CA 110 division was intentional so that this odd spur route would extend in only one direction from its parent, I-10. But if that was the intent, they didn't number the exits properly. And just a few miles away, 710 violates the "one direction" spur guideline.

[mcmc]

This is something I've wondered for years: is the Harbor Freeway entirely I-110 (thus making the southbound I-110 signs from the Four-Level correct), or is it partially "I-110" and partially "Route 110"?

Google Maps gets this quite right; see how the 110 is labeled around Alpine Street:
http://goo.gl/maps/TyVkY

It's the Arroyo Seco Parkway at or slightly north of Alpine Street, and the Harbor Freeway south of Alpine Street. The Harbor Freeway is CA 110 from I-10 to about Alpine Street. Recently, a decorative sign went up around this area on the 110 northbound announcing the beginning of the Parkway.

[DTComposer]

This is something I've wondered for years: is the Harbor Freeway entirely I-110 (thus making the southbound I-110 signs from the Four-Level correct), or is it partially "I-110" and partially "Route 110"?

To me the type-of-road change should be perfectly aligned with the name change, which might be Caltrans' logic, but I can see that being superseded by whatever is the actual FHWA designation for the interstate.  Having said that, I have gotten the impression many of the I-110 signs south of US 101/the Four Level all date back from the changeover from Route 11 to I-110/Route 110 in the early 80s.

Approaching the Four-Level from southbound US 101, the ramp for the Harbor Freeway has been signed for I-110 for years - the recent retroreflective replacement retained the Interstate shield.

You are right in that the freeway naming pre-dates the current numbering. There are three different designations:

South of I-10: Harbor Freeway, I-110
Between I-10 and US-101: Harbor Freeway, CA-110
North of US-101: Arroyo Seco Parkway (nee Pasadena Freeway), CA-110

Freeway names vs. numbers are not consistent throughout Southern California:
US-101 is the Ventura Freeway up until CA-134. Then it becomes the Hollywood Freeway (which comes in from CA-170, while the Ventura Freeway continues on CA-134). Then at the Four-Level, the Hollywood Freeway ends, and US-101 continues on the Santa Ana Freeway (which later goes onto I-5).

Google Maps gets this quite right; see how the 110 is labeled around Alpine Street:
http://goo.gl/maps/TyVkY

I think this is a Google Maps quirk; I've never seen anything other than the Four-Level used as the changing point from Harbor to Arroyo Seco.

[TheStranger]

Every map I've ever seen shows I-110 from I-10 south to San Pedro and CA 110 for the rest north of I-10. All of the guides at the 10/110 interchange seem to agree with this–and I think the sign on 101 is a mistake. I always thought the I-110/CA 110 division was intentional so that this odd spur route would extend in only one direction from its parent, I-10. But if that was the intent, they didn't number the exits properly. And just a few miles away, 710 violates the "one direction" spur guideline.

1. Exit numbering wouldn't matter as there is no number change at the I-10 junction.  (This differs from the Route 17/I-880 switch in San Jose.)

2. All of the pullthroughs on the southbound Harbor Freeway (from its northern terminus at US 101) are for Interstate 110, save for a few on local access ramps.  This seems to have been in place for a while - regardless of FHWA definitions, maps, etc.

[AndyMax25]

Originally both the Harbor and Pasadena Freeways were signed as CA-11.  However at some point Caltrans was planning the Harbor Freeway elevated HOV lanes project. In order to receive federal funding for the project, the route needed to be on the federal highway system. Obviously, naming it I-11 would not work so in 1981, they chose I-110. In order to keep continuity and reduce confusion, the Pasadena portion was signed as CA-110.

As stated on the CA Highways, since 1952 the Harbor Freeway begins at the Hollywood Freeway interchange.  http://www.cahighways.org/105-112.html#110. Therefore the signage between the Hollywood and Santa Monica freeways should technically all be signed as I-110. Hence the proper signs at the SB Hollywod Freeway transition at the 110. https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_003b_07.jpg

As far as the recently completed project in Downtown LA, this is a classic example of Caltrans District 7 not thinking at all about signage. There are many many examples within this project and countless more throughout the District.  I will highlight one for now.

