New Jersey Turnpike

[SignBridge]

Returning to the subject of MUTCD sign replacements, today I drove from the Lincoln Tunnel to Exit 15W and made a few observations. The Pa. Del. Md. sign pictured above is indeed gone and the new sign shows Newark as the destination for 95/NJT South. Technically correct, but not as cool as the old sign.

And speaking of what's technically correct or not, I notice the NJTA seems to be making a technical error on the new (supposedly MUTCD compliant) exit signs. I've seen it southbound at Exit-15X and elsewhere. Specifically the sign placed at the beginning of a deceleration lane (called the "exit-direction sign") is supposed to have an arrow pointing up/right (as did the old NJT signs!) But the new signs typically say "1/4 mile", instead of having the arrow. This is not in compliance with the Manual. Whether they have a specific reason for signing it this way, or they just don't know how to apply the Manual correctly is anybody's guess.

Interestingly at Exit-15W southbound on the Eastern Leg the sign is located overhead, halfway down the deceleration lane and has a down-pointing arrow over the exit-lane. Not technically correct, but harmless I guess.

[cl94]

And thank god it was cancelled. People on this site love to parade Robert Moses for obvious reasons but far too many of his proposals like MidMEx and LoMEx would have completely destroyed some beautiful neighborhoods.

Agreed.  Though I also believe the need for these was (and is) there.  Bored tunnels from North Jersey, under Manhattan to emerge in Queens (I-495) and Brooklyn (I-78) would have worked well.

Biggest problem with that would have been the length. At the time of construction, the Midtown Tunnel was one of the longest road tunnels in the world and certainly one of the longest underwater tunnels, with the longest being only 3.6 miles long. It took until the Mont Blanc Tunnel (7.2 miles) in the mid-60s to get above that. A continuous tunnel would have been close to 4 miles, underwater and would have needed to pass at about that depth (if not deeper) under Manhattan.

Returning to the subject of MUTCD sign replacements, today I drove from the Lincoln Tunnel to Exit 15W and made a few observations. The Pa. Del. Md. sign pictured above is indeed gone and the new sign shows Newark as the destination for 95/NJT South. Technically correct, but not as cool as the old sign.

And speaking of what's technically correct or not, I notice the NJTA seems to be making a technical error on the new (supposedly MUTCD compliant) exit signs. I've seen it southbound at Exit-15X and elsewhere. Specifically the sign placed at the beginning of a deceleration lane is supposed to have an arrow pointing up/right (as did the old NJT signs!) But the new signs typically say " 1/4 mile", instead of having the arrow. This is not in compliance with the Manual. Whether they have a specific reason for signing it this way, or they just don't know how to apply the Manual correctly is anybody's guess.

Interestingly at Exit-15W southbound on the Eastern Leg the sign is located overhead, halfway down the deceleration lane and has a down-pointing arrow over the exit-lane. Not technically correct, but harmless I guess.

NJTA certainly isn't the only agency that does that. In my view, the up arrow (outside of an APL) should only be used at the last sign before the ramp departs. I think the MUTCD says that as well if there are multiple signs.

[SignBridge]

Cl94, there are supposed to be 2 signs with arrows at each exit. One is the "exit-direction" sign that I spoke about above and IS the last sign before the ramp departs. The other is the so-called "gore-sign" which is normally ground-mounted on the split and also has an up/right arrow. NJTA traditional practice has often been to hang this sign overhead,   but it's supposed to be ground-mounted to specifically show the exit split location.

[cl94]

Cl94, there are supposed to be 2 signs with arrows at each exit. One is the "exit-direction" sign that I spoke about above and IS the last sign before the ramp departs. The other is the so-called "gore-sign" which is normally ground-mounted on the split and also has an up/right arrow. NJTA traditional practice has often been to hang this sign overhead,   but it's supposed to be ground-mounted to specifically show the exit split location.

I wasn't including the gore sign. I was assuming that the 1/4 mile advance was followed by another sign with an identical legend, only an up arrow. My apologies. I have seen agencies (mainly NYSTA) give their 1/4 mile advance an up arrow, even if there is another sign.

[SignBridge]

Right, now you have the picture. I am familiar with NYS DOT's practice that you mention, but as you see what NJT is doing is a "1/4 mile" sign as the last before the gore-point sign. This is potentially misleading, because as you correctly point out, drivers will expect an arrow sign with identical legend after the last distance sign, as per usual MUTCD practice.

[storm2k]

Returning to the subject of MUTCD sign replacements, today I drove from the Lincoln Tunnel to Exit 15W and made a few observations. The Pa. Del. Md. sign pictured above is indeed gone and the new sign shows Newark as the destination for 95/NJT South. Technically correct, but not as cool as the old sign.