One glaring example is on the southbound side at the Olypmic Blvd exit (exit 22A). Originally the 8th St on ramp entered the freeway as an auxiliary lane and it also became the exit only lane for Olympic Blvd.  The original signs for Exit 22A were correct in showing the yellow exit only tabs. https://www.aaroads.com/california/images110/ca-110_sb_exit_022a_06.jpg
However ther new project widened the freeway and changed the auxiliary lane into a new general use lane WITHOUT the exit only lane. But since D7 doesn't think they just replaced the sign 1 for 1. The new sign looks exactly like the old one but is incorrectly showing an exit only.

I don't know who checks their plans over ther but they need some help. Extremely frustrating.

[NE2]

As stated on the CA Highways, since 1952 the Harbor Freeway begins at the Hollywood Freeway interchange.  http://www.cahighways.org/105-112.html#110. Therefore the signage between the Hollywood and Santa Monica freeways should technically all be signed as I-110.

Huh? What does the name of the freeway changing have to do with the route classification?

[AndyMax25]

You are right in that the freeway naming pre-dates the current numbering. There are three different designations:

South of I-10: Harbor Freeway, I-110
Between I-10 and US-101: Harbor Freeway, CA-110
North of US-101: Arroyo Seco Parkway (nee Pasadena Freeway), CA-110

My apologies, NE2 and DTComposer are correct.  In 1968, the interstate designation was only applied for the segment south of the Santa Monica Freeway Interchange for the purpose of the HOV project.

Still CT has done a horrible job of signage in the Downtown area.

Check out this pic I took soon after some new signs were installed.  This is the the WB I-10 transition to the 110.  You can see how the sign says South towards Downtown when it is obviously supposed to be North. Who approves these things???  I don't understand how the Caltrans crew designed it, received the sign, inspected it, and actually installed it. 

The same thing happened at the SB I-405 transition to I-10 with new signs.  If you look closely the WEST sign is an overlay.  The new sign said EAST Los Angeles and EAST Santa Monica.

[Urban Prairie Schooner]

It seems that less confusion would result if I-110 were extended northward to the 5/110 interchange, given that this section of road seems to be essentially signed for I-110 anyway. However, that would hinge on whether the section of freeway between I-10 and I-5 technically meets interstate standards (my recollection is that if it doesn't, it comes close, though the height of the tunnels may cause a problem).

[TheStranger]

It seems that less confusion would result if I-110 were extended northward to the 5/110 interchange, given that this section of road seems to be essentially signed for I-110 anyway. However, that would hinge on whether the section of freeway between I-10 and I-5 technically meets interstate standards (my recollection is that if it doesn't, it comes close, though the height of the tunnels may cause a problem).

It absolutely does not (left exits and all, tunnels).

Having said that...

To reiterate what I noted earlier in the thread: southbound Harbor Freeway from the Four-Level to San Pedro always seems to have been signed as I-110, while northbound Harbor Freeway becomes signed for state Route 110 from I-10 north to US 101.

Kinda going with AndyMax's assertion, having the Harbor be designated all "Interstate" and the Arroyo Seco/Pasadena as "state route" (since it has a truck restriction) would be the simplest way to eventually handle this, as it seems like the southbound Harbor freeway is already set up like this.  Or at the very least, even if the Harbor Freeway between 101 and 10 isn't part of the official Interstate despite southbound signage, have it signed consistently either as State Route 110 or I-110 in BOTH directions no matter what.

[Urban Prairie Schooner]

It absolutely does not (left exits and all, tunnels).

Having said that...

To reiterate what I noted earlier in the thread: southbound Harbor Freeway from the Four-Level to San Pedro always seems to have been signed as I-110, while northbound Harbor Freeway becomes signed for state Route 110 from I-10 north to US 101.

Kinda going with AndyMax's assertion, having the Harbor be designated all "Interstate" and the Arroyo Seco/Pasadena as "state route" (since it has a truck restriction) would be the simplest way to eventually handle this, as it seems like the southbound Harbor freeway is already set up like this.  Or at the very least, even if the Harbor Freeway between 101 and 10 isn't part of the official Interstate despite southbound signage, have it signed consistently either as State Route 110 or I-110 in BOTH directions no matter what.