And speaking of what's technically correct or not, I notice the NJTA seems to be making a technical error on the new (supposedly MUTCD compliant) exit signs. I've seen it southbound at Exit-15X and elsewhere. Specifically the sign placed at the beginning of a deceleration lane (called the "exit-direction sign") is supposed to have an arrow pointing up/right (as did the old NJT signs!) But the new signs typically say "1/4 mile", instead of having the arrow. This is not in compliance with the Manual. Whether they have a specific reason for signing it this way, or they just don't know how to apply the Manual correctly is anybody's guess.

Interestingly at Exit-15W southbound on the Eastern Leg the sign is located overhead, halfway down the deceleration lane and has a down-pointing arrow over the exit-lane. Not technically correct, but harmless I guess.

They're (slowly) replacing the older overhead gore point signs with signage with actual arrows. Hasn't reached everywhere yet. You can see it at 15X going NB. I also have ac ouple of examples of this on the Western Spur here and here. Short answer is that they're going to get it right, it just hasn't happened all the way yet. You can actually see that they put the last sign right up on the cantilever for the old overhead gore point signs.

[cl94]

Returning to the subject of MUTCD sign replacements, today I drove from the Lincoln Tunnel to Exit 15W and made a few observations. The Pa. Del. Md. sign pictured above is indeed gone and the new sign shows Newark as the destination for 95/NJT South. Technically correct, but not as cool as the old sign.

And speaking of what's technically correct or not, I notice the NJTA seems to be making a technical error on the new (supposedly MUTCD compliant) exit signs. I've seen it southbound at Exit-15X and elsewhere. Specifically the sign placed at the beginning of a deceleration lane (called the "exit-direction sign") is supposed to have an arrow pointing up/right (as did the old NJT signs!) But the new signs typically say "1/4 mile", instead of having the arrow. This is not in compliance with the Manual. Whether they have a specific reason for signing it this way, or they just don't know how to apply the Manual correctly is anybody's guess.

Interestingly at Exit-15W southbound on the Eastern Leg the sign is located overhead, halfway down the deceleration lane and has a down-pointing arrow over the exit-lane. Not technically correct, but harmless I guess.

They're (slowly) replacing the older overhead gore point signs with signage with actual arrows. Hasn't reached everywhere yet. You can see it at 15X going NB. I also have ac ouple of examples of this on the Western Spur here and here. Short answer is that they're going to get it right, it just hasn't happened all the way yet. You can actually see that they put the last sign right up on the cantilever for the old overhead gore point signs.

That makes more sense. In that case, it will (eventually) be fully compliant.

[Buffaboy]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

[Alps]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

They've found it provides better visibility to trucks. Indiana and Illinois toll roads also use the 25/25.

[SignBridge]

Storm2k, thanks for your post. Yes, as you and cl94 said they will be in compliance once that process is finished, based on the photos you posted. I had thought all the new signs were in place in that area; didn't realize NJTA is still working on it. Very good.

[cl94]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

They've found it provides better visibility to trucks. Indiana and Illinois toll roads also use the 25/25.

PTC uses a longer length as well, but theirs is not as long.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

They've found it provides better visibility to trucks. Indiana and Illinois toll roads also use the 25/25.

I have never heard that. I was in a review meeting with them maybe 5 years ago where they had said that if they could change it, they would.

[storm2k]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

They've found it provides better visibility to trucks. Indiana and Illinois toll roads also use the 25/25.

I have never heard that. I was in a review meeting with them maybe 5 years ago where they had said that if they could change it, they would.

I find that a bit hard to believe. They've used the bigger lane markers since the road was built in 1951 and they've stood by them ever since as part of their enhanced standards. I don't see why they'd want to get rid of them.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Have the signs at the mixing bowls been replaced? I'd be interested to see how the turnpike handles them à la MUTCD. And what is this "mandate" everyone is talking about that suddenly made the TA decide to become a bastion of federally standardized signage?

[jeffandnicole]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

They've found it provides better visibility to trucks. Indiana and Illinois toll roads also use the 25/25.

I have never heard that. I was in a review meeting with them maybe 5 years ago where they had said that if they could change it, they would.

I find that a bit hard to believe. They've used the bigger lane markers since the road was built in 1951 and they've stood by them ever since as part of their enhanced standards. I don't see why they'd want to get rid of them.

The only ones requires the Turnpike Authority to use the long 25 foot lines is the Turnpike Authority.   So of course they could change them.  I wonder if the 'they' in the review meeting was someone not with the Turnpike Authority.

[cpzilliacus]

And thank god it was cancelled. People on this site love to parade Robert Moses for obvious reasons but far too many of his proposals like MidMEx and LoMEx would have completely destroyed some beautiful neighborhoods.

Agreed.  Though I also believe the need for these was (and is) there.  Bored tunnels from North Jersey, under Manhattan to emerge in Queens (I-495) and Brooklyn (I-78) would have worked well.

Biggest problem with that would have been the length. At the time of construction, the Midtown Tunnel was one of the longest road tunnels in the world and certainly one of the longest underwater tunnels, with the longest being only 3.6 miles long. It took until the Mont Blanc Tunnel (7.2 miles) in the mid-60s to get above that. A continuous tunnel would have been close to 4 miles, underwater and would have needed to pass at about that depth (if not deeper) under Manhattan.

Absolutely correct.

it would be relatively long - and deep - to get under city water supply tunnels, subways and the rest of it.  The Lincoln tunnel is about 100 feet under mean high water of the Hudson, and the Queens Mid-Town is the same under the East River. 

On the other hand, the Tokyo Bay Aqua-Line bridge tunnel features a tunnel section that is between 9 and 10 kilometers (!) long, with an artificial island about halfway across that provides ventilation.

it is apparently a bored tunnel (I have no idea what kind of geology exists under Tokyo Bay).

[NJ]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

It's so stupid and ugly; according to NJTurnpike it makes it more visible and no need for putting reflectors (unlike rest of New Jersey highways).

[jeffandnicole]

While I'm not really a fan of the oversized lines either, can anyone actually contradict their statements about why they use them?  For example, I can't really recall a situation where someone stated they weren't able to see the lines, or could've figure out where the lane markings were located. 

I can think of several occasions where I've been on roads with standard lines and during a rainstorm couldn't make them out, or was very thankful I could see the reflectors.

[cl94]

While I'm not really a fan of the oversized lines either, can anyone actually contradict their statements about why they use them?  For example, I can't really recall a situation where someone stated they weren't able to see the lines, or could've figure out where the lane markings were located. 

I can think of several occasions where I've been on roads with standard lines and during a rainstorm couldn't make them out, or was very thankful I could see the reflectors.

I'd prefer reflectors. A hell of a lot easier to see at night.

[roadman65]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

It's so stupid and ugly; according to NJTurnpike it makes it more visible and no need for putting reflectors (unlike rest of New Jersey highways).

Not to mention the fact that it makes you appear like you are going 20 mph slower than you really are.

[cl94]

Why are the dash marks so long on the turnpike?

It's so stupid and ugly; according to NJTurnpike it makes it more visible and no need for putting reflectors (unlike rest of New Jersey highways).

Not to mention the fact that it makes you appear like you are going 20 mph slower than you really are.

I've thought that while driving on the NJ Turnpike. It isn't as much of a problem in my new car because of where the speedometer is located, but I use dashed lines for speed measurement as they're typically placed at even intervals. Longer lane lines as found on a few toll roads make it harder to do that.

[roadman65]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7334819,-74.1240672,3a,75y,252.87h,82.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saVicQ7hoJVijqtjQSJptAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

I see at the time google captured this the at exit guide for Exit 15E was being installed.  Great shot, and also its interesting to see a control city on a pull through sign as well.

[OracleUsr]

Great capture.  I kind of like the new signage.

[NJ]

^^ Perhaps maybe when NJ Turnpike goes MUTCD it will use standard lanes?

[jeffandnicole]

^^ Perhaps maybe when NJ Turnpike goes MUTCD it will use standard lanes?

You are confusing what the MUTCD is about. The MUTCD covers everything road & highway related.  The Turnpike isn't "going MUTCD".  The only thing really out-of-sorts were the BGSs.

As for the broken lines, here's what the MUTCD says about it:

02 The widths and patterns of longitudinal lines shall be as follows:
...
D.Broken line–normal line segments separated by gaps.
E.Dotted line–noticeably shorter line segments separated by shorter gaps than used for a broken line. The width of a dotted line extension shall be at least the same as the width of the line it extends.

Guidance:
04 Broken lines should consist of 10-foot line segments and 30-foot gaps, or dimensions in a similar ratio of line segments to gaps as appropriate for traffic speeds and need for delineation.

If anything, the Turnpike only errors on the gaps.  The current 25 foot line should be followed by a 75 foot gap.  The NJ Turnpike only has a 25 foot gap (and even a few feet shorter in some instances).  But there's no requirement the broken line needs to be 10 feet long.

As far as (E) - Dotted Lines go, the Turnpike has been painting them on the deceleration lanes (and on the accel lanes where room permits), replacing the former broken lines that were used.