I forgot about the left exits. Having seen the opening credits of "Duel" I should know better.

Seems like the optimal solution would be to sign at least SB as "CA 110 to I-110" consistently.

[TheStranger]

Seems like the optimal solution would be to sign at least SB as "CA 110 to I-110" consistently.

Given California's lack of route number duplication, I actually don't ever see that happening.  (That policy does however result in the ambiguity over the downtown section that this entire thread is about)

[Brandon]

As stated on the CA Highways, since 1952 the Harbor Freeway begins at the Hollywood Freeway interchange.  http://www.cahighways.org/105-112.html#110. Therefore the signage between the Hollywood and Santa Monica freeways should technically all be signed as I-110.

Huh? What does the name of the freeway changing have to do with the route classification?

Last I looked, jack shit.

[mrsman]

The Four Level Interchange has always been the ground zero for the LA freeway system.

If you follow any BGS with "Los Angeles" in it, you will eventually be taken on to the Four Level Interchange, if you keep following "Los Angeles", regardless of the highway number.

With regard to freeway names, the four level divides Harbor from the Pasadena/Arroyo Seco, and it also divides Hollywood from the Santa Ana on the 101.  But the route designations do not necessarily terminate there.

In the US highway days, US 101 Hollywood-Santa Ana, US 6 and CA 11 were Harbor-Pasadena, and US 66 Hollywood-Pasadena.  Even though US 6 was on both sides of the interchange, the transition from southbound US 101 was signed as US 66 Pasadena, US 6 San Pedro.  So there is some historic precedent for inaccurate signing here.

With regard to today's signage, even if not technically correct, I would prefer if I-110 were signed in both directions  from US 101.  This keeps the divisions simple:

I-110, Harbor Freeway, Trucks Allowed
CA-110, Arroyo Seco Freeway, Trucks Prohibited.

Also, with regard to some of the newer signage on the 101, I do applaud the correct information "US 101 to I-5, I-10, CA-60", but I do wish that the sign would also incorporate the old Control Cities Santa Ana - San Bernardino (and if there's room they can add Pomona). 

[TheStranger]

With regard to today's signage, even if not technically correct, I would prefer if I-110 were signed in both directions  from US 101.  This keeps the divisions simple:

I-110, Harbor Freeway, Trucks Allowed
CA-110, Arroyo Seco Freeway, Trucks Prohibited.

This is basically how it's signed now from 101 to southbound 110.  My preference is for I-110 to be officially extended to US 101 to cover northbound signage and to make that simple delineation (trucks allowed on Interstate but not on non-Interstate segment), as opposed to it being southbound I-110/northbound Route 110 between 101 and 10 based on the divergent signage.

[hm insulators]

You are right in that the freeway naming pre-dates the current numbering. There are three different designations:

South of I-10: Harbor Freeway, I-110
Between I-10 and US-101: Harbor Freeway, CA-110
North of US-101: Arroyo Seco Parkway (nee Pasadena Freeway), CA-110

My apologies, NE2 and DTComposer are correct.  In 1968, the interstate designation was only applied for the segment south of the Santa Monica Freeway Interchange for the purpose of the HOV project.

Still CT has done a horrible job of signage in the Downtown area.

Check out this pic I took soon after some new signs were installed.  This is the the WB I-10 transition to the 110.  You can see how the sign says South towards Downtown when it is obviously supposed to be North. Who approves these things???  I don't understand how the Caltrans crew designed it, received the sign, inspected it, and actually installed it. 

The same thing happened at the SB I-405 transition to I-10 with new signs.  If you look closely the WEST sign is an overlay.  The new sign said EAST Los Angeles and EAST Santa Monica.

Jesus Christ!! How much pakalolo (Hawaiian for "pot") are they smoking over there at Caltrans?!

[CASIGNS]

I think Caltrans incorrectly signed the route just to watch the heads of sign geeks explode! Does it really matter to most drivers, after all, it is just "the 110" CA or Interstate not really important.

[JustDrive]

Seems like the optimal solution would be to sign at least SB as "CA 110 to I-110" consistently.

LOL...On the SB 110 at the 5, the overhead signs mention both CA 110 and US 101 for some odd reason